Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[GrandmasterP]

Mrs. McKenna might have something to say about that bro.

[Stosh]

His statement ,his 'invitation'

She isnt really the subject- point

(but I figure you get that already)

its that ,many enough folks have come to preposterous conclusions

that only work for la la land scenarios.,

They would immediately drop the pretense if they had to apply it real world.

They put their pants on same as you do but suggest they use astral projection

or that the substance of the pants is all an 'ILLUSION' and never try sincerely

to bring the wisdom of the ancients down to the real world, real people, living real lives, and

needing real relief (compared to escape fantasy)

Sometimes I figure the tradition they are familiar with was already screwey a thousand years ago

and it never got 'fixed' because one is discouraged for throwing doubt on the traditions

they are supposed to support.

 

Im rambling,,

Back to the show.

[Vmarco]

Jed McKenna is clearly wrong

We all use mirrors and other distorted sources of information all the time to come to conclusions which impact our well being and safety ( such as rear view mirrors ) Whereas the opinion of Mr. McKenna in this regard is just speculative and useless noise which sheds no useful light.

It isnt surprising that he might have made that claim though considering it comes from a viewpoint that 'all is one and the same' regardless of how preposterous it appears to be... which invites me to take his money and do his spouse.. since were all one big thing anyway so he shouldn't mind.

 

I love using quotes,...it draws out those predisposed towards ignorance, who judge the messenger instead of focusing on the message. It is always guarenteed that those denounce wisdom because of their opinion of the source, are Sheeple of the most dangerous order.

 

For example, T. S. Eliot correctly said, "Human kind cannot bear very much reality" It is a good quote to ponder on,...so who cares that it was spoken by a deluded Christian zealot like Eliot, who corrupted thousands with his theistic literature.

Thus, just because Eliot was a Christian preditor seeking to evangelize the world into his faith, should I examine his pathetic life while pondering on the quote above?

 

The quotes I use are never OUT OF CONTEXT to the context in which I'm using them. I do not use them in the context the author has,...to do so would be as ridiculous as those seeing a connection between "One millionth of 1% false is completely false" and McKenna's wife.

 

I'm not a McKenna fan,...but a dialogue with him would certainly be more productive than most on TTB.

[Birch]

That's somewhat rude to say "...more productive than most on TTB". I couldn't decide whether I saw myself in the category of 'most' or not but I was sufficiently irritated by this comment (and I think it irritates me each time I hear it) to suggest that you then ought not to bother posting on this forum. Why not get a blog where no-one can respond, or where you can pick and choose? I'd probably even read your blog.

[thelerner]

I love using quotes,...it draws out those predisposed towards ignorance, who judge the messenger instead of focusing on the message. It is always guarenteed that those denounce wisdom because of their opinion of the source, are Sheeple of the most dangerous order.

 

For example, T. S. Eliot correctly said, "Human kind cannot bear very much reality" It is a good quote to ponder on,...so who cares that it was spoken by a deluded Christian zealot like Eliot, who corrupted thousands with his theistic literature.

Thus, just because Eliot was a Christian preditor seeking to evangelize the world into his faith, should I examine his pathetic life while pondering on the quote above?

 

The quotes I use are never OUT OF CONTEXT to the context in which I'm using them. I do not use them in the context the author has,...to do so would be as ridiculous as those seeing a connection between "One millionth of 1% false is completely false" and McKenna's wife.

 

I'm not a McKenna fan,...but a dialogue with him would certainly be more productive than most on TTB.

You've written this at least 3 times to different people. Its your go to argument when someone disagrees with you. Do you ever entertain the possibility that you're wrong? Is it conceivable? You're aware enough to know that the person you quote would disagree you. Are you humble enough to entertain the concept that the ideas YOU cling to may be flawed?

[Dainin]

.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dainin

[Aaron]

Not all vicious breeds are dogs.

 

that's a closed wound why would you want to reopen it? Are you so intent on causing him grief that you would bring up an old argument that's been long done with? One that you know will only inflame tempers and cause more grief to those who participate in the discussion? I would encourage anyone that's participating in this thread to let this comment die here so we can continue this discussion without having those old wounds cloud our judgement. And Dainin, remember, one's spirituality is judged by how he communicates with others. A man who has compassion does not bring up another's past in order to cause him to suffer. Revenge is a dish best never eaten.

 

Aaron

 

Edit: I also ask the moderators to make sure that those people who would like to bring up this discussion regarding dogs in this thread know that there's already a thread for that and to make sure that that discussion is kept in that thread, rather than taking this one off-topic.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Aaron

[C T]

that's a closed wound why would you want to reopen it? Are you so intent on causing him grief that you would bring up an old argument that's been long done with? One that you know will only inflame tempers and cause more grief to those who participate in the discussion? I would encourage anyone that's participating in this thread to let this comment die here so we can continue this discussion without having those old wounds cloud our judgement. And Dainin, remember, one's spirituality is judged by how he communicates with others. A man who has compassion does not bring up another's past in order to cause him to suffer. Revenge is a dish best never eaten.

 

Aaron

 

Edit: I also ask the moderators to make sure that those people who would like to bring up this discussion regarding dogs in this thread know that there's already a thread for that and to make sure that that discussion is kept in that thread, rather than taking this one off-topic.

 

[Dainin]

Aaron, thank you for the reminder. My comment didn't add anything to the discussion and I erased it. It reflected my growing frustration with a certain type of all-knowing poster here (and not just the one that I reacted to) that issues pronouncements rather noting that they are opinions...and that is my problem, not theirs (in my opinion!)

[Vmarco]

You're aware enough to know that the person you quote would disagree you. Are you humble enough to entertain the concept that the ideas YOU cling to may be flawed?

 

Absolutely,...I do not use quotes in the context of the quoter, but in the context of my post. Silly people who go off about the messenger verifies their ignorance.

 

I recall quoting Osho,..."The preachers have convinced the whole world that "you are all sinners." This is good for them because unless you are convinced, their profession cannot continue. You must be sinners; only then can churches, temples and mosques continue to prosper. Your being in sin is their success. [Churches] are built on your guilt, on your sin, on your inferiority complex. Thus, they have created an inferior humanity. "

 

Instead of addressing the quote, a few TTB Sheeple start raving about how Osho had dozens of Bentleys,...so what,...what does do these cars, forced upon him by his followers, have to do with the quote.

 

If I've repeated something 3 times or several, it is because several still didn't get it. Makes no sense discussing multiplication/division if others have yet to figure out that 1 +1 = 2.

 

Of course with you, someone who admits that 15% true is true enough, needs much more repetition. I mean, do you ever read your posts? How is 15% true, true enough? Don't you see the neurosis of such a statement? We're not talking about relative or personal truths here,...but the truth.

 

Of course, there are a few honest TTB'ers here,...they're the one's that say they don't know when they don't know. As in the quote:

 

"Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

 

"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self." Lao-zu. Most on TTB have no desire to awaken,...they are obviously here to fortify their own beliefs,..to make their beliefs more palatable. And if their beliefs become too threatened, they band with others believers in a mob fashion to suppress truth from being too exposed.

 

As I have an interest in how folks attempt to interpret the Tao through their own predisposed personal experiences, instead of through the point-of-view of the Tao, my interacting here is most appropriate.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

Weeeee.... I'm a pretty butterfly!!! <blink> <blink> Oh wait... I was just dreaming.

 

It is amazing how caterpillars attempt to define what a butterfly is,...as if one can become the other,...or even imagine such. But yet, we live in a world where butterflies are defined by caterpillars. The truth of butterflies is this,...they are awake,...and do not untransform back to caterpillars.

 

Butterflies are caterpillars arch enemy,...for the butterfly exists beyond the dream of beliefs.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

It is amazing how caterpillars attempt to define what a butterfly is,...as if one can become the other,...or even imagine such. But yet, we live in a world where butterflies are defined by caterpillars. The truth of butterflies is this,...they are awake,...and do not untransform back to caterpillars.

 

Butterflies are caterpillars arch enemy,...for the butterfly exists beyond the dream of beliefs.

 

To become a butterfly,...all that is a caterpillar,...all beliefs, hopes, dreams,...must die.

[Vmarco]

To become a butterfly,...all that is a caterpillar,...all beliefs, hopes, dreams,...must die.

 

"... but at the end of the day you're either a caterpillar or a butterfly, and the only way anyone will ever have even the slightest sense of what it means to be a butterfly is to become one. There are no butterfly experts among the caterpillars, despite innumerable claims to the contrary,....You will find though that if you meet a butterfly, they will not fit any of the preconceptions that many people have about them." Jed McKenna

 

Caterpillars fear truth.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

That's somewhat rude to say "...more productive than most on TTB".

Hehehe. Well, you know Vmarco. Gonna' say what he needs to say without any consideration of its rudeness.

 

But I'm with you and prefer talking with "real" people rather than trying to speak with someone who is always right and unwilling to see the validity in others' thoughts.

[Marblehead]

... and do not untransform back to caterpillars.

True. They just die because their usefulness is complete.

[Marblehead]

To become a butterfly,...all that is a caterpillar,...all beliefs, hopes, dreams,...must die.

No, actually all the caterpiller must do is avoid the birds. Becoming is natural if nature allows it.

[Marblehead]

Caterpillars fear truth.

Caterpillars fear birds, not truth. There are no other truths for a caterpillar.

[Marblehead]

Butterflies also fear birds.

[GrandmasterP]

Not all butterflies fear birds.

There's the tornado butterfly for example.

That guy gets any grief from the birdies and he just flaps his butterfly wings and causes a tornado.

Happens all the time by all accounts, hence there are so many tornadoes.

Pissed off tornado butterflies cause 'em.

 

The iron vest fritillary is another. Those guys can really kick birdy ass if the need ever arises, which it seldom does.

Birds know how tough the iron vest fritillaries are, there's a handbook or old charter or something; and are taught from an early age to avoid them.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.

 

Actually, that after-though occurred because of this year's events where I watched a Jay chase down and eat (or at least catch) a butterfly on the wing and then about a month later a Cardinal did the same thing.

[Apech]

Butterfly: I'd like to be a caterpillar again.

God: Well if you encyst.

[Aaron]

VMarco,

 

I think you fail to understand the quote. It's referencing Chuang Tzu, not Jed McKenna. Some things I might recommend. An enlightened man has no need to justify their actions. An enlightened man is compassionate to those around them. Those that they meet know he is enlightened, for his wisdom cannot be denied. You have a great academic knowledge of the topics you talk about, but little to no practical knowledge, which is why you have such a skewed understanding of the short path and long path. In regards to taoism, let me be clear, you have the greatest misunderstanding of Tao of anyone here, because you try to label it and define it, when it cannot be. The only way for one to understand the Tao is to look within themselves and find it there. You have yet to do this. If you had I would know.

 

Now do yourself a favor, stop attacking people arbitrarily and start practicing what you preach. Be done with the hatred that festers in your heart, a hatred you deny, but everyone around you sees clearly. Stop justifying your actions, claiming that they stem from a higher purpose, when they are nothing more than the rationalizations of an angry man. It's up to you to change who you are. To close, I want to make something clear, just because you write a book about something, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Maybe if you gave up this notion that you "know" and started to listen to what others have to say, you might learn a bit about the topic at hand.

 

Aaron

 

edited for compassion's sake

Edited December 18, 2012 by Aaron

[Aaron]

Aaron, thank you for the reminder. My comment didn't add anything to the discussion and I erased it. It reflected my growing frustration with a certain type of all-knowing poster here (and not just the one that I reacted to) that issues pronouncements rather noting that they are opinions...and that is my problem, not theirs (in my opinion!)

 

No worries.

 

Aaron

[Birch]

 

Hehehe. Well, you know Vmarco. Gonna' say what he needs to say without any consideration of its rudeness.

 

But I'm with you and prefer talking with "real" people rather than trying to speak with someone who is always right and unwilling to see the validity in others' thoughts.

 

I reckon these people ARE really like this. There's also the idea 'If I act in a way that I think (following whatever model or ideal or dogma or doctrine) is 'spiritual' then that will make me 'spiritual'. It's like trying to be 'good'. IME/IMO yes there is an ideal to strive for in one's conduct but it's (to me at least) a very personal thing. One works with what one has and if one doesn't have it, well, how do you go about 'getting it'? And how do you know when you've got it? Do you base your assessment on other people's reactions to what you're doing or saying? I'm tending towards 'It depends'.

 

 

[GrandmasterP]

'Proof of the pudding' and all that maybe.

Anybody can claim to be something or be able to do anything online, or in a book or DVD.

Lots of armchair warriors over on the MA forum and nothing wrong with that at all, I'm one and admit to it.

My fighting days are over.

What is delusional is claiming to offer something that simply does not work, or pretending to be able to do something that one cannot actually do. Bit like a bald guy selling patent hair restorer or a clinically obese bloke flogging supposed fitness regimes.

OK if they are just fooling themself then little or no harm is done as a rule, but to sell such fantasy to others in exchange for hard and honestly earned cash is akin to sharp practice.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandmasterP