Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[Marblehead]

But keeping ones opinions to oneself is probably close to ideal if one can pull it off.

You keep talking Stosh. I think you still have a lot more to say and questions to ask.

[Bubbles]

I am not Christian so your post is completely off the mark.

 

I don't proslytize religious beliefs

 

My daily job involves me studying philosophy, theology etc..so I am paid to be able to think within various standpoints without believing to any.

 

Your posts are not filled with facts but with sundry quotes and the same old repetitive ideas as Cat pointed out and as everyone who run a search in your 1300 posts will find.

 

Maybe you should consider open a spiritual center and give (online for eg) satsangs so that all the people interested could join you. I am sure you will be allowed to advertize here from time to time.

 

You may try again later Vmarco, if you succeed in stepping out of your mental obsessions.

[Stosh]

You keep talking Stosh. I think you still have a lot more to say and questions to ask.

 

I do , Im just a bit tired , I have some issues to deal with, and some things I need to answer to myself.

Others can do just as well or better anyway for most if not all of it.

[thelerner]

Absolutely,...I do not use quotes in the context of the quoter, but in the context of my post. Silly people who go off about the messenger verifies their ignorance.

 

"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self." Lao-zu.

We've been over this point about a dozen times. You misquote Lao-zu like crazy. Its fair to say Lao-zu wrote the Tao Te Tching, generations later someone came out with a philosophy book and perpetuated the fraud it was written by Lao-zu inorder to gain credence. Clearly it wasn't and the majority of scholars back it up. You perpetuate this fraud because it fits your views.

 

So in every third post you quote something that's not true, but facts drip off you like water on a ducks ass. If you wanted to be accurate you could say the book of what ever says this, or you could quote Lao-zu from the TTC but you prefer to stand on the shoulders of frauds.

 

You live with so many negative preconceptions that.. whups gotta go.

Edited December 20, 2012 by thelerner

[Apech]

I'm not enlightened ... is that ok with everyone?

[三江源]

I'm not enlightened ... is that ok with everyone?

 

no. it isnt alright.

[thelerner]

I'm not enlightened ... is that ok with everyone?

You only Think you are not.

When not you think

enlightened are you.

 

 

 

Yoda movie 7.

Revenge of the Yoda.

Edited December 20, 2012 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

 

 

My daily job involves me studying philosophy, theology etc..so I am paid to be able to think within various standpoints without believing to any.

 

 

You may try again later Vmarco, if you succeed in stepping out of your mental obsessions.

 

Nice defense. The fragrance of inter-faith advocacy was surely apparent. As for my "mental state",...you nailed the confusion you have with my posts,...I'm not very cerebral-centric. Actually, I quite heart-centered,...not in the New Agey way, which is a mental obsession,...but the Heart.

 

Although it is obvious you have no interest in the Tao,...for the sake of others:

 

Lao Tzu said, "To attain pure Tao you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe:

 

The first is the earth energy. Centered in the belly, itexpresses itself as sexuality. Those who cultivate and master the physical energy attain partial purity;

 

Second is the heaven energy. Centered in the mind, it expresses itself as knowledge and wisdom. Those whose minds merge with the Universal Mind also attain partial purity.

 

Third is the harmonized energy. Centered in the heart, it expresses itself as spiritual insight. Those who develop spiritual insight also attain partial purity.

 

Only when you attain you achieve all three - mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virturous integral life, can you attain pure Tao."

 

There is absolutely no way to the heart through the conditions of beliefs. As in your continual belief that belittling me will drive me off the forum, and set people against me, because Bubbles says facts are stupid things.

 

I'd make for a terrible teacher,...I'm not an appeaser or moderate,...I'm not tolerant of things that steps between people and their liberation,...I loathe dishonesty. I resonate with the fairness, integrity, and caring that goes hand in hand with being impeccable with one's words.

 

Frankly,...there are very few honest discussions on the internet. Most likely, as many have said, there may only be .04% of the population with a propensity towards honesty. To make that more clear,...no theist is an honest person,...which eliminates 87% plus of the worlds population. Frankly, I wonder why there are so many theists on a Taoist forum, that minors in Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

 

Anyway,...with all the dishonesty discussions on the internet, TTB has the greatest potential to attract honesty,...to the chagrin of folks like yourself.

 

So, for the final time,...I was originally invited to this forum,....and after I left (approx 6 months), several have request I return. They are not anyone's students, and I am not anyone's teacher. I enjoy dialogues with those capable of being honest,...and it is for them, not you, that I respond to the ad hominem by those attached to their beliefs for their identity.

[Vmarco]

You only Think you are not.

When not you think

enlightened are you.

 

 

 

That is somewhat accurate, but not quite. People feel, sense (the 6 senses) etc., that they are not enlightened,...and actually that is true,...the conditions of feeling, thinking, seeing smelling, tasting, hearing, touching can never realize enlightenment, because feeling, thinking, seeing smelling, tasting, hearing, touching have no validity in reality,...only in perceived reality.

 

That is a fundamental of Buddhism and Taoism,...yet many get upset if mentioned.

 

Lao-zu said, "Dualistic thinking is a sickness. Religion is a distortion. Materialism is cruel. Blind spirituality is unreal."

[dawei]

Religion is as Religion does... Spirituality is as Spirituality does... Everyone posts as everyone does/believes/thinks/wants/desires/etc.

 

Aaron.. bro... a great thread by count... but who is really to judge such things unless they have inwardly consumed both sides?

 

At one time I would say the same thing (when I consumed religion alone)... it was not that I consumed spirituality that changed my mind but that I saw both [all] are a part of a whole outside of manifest... If you only want to pair them off as combatants then we are stuck in manifest dualism...

 

VMarco has a lot to say which should be considered more seriously...

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

why is everyone obsessed with what VMarco has to say, does say, thinks, or believes? Mind you, I am also equally concerned with why VMarco cares about what everyone else has to say, does say, thinks, or believes..... Let's try this: Share opinions without the need to "correct" the opinions of others! Isnt that counter-intuitive and leading astray from enlightenment? To try to sway others? To try to correct mistakes you perceive in others? Sure, it's not like we have anything better to do, but seriously... arguing over the subjective with empirical objective truths is just plain silly. like insisting the names of colors are all wrong!

[Birch]

"If you only want to pair them off as combatants then we are stuck in manifest dualism... "

 

I agree with this, and the irony is that as time wears on I feel as if I can understand what the religions are/were referring to. In other cases it's impossible, as too many misunderstandings and mistranslations and misuses abound unless the use of religion has remained mostly the same over time, an exoteric aspect for 'the masses' who are to be led and ministered to by those who have realized the esoteric aspects- but I get puzzled by this. My confidence in the levels to which the leaders seem to have sunk leads me to say, 'ok, I think I get this stuff but it's really proving to be an obstacle to both people's lives and their leaders' own capacities for personal realizations as well as, let's state the obvious state of many people's physical, social and ecological health.

 

 

[Bubbles]

Nice defense. The fragrance of inter-faith advocacy was surely apparent. As for my "mental state",...you nailed the confusion you have with my posts,...I'm not very cerebral-centric. Actually, I quite heart-centered,...not in the New Agey way, which is a mental obsession,...but the Heart.

 

Although it is obvious you have no interest in the Tao,...for the sake of others:

 

Lao Tzu said, "To attain pure Tao you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe:

 

The first is the earth energy. Centered in the belly, itexpresses itself as sexuality. Those who cultivate and master the physical energy attain partial purity;

 

Second is the heaven energy. Centered in the mind, it expresses itself as knowledge and wisdom. Those whose minds merge with the Universal Mind also attain partial purity.

 

Third is the harmonized energy. Centered in the heart, it expresses itself as spiritual insight. Those who develop spiritual insight also attain partial purity.

 

Only when you attain you achieve all three - mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virturous integral life, can you attain pure Tao."

 

There is absolutely no way to the heart through the conditions of beliefs. As in your continual belief that belittling me will drive me off the forum, and set people against me, because Bubbles says facts are stupid things.

 

I'd make for a terrible teacher,...I'm not an appeaser or moderate,...I'm not tolerant of things that steps between people and their liberation,...I loathe dishonesty. I resonate with the fairness, integrity, and caring that goes hand in hand with being impeccable with one's words.

 

Frankly,...there are very few honest discussions on the internet. Most likely, as many have said, there may only be .04% of the population with a propensity towards honesty. To make that more clear,...no theist is an honest person,...which eliminates 87% plus of the worlds population. Frankly, I wonder why there are so many theists on a Taoist forum, that minors in Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

 

Anyway,...with all the dishonesty discussions on the internet, TTB has the greatest potential to attract honesty,...to the chagrin of folks like yourself.

 

So, for the final time,...I was originally invited to this forum,....and after I left (approx 6 months), several have request I return. They are not anyone's students, and I am not anyone's teacher. I enjoy dialogues with those capable of being honest,...and it is for them, not you, that I respond to the ad hominem by those attached to their beliefs for their identity.

 

 

If you are an impersonal heart centered individual, that's marvellous. But you should care a little more about the way your mind operates because it doesn't operate with the same impersonality your heart does.

 

I mean: your point about unquestioned beliefs hindering spirituality is perfect by itself, I can't agree more. and actually all your 1300 posts sum up in that statement. But when you feel the need to prove or illustrate your point, you could be more careful about intellectual objectivity. Some of the things you say about for eg Descartes, Christianity etc are simply not true because they are based on intellectual shortcuts, superficial readings and have strong flavors of being bias based. What I am saying is you could also care about objectivity since you are here as a standard bearer of truth.

 

Being impersonal doesn't allow anyone to say seriously that NYC is in South Dakota. In the same way, it is not serious to say that Christianity can't be a valid path to experience truth. Since you know about religion, you also know that Christianity is just a general label for a diversity of doctrines and that there can be a world of difference between some Pentecostalism currents and Orthodoxy. If you care to have a more in depth look you will find enlightened Christian people : read Meister Eckhart for eg. It would be the same with some Islamic, Jewish, Hindu mystics. And they were often persecuted by the religious institutions for the very reason they went beyond blind faith and dived into experience of Truth within their own religious path. And this is not an inter-faith statement. Because inter-faith is about finding ways to mentally and doctrinally bridge systems . The fact that you seem to be strongly reluctant to impersonally have a look into this should make you wonder about the real openness of your mind. Krishnamurti 's and Osho's statements about belief systems can also be occasions of blind faith. Krishnamurti followers are just that: followers and they are equally dangerous as Christians. Truth can't be served this way.

 

Now, since you are here by popular demand, I have nothing more to say. Nothing beats popular demand in democracy.

[C T]

Some, like yourself, have a higher comprehension than others. I apologize for your inconvenience.

 

Out of more than 1,300 posts, this is the only one that does not reek of condescension.

 

Yet, its still tinged with haughty overtones.

 

Que sera sera....

[Marblehead]

I'm not enlightened ... is that ok with everyone?

You're in good company. And yes, that is just fine.

[Marblehead]

Funny thing happened yesterday. I was accused of still being attached to my Christian upbringing.

 

Well, yeah, I was raised by a good Christian mother. Her virtues were such that they were worthy of holding to.

 

Spirituality? What is that, afterall? Isn't it more important to actually "live" a life of virtue? Does it really matter if one is Atheist, Christian, or Buddhist? I think the more important question is how does one interact with others and whether or not they are at peace with their "self". I think that in Taoist thought that would be called something like being true to ones true nature.

[Jetsun]

I think if your brought up in a Christian culture its hard not to be attached to your Christian upbringing, I was with one of my friends daughters recently who can only just talk and she got a doll and started preciously cradling it saying "baby Jesus baby Jesus" and her parents aren't the slightest bit religious and don't even have a bible. The story of Jesus is one of the most powerful tales we are told as children which contribute to the formation of our personalities, its unlikely that reading the Tao Te Ching as an adult will have the same influence even if you consciously regard it as more important.

[Aaron]

Nice defense. The fragrance of inter-faith advocacy was surely apparent. As for my "mental state",...you nailed the confusion you have with my posts,...I'm not very cerebral-centric. Actually, I quite heart-centered,...not in the New Agey way, which is a mental obsession,...but the Heart.

 

Although it is obvious you have no interest in the Tao,...for the sake of others:

 

Lao Tzu said, "To attain pure Tao you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe:

 

The first is the earth energy. Centered in the belly, itexpresses itself as sexuality. Those who cultivate and master the physical energy attain partial purity;

 

Second is the heaven energy. Centered in the mind, it expresses itself as knowledge and wisdom. Those whose minds merge with the Universal Mind also attain partial purity.

 

Third is the harmonized energy. Centered in the heart, it expresses itself as spiritual insight. Those who develop spiritual insight also attain partial purity.

 

Only when you attain you achieve all three - mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virturous integral life, can you attain pure Tao."

 

There is absolutely no way to the heart through the conditions of beliefs. As in your continual belief that belittling me will drive me off the forum, and set people against me, because Bubbles says facts are stupid things.

 

I'd make for a terrible teacher,...I'm not an appeaser or moderate,...I'm not tolerant of things that steps between people and their liberation,...I loathe dishonesty. I resonate with the fairness, integrity, and caring that goes hand in hand with being impeccable with one's words.

 

Frankly,...there are very few honest discussions on the internet. Most likely, as many have said, there may only be .04% of the population with a propensity towards honesty. To make that more clear,...no theist is an honest person,...which eliminates 87% plus of the worlds population. Frankly, I wonder why there are so many theists on a Taoist forum, that minors in Buddhism.

http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

 

Anyway,...with all the dishonesty discussions on the internet, TTB has the greatest potential to attract honesty,...to the chagrin of folks like yourself.

 

So, for the final time,...I was originally invited to this forum,....and after I left (approx 6 months), several have request I return. They are not anyone's students, and I am not anyone's teacher. I enjoy dialogues with those capable of being honest,...and it is for them, not you, that I respond to the ad hominem by those attached to their beliefs for their identity.

 

A few things I'll address about your posts and your rationalizations regarding compassion, enlightenment, etc. First, why do you use the Hua Hu Ching as a source when you obviously don't believe anything it says? You take one quote and use it like it describes the whole teachings of the book. It really brings into question the validity of all your quotes. If you're going to take things out of context, then maybe you should just say, "don't trust anything I quote to be true in the context I use it in."

 

Some things I found amazing about the Hua Hu Ching, first it says the way to enlightenment is through service to others, second it says that enlightenment is within all of us, third it says that we should avoid all extreme religions and ideologies. Now I think the that would include your rather extreme "the short path" religion.

 

You're really a piece of work. Didn't you expect anyone to go out and actually read the Hua Hu Ching? Did you think you would be able to go on and on misquoting the text without anyone calling attention to you or mentioning that using it and acting the way you do is the highest form of hypocrisy.

 

Lastly, almost every scholar on the face of the earth, east and west, agree that the Hua Hu Ching was never written by Lao Tzu, it wasn't even written until nearly 600 c.e. which means nearly a thousand years after the death of Lao Tzu. It was written at the time that Buddhism became popular in China and most likely (in most scholar's opinion) was written to support the Taoist's claim that Lao Tzu went to India to teach Buddha about enlightenment. In fact the book was actually a dialogue between a prince and master (three guesses who the prince was). You really don't do much research on your sources do you?

 

Anyways, I'll repeat this general text every time you quote the Hua Hu Ching on this site as a source for Lao Tzu, pointing out that you're quoting out of context and that the book's a forgery. I would recommend you stop using it, because I can pull out numerous passages that tell people to act in a completely opposite way from what you're advising them. Got to go to work. Bye.

 

Aaron

[C T]

Isn't it more important to actually "live" a life of virtue? Does it really matter if one is Atheist, Christian, or Buddhist? I think the more important question is how does one interact with others and whether or not they are at peace with their "self". I think that in Taoist thought that would be called something like being true to ones true nature.

 

Spot on, MH. Saying this even at the risk of Marco's labeling that only sheeples agree with one another.

[Apech]

Spot on, MH. Saying this even at the risk of Marco's labeling that only sheeples agree with one another.

 

Baaa... I am a sheeple then cos I agree ...

[C T]

Baaa... I am a sheeple then cos I agree ...

 

Baah... baaaah...

 

Baaa... bah?

 

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You guys. I already told Vmarco that I wasn't afraid of him.

[Vmarco]

If you are an impersonal heart centered individual, that's marvellous. But you should care a little more about the way your mind operates because it doesn't operate with the same impersonality your heart does.

 

I mean: your point about unquestioned beliefs hindering spirituality is perfect by itself, I can't agree more. and actually all your 1300 posts sum up in that statement. But when you feel the need to prove or illustrate your point, you could be more careful about intellectual objectivity. Some of the things you say about for eg Descartes, Christianity etc are simply not true because they are based on intellectual shortcuts, superficial readings and have strong flavors of being bias based. What I am saying is you could also care about objectivity since you are here as a standard bearer of truth.

 

it is not serious to say that Christianity can't be a valid path to experience truth. Since you know about religion, you also know that Christianity is just a general label for a diversity of doctrines and that there can be a world of difference between some Pentecostalism currents and Orthodoxy. If you care to have a more in depth look you will find enlightened Christian people : read Meister Eckhart for eg. It would be the same with some Islamic, Jewish, Hindu mystics.

 

 

The Heart is an upsetting subject for most,...as most believe they are acting from a Heart space, when in reality they are pivoting from mental, form, feeling, etc. Although Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion said that form, feeling, discrimination, are empty (Heart Sutra, which many agree was composed in Taoist China), we should not believe it, but attempt to disprove it. (The Heart sutra is about how a Compassionate person sees).

 

Real compassion is intolerant of all religion,...because religion is a set of beliefs that step between people and their direct experience. A bodhisattva, through uncovered compassion, forgoes enlightenment, and focuses on the liberation of all sentient beings. That is to say, the liberation of all beings from the delusion of sentience, or 6 senses.

 

Of course, those who cling to their 6 senses for their identity are likely condemn such an uncovering. As

Lemuel K. Washburn correctly said, "Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion."

 

No belief is true! In the belief state, it is understandable that people cherish the conditions of their beliefs,...however, conditions cannot enter the Unconditional,...it is impossible. No belief can enter the Heart. No theist can enter the Heart. No Christian, Muslim or Jew can enter the Heart. Beliefs are not who you are,...they are who you think you are.

 

Although Meister Eckhart is considered enlightened by the caterpillars, Meister Eckhart was still a caterpillar,...not a butterfly. Although it has been suggested that Teresa of Avila may have made the breakthrough to full realization,...as she ceased reading and writing religious material,...but Christians don't want to discuss that.

 

Be cautious of anyone promoting inter-faith movements, such as Thich Nhat Hanh's Buddhism. Yes, the Bible teaches, "faith is a substance hoped for"....and their Sheeple believe it. But simply ponder on it, and see how UNSPIRITUAL and dishonest such a statement is.

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

 

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present.

 

Look at Christian love. Christian love is often considered the highest love, but that too is merely a conditional love. To better understand this type of love, simply consider the Great Love Chapter of Christendom, Corinthians 13; for example, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is more commitment orientated then fleeting, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

the Hua Hu Ching, first it says the way to enlightenment is through service to others,

Aaron

 

What is "service" to others? Is service to others appeasing, moderation, and the cuddling of suffering? Is it conditional, hope based compassion?

 

What is compassion? Is it to anesthesize, distract, pander, deny, disconnect, disempower, divert? Where's the compassion in that?

 

Does compassion add more things to step between sentient beings and their experience, or less?

 

Over and over and over I've said that I do not use quotes in the context the author used,...yet you continue to take offense with it. I do not support nor unsupport the authors of the quotes I use,...I use them to separate me from the content of the context of what I'm pointing to in my posts. They are used as a collage, to present a point of view. When you see a collage, do you get all bent out of shape into near hysterics because some collection of cuttings are presenting a different idea than originally intended. Is your life that anal.

[ShenLung]

This thread has become rather taxing to follow for the last few days ... nothing really usefull or interesting being said. I'm going for a drink. Anyone else want anything? coffe, tea, poison?