Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[Marblehead]

BELIEF and KNOWING.

Yes, the two word-concepts sometimes are equal and sometimes not. We can believe, find supporting data, and then know. Of course, if we find no supporting data, well, back to the drawing board. Or, we can continue to believe without any supporting data. Choices.

[Aaron]

Who is the first? Oh, no, Moi?

 

No, not you. You might be hard headed, but you never seem intentionally rude.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Welcome back VMarco, you know me well enough to understand what my views are regarding your post, so I'll just leave it there. I trust you had a nice vacation, good too see you again.

 

Okay, I lied, I'm going to clarify some things. First Lao Tzu never claimed that spiritual insight comes from the heart, in fact he never mentions spiritual insight at all, but rather he talks about wisdom and insight in a plural sense. I don't necessarily disagree with your definition of wisdom, but I think that saying everything is a lie is a lie, and if it is a lie, then it is true that it is a lie, hence everything can't be a lie. Just wanted to poke you with that last one, hehehe... I have been working long hours, so that's the extent of my post today. Off to relax.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Also, could you please post your sources for the Lao Tzu quotes, preferably translator, text, and page in case someone wants to examine the context deeper?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Aaron

[zerostao]

Heavy stuff you are talking there fella.

 

Your second sentence is valid, I think, if we include the human animal in the equation. And therefore I think I can again say that it is possible for the objective truth to equal the subjective truth.

human animal , yes yes

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yes, the two word-concepts sometimes are equal and sometimes not. We can believe, find supporting data, and then know. Of course, if we find no supporting data, well, back to the drawing board. Or, we can continue to believe without any supporting data. Choices.

 

My point being if the data DOES exist, but no one has access, is the belief in truth still a lie?

[Jeff]

 

My point being if the data DOES exist, but no one has access, is the belief in truth still a lie?

 

No, then it is a theory, waiting for the data. Most of advanced physics is currently in this state. Maybe not too much longer for the Higgs particle...

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Round and round we go! Merrily, on the scientific-method-go-round. You cannot prove a false, only a true, so how can you know a false?

[zerostao]

Round and round we go! Merrily, on the scientific-method-go-round. You cannot prove a false, only a true, so how can you know a false?

on page 11 i adressed this

but consider

the thinker's woe at his own ignorance, despite some great deal of learning, has been a common literary predicament since the age of reason. while many of the mathematicians and scientists kept insisting upon the reducibility of existence to laws, educated men of other fields have not always been wholly satisfied with science's attempts to define the parameters, means, and modes of existence. Indeed, the educated men of the romantic age almost made light of their educations, and favored a return to the senses nearly across the board. unsatisfied with the loss of spirit they were observing in a society becoming colder and more mechanized by the enlightenment, they sought a return to Nature

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjxZHGHL4Y

Edited December 6, 2012 by zerostao

[Aaron]

Okay, lets clarify my intentions with this thread, since I don't want to be drawn into a debate about what exists and doesn't. First I am a spiritual person, very much so. I have no doubt that we are more than just flesh and blood, neurons and synapses firing. We have a spark, a connection to something greater. My point was that in this quest for something greater, we oftentimes give up our own experience with this greater, truer, or original self, whatever you want to call it, and allow others to define that self for us. This self is the connection to the spiritual world that exists all around us. Not a world filled with ghosts and demons and angels and gods, but a world filled with wonder, miraculous things we can't even begin to fathom, nor should we. This self is only realized through introspection, looking within and finding it. When we take a rote path, one written and dictated for us, the path it leads us to isn't that original self, but another self whose creation is already being written by the experiences laid out before us. On these predetermined paths we never reach our original self, but rather the self that someone else has created for us.

 

In my mind, Religion's greatest fault is the one that corrupts our ability to experience this freely, without restraint or fetters, but rather by contemplating our own experiences, winding down to the point when we began and seeing it all clearly and without corruption by anything else. When we can do that, religion isn't needed.

 

With that said, there is wisdom to gain from religious traditions. I've gained much from it myself, but in studying the worlds religions, one message I hear repeatedly from the greatest minds of these religions is to not rely on the message, but rather our own experience, that the dogma and ideology are merely post it notes, the real book isn't something we read, but something we realize through coming to an understanding of who we REALLY are (or for some, aren't).

 

Anyways, great discussion so far.

 

Aaron

Edited December 6, 2012 by Aaron

[zerostao]

something we realize through coming to an understanding of who we REALLY are

which from my perspective is re-connecting with our true nature

and for me the way to find this is being in nature and having that moment of connection between subject and object

and with that union in nature we rediscover our own nature

and nature is spiritual, the nature of nature is spiritual

our own nature should be in harmony with nature

[Birch]

Er, Aaron "...allow others to define that self for us. This self is..." isn't that sort of saying you're doing what you don't like other people doing? I guess another question is where and when do people start doing this (defining self and others). Another one is, when and where do they realise that those descriptions don't really hold much water? Other (new) descriptions might. And, do they ever stop doing it?

 

My current opinion is that all that is very fluid. I've also caught myself in the act of purposefully defining myself in relation to someone else with a specific intent, sometimes I catch it in the nick of time, sometimes not.

 

[Vmarco]

Welcome back VMarco, you know me well enough to understand what my views are regarding your post, so I'll just leave it there. I trust you had a nice vacation, good too see you again.

 

Okay, I lied, I'm going to clarify some things. First Lao Tzu never claimed that spiritual insight comes from the heart,

Aaron

 

edit- Also, could you please post your sources for the Lao Tzu quotes, preferably translator, text, and page in case someone wants to examine the context deeper?

 

Hi Aaron,...seems you still have difficulty reading. #235 does gives the source of the quote. Of course you disagree that Lao-zu said it,...as if you personally met Lao-zu. Personally, as a Short Pather, I found the Hua Hu Ching quite useful,...for Long Pather's as yourself, I can see why you must find a way to reject the content. For those on the Short Path, beliefs are rejected for there uselessness.

[Vmarco]

Round and round we go! Merrily, on the scientific-method-go-round. You cannot prove a false, only a true, so how can you know a false?

 

The way to uncovering truth is by way of realizing the false. Those on the Short Path do not seek truth,...but the false.

 

A New Age purveyor correctly said, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

As for physics,...it can be helpful,...but not for the ignorant, like scientists, who believe objects are real. All Long Pathers get very upset with anyone suggesting that the dream of life is not real,...how could everything they believe to be meaningful, actually be meaningless? However, those seriously interested in the Tao, quickly realize that yin/yang does not exist in the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu said, "The Tao gives rise to all form, yet is has no form of its own."

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Vmarco]

Just learn to recognize what be... that way you know the lies be lies for those who know the truth know what be this or that even if they only know the truth... those who know the lie to be a lie may still ignore what be the actual truth of the subject... they just know one of the many lies about it... those who have the truth of what be know what be...

 

Those who know, do not Gnow. Truth is not known,...because knowledge arises from illusion. Illusion cannot recognize truth. To recognize truth, all that is false must be realized to be false. All belief, all faith, all hope, etc are false. Belief, faith, hope, etc are the children of liars.

[zerkaloipustota]

...

Let me eat when I am hungry,

Let me drink when I am dry,

A dollar when I am hard up,

Religion when I die

...

[gatito]

No, not you. You might be hard headed, but you never seem intentionally rude.

 

Aaron

 

Unlike you

Edited December 6, 2012 by gatito

[gatito]

My point being if the data DOES exist, but no one has access, is the belief in truth still a lie?

 

If no-one has access to the data it doesn't exist does it?

 

Ask yourself if an unthought thought exists

 

Why believe in things for which there is no evidence?

 

That's the problem with religion and the most pernicious religion on the face of the planet at the moment is probably Atheistic-Scientific-Materialism.

 

Truth is obviously Subjective and the Subject is the Self, the Knower (Atman)

[Marblehead]

My point being if the data DOES exist, but no one has access, is the belief in truth still a lie?

What a question!!!! I wish I could answer that one. But I can't and never will be able to.

 

An attempt with an example:

 

We are standing together in the evening looking up into the night sky. You say, "Look! A flying saucer!!!" I look and recognize it as a military flare and state such. You diagree and say, "No! It really is a flying saucer!"

 

Okay. I know you didn't see a flying saucer. But you believe that you saw a flying saucer. You did not see one. That is a lie. You believe you saw one. That is a truth.

[gatito]

What a question!!!! I wish I could answer that one. But I can't and never will be able to.

 

An attempt with an example:

 

We are standing together in the evening looking up into the night sky. You say, "Look! A flying saucer!!!" I look and recognize it as a military flare and state such. You diagree and say, "No! It really is a flying saucer!"

 

Okay. I know you didn't see a flying saucer. But you believe that you saw a flying saucer. You did not see one. That is a lie. You believe you saw one. That is a truth.

 

You believe that it wasn't a flying saucer because you believe that flying saucers don't exist and you believe that you saw a military flare

 

Blinkered Atheistic (Pseudo)scientific Materialism

[Marblehead]

You believe that it wasn't a flying saucer because you believe that flying saucers don't exist and you believe that you saw a military flare

 

Blinkered Atheistic (Pseudo)scientific Materialism

But you don't know whereas I do. The next day I went out and verified it was a military flare based on the remains that were on the ground.

[Marblehead]

But you don't know whereas I do. The next day I went out and verified it was a military flare based on the remains that were on the ground.

 

Ps You will never cause me to start believing in the unbelievable. You are far too young to have that ability.

[gatito]

But you don't know whereas I do. The next day I went out and verified it was a military flare based on the remains that were on the ground.

 

Alien Chaff?

 

http://en.wikipedia....countermeasure)

 

Ps You will never cause me to start believing in the unbelievable. You are far too young to have that ability.

 

You already believe the unbelievable:-

 

Atheistic Pseudoscientific Materialism

[Marblehead]

You already believe the unbelievable:-

 

Not that I am aware of.

 

Alen chaff!

 

http://en.wikipedia....countermeasure)

Yes, I was already aware of that. During the war the Brite's also built model air ports and other model structures for the Germans to bomb. Saved a lot of lives and wasted German assets.

[Marblehead]

Atheistic Pseudoscientific Materialism

You said that already. Are you that short-minded?