Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[i am]

Tea for me! Thanks.

[Apech]

This thread has become rather taxing to follow for the last few days ... nothing really usefull or interesting being said. I'm going for a drink. Anyone else want anything? coffe, tea, poison?

 

Got any hemlock?

[ShenLung]

Tea for me! Thanks.

 

 

Somewhere around 1160-70 ish the tea plant began to be cultivated in Japan. A particular sect began incorporating tea in their meditative practices intended to promote spontaneous enlightenment. Chan do began to permeate the culture, and eventually even persons who were not pursuing this path incorporated the tea ceremony as a significant part of their lives.

 

Tea is good, and good tea is excellent! I have one elixir that incorporates equal parts of fresh tea leaves, ma huang, and yarrow flowers, powdered, then mixed with hot water in a jar, then sealed tightly to prevent the vapors from escaping. After a few minutes, the lid may be removed, and the infusing drunk: this thins the blood, speeds the thoughts and actions, and enhances strength. Useful for athletes and warriors .. well, not athletes so much anymore; they call it 'doping'

 

Perhaps just a few drops of peppermint oil then, to calm the nerves and settle the stomach?

 

(edit, wretched spelling errors)

Edited December 20, 2012 by ShenLung

[Bubbles]

The Heart is an upsetting subject for most,...as most believe they are acting from a Heart space, when in reality they are pivoting from mental, form, feeling, etc. Although Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion said that form, feeling, discrimination, are empty (Heart Sutra, which many agree was composed in Taoist China), we should not believe it, but attempt to disprove it. (The Heart sutra is about how a Compassionate person sees).

 

Real compassion is intolerant of all religion,...because religion is a set of beliefs that step between people and their direct experience. A bodhisattva, through uncovered compassion, forgoes enlightenment, and focuses on the liberation of all sentient beings. That is to say, the liberation of all beings from the delusion of sentience, or 6 senses.

 

Of course, those who cling to their 6 senses for their identity are likely condemn such an uncovering. As

Lemuel K. Washburn correctly said, "Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion."

 

No belief is true! In the belief state, it is understandable that people cherish the conditions of their beliefs,...however, conditions cannot enter the Unconditional,...it is impossible. No belief can enter the Heart. No theist can enter the Heart. No Christian, Muslim or Jew can enter the Heart. Beliefs are not who you are,...they are who you think you are.

 

Although Meister Eckhart is considered enlightened by the caterpillars, Meister Eckhart was still a caterpillar,...not a butterfly. Although it has been suggested that Teresa of Avila may have made the breakthrough to full realization,...as she ceased reading and writing religious material,...but Christians don't want to discuss that.

 

Be cautious of anyone promoting inter-faith movements, such as Thich Nhat Hanh's Buddhism. Yes, the Bible teaches, "faith is a substance hoped for"....and their Sheeple believe it. But simply ponder on it, and see how UNSPIRITUAL and dishonest such a statement is.

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

 

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present.

 

Look at Christian love. Christian love is often considered the highest love, but that too is merely a conditional love. To better understand this type of love, simply consider the Great Love Chapter of Christendom, Corinthians 13; for example, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7. Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is more commitment orientated then fleeting, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs.

 

 

These are gratuitous comments and vague generalizations given that you haven’t carefully read Meister Eckhart and don’t want to.

The same about "belief". A throughout analysis of what belief actually is would show that there are different types of beliefs and that no functional human mind could go without (I am quite sure you believe your car is outside when you take your car keys before going out your house/apartment; and if you found your car, your belief was true). So what belief are we talking about here when it comes to our present discussion? All this things are not as simple as sweeping generalizations make them appear.

 

The answer you made to Aaron is all is needed to understand the problem.

 

When you use quotes to support your viewpoint, you strip out the context. You expect people to take them as they are: an illustration of your opinion. So your opinion stands alone here and by itself, the quotes are just here to flower the scene. They can’t give it support.

 

In the same way, when you use quotes (without context and throughout analysis of them) to disprove a point, do you realize that this also cancel the impact of quote in the refutation you want to make? If you take 1 Cor 13:7 out of context, without any careful study of Paul language in the original greek, in order to show that Christian love (from which current?) is only conditional love, you are showing nothing. You are just sharing a personal subjective opinion about what you believe Christian love to be. And it is the same with any text from any spiritual or philosophical tradition you are using.

 

This is the reason why I seldom engage in any debate at TTB about philosophical points although there are plethora of occasions. I know what it takes to be objective, precise and honest when talking about something. It takes hours of work and pondering. When people talk about practice, it is the same. Either you know what you are talking about because you have actually put hours in it, either it is empty talk.

Edited December 20, 2012 by bubbles

[Bubbles]

This thread has become rather taxing to follow for the last few days ... nothing really usefull or interesting being said. I'm going for a drink. Anyone else want anything? coffe, tea, poison?

 

Feel free to make any meaningful contributions to the thread. I am out of it.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited December 20, 2012 by bubbles

[Vmarco]

These are gratuitous comments and vague generalizations given that you haven’t carefully read Meister Eckhart and don’t want to.

The same about "belief". A throughout analysis of what belief actually is would show that there are different types of beliefs and that no functional human mind could go without (I am quite sure you believe your car is outside when you take your car keys before going out your house/apartment; and if you found your car, your belief was true). So what belief are we talking about here when it comes to our present discussion? All this things are not as simple as sweeping generalizations make them appear.

 

The answer you made to Aaron is all is needed to understand the problem.

 

When you use quotes to support your viewpoint, you strip out the context. You expect people to take them as they are: an illustration of your opinion. So your opinion stands alone here and by itself, the quotes are just here to flower the scene. They can’t give it support.

 

In the same way, when you use quotes (without context and throughout analysis of them) to disprove a point, do you realize that this also cancel the impact of quote in the refutation you want to make? If you take 1 Cor 13:7 out of context, without any careful study of Paul language in the original greek, in order to show that Christian love (from which current?) is only conditional love, you are showing nothing. You are just sharing a personal subjective opinion about what you believe Christian love to be. And it is the same with any text from any spiritual or philosophical tradition you are using.

 

 

The discussion of the mass murderer Paul if another subject,...one of which I've won international recognition among Religious Studies scholars. As for Meister Eckhart,...if you take the Sermons of Master Eckhart and compare them to the Heart sutra in a non-predisposed way, it will be clear that Eckhart was, in your jargon, mentally obsessed. Nothing in Master Eckhart's sermons points to enlightenment, except for pointing to what is not enlightenment.

 

If you are desireous to support the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of Christians brewed beliefs,...which is the bottom line of "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things",...then that of course is your prerogative. It simply says hat you have no interest in waking up,...of uncovering prajnaparamita,...or as Lao-zu would say in this instance, to cease your coming and going.

 

"the Tao doesn't come and go." Lao-zu. The Heart suta points to how to realize coming and going. Master Eckhart pointed to the delusion of making coming and going a life-long mystical diversion from truth.

 

As Jed McKenna correctly said, "99.9% of the World's so-called wisdom, East and West, for the purposes of awakening, is about as useful as a glass of warm spit with a hair in it."

[Apech]

I feel like I'm sitting in a bar with some very drunk but erudite people who won't stop talking ... as if they think being clever is the same as being intelligent ... I dare not join in as my milk-shake would curdle.

[ShenLung]

Got any hemlock?

 

No ... but I do have yarrow, which may look similar in some aspects, but far less dangerous. Prescribing a tea made of hemlock for disagreable philosophies is a horrible thing for a society to do. Oddly enough, hemlock does have some medicinal applications, as a weak tea of the roots can aleviate some of the effects of paralytic toxins such as experienced in tetanus infection. It is somewhat narcotic as well ... but I can't really recommend it, as concentrations in individual specimins are nearly impossible to judge, and the dose needed to treat is so close to the dose needed to kill. Extreme circumstances, maybe.

 

Which leads us back on topic, I hope: many medicines, inapropriately used are poisonous, and the same can be said for religeous beliefs. If the person administering the cure does not know what is good for what, it would be better not to practice. The body's ability to naturally heal itself, and the spirit's ability to naturally seek enlightenment work well with little aid from either type of medicine; often, the most a physician should do is provide comfort while the process is taking place.

[三江源]

I would find it useful if the people that kept asking VMarco to return to the forum, stepped up and showed themselves and explained what it is that motivated them. Are they in this discussion, or to be found here discussing with VMarco?

 

 

Those of you whose request for VMarco's presence is being granted.. please step forward and provide some balance to the conversation.

 

bubbles is completely right afaic : quotations out of context are like statistics.. endlessly manipulatable and therefore to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..

[konchog uma]

this thread was on shaky ground from the beginning, but some people, like vmarco, ruin every thread they touch with their overbearing approach to conversation.

 

i would like to be the first to ask vmarco to leave again!

 

thank you vmarco.

[Apech]

this thread was on shaky ground from the beginning, but some people, like vmarco, ruin every thread they touch with their overbearing approach to conversation.

 

i would like to be the first to ask vmarco to leave again!

 

thank you vmarco.

 

But ... Lao Tzu said he mustn't come and go ... never mind pass the yarrow tea please.

[Dainin]

Interactions between vmarco and Recep Ivedik would have been interesting to observe...

[gatito]

Interactions between vmarco and Recep Ivedik would have been interesting to observe...

 

Here's hoping.....

[三江源]

As we read in Jeremiah, 'My word is like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer that shatters the rock.'

 

But how do the words attain the power of fire and the power of a hammer? It can only be via transmission.

 

Without that, it is mere bludgeoning.

 

However, those that have the transmission within them, may take the bludgeoning and receive the blows quite differently than those without it.

 

Like et thoughts said..how to take the blow and receive it as a caress.

[Vmarco]

vmarco, ruin every thread they touch

i would like to be the first to ask vmarco to leave again!

 

 

Interesting!

 

An oldie but goodie:

 

A Buddhist story tells of a student who wished to make an offering to Siddhartha Gautama and so brought a flowering branch to a gathering. As the pupil approached, Siddhartha said to him, "Throw it away." Quickly, thinking he was supposed to discard the branch, the pupil threw it away. Yet Siddhartha again said, "Throw it away." The student could not comprehend what he was supposed to do. Siddhartha then said, "Throw yourself away." And the novice stood there confounded, pondering how he could throw himself away.

 

If the student had his "I am" before his "i think," there would not have been a reason to "throw it away." But,...people fear their light. As the Buddha Siddhartha reportedly said, "Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own thoughts."

 

"Earnestness is the key. Unconditional willingness. All you have to do is pay attention, be honest, and follow through. Truth is discovered when you simply refuse to lie to yourself anymore". Scott Morrison

 

However, instead of anamatva and his kindred believers throwing truth off TTB in order to sustain their beliefs,...what if the realization of falsity prevailed, and the Believers were asked to leave?

 

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" Taranatha

[thetaoiseasy]

-------------------------------------------------

anyone who writes under this immortal line is unenlightened. oops! I just did.

Edited December 20, 2012 by thetaoiseasy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Is it possible for people to be dogmatically anti-dogmatic?

[konchog uma]

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" Taranatha

 

lol im sure he wasn't talking about you vmarco

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

This thread has become rather taxing to follow for the last few days ... nothing really usefull or interesting being said. I'm going for a drink. Anyone else want anything? coffe, tea, poison?

If poison is religion, is spirituality tea?

[Marblehead]

I would find it useful if the people that kept asking VMarco to return to the forum, stepped up and showed themselves and explained what it is that motivated them. Are they in this discussion, or to be found here discussing with VMarco?

 

Those of you whose request for VMarco's presence is being granted.. please step forward and provide some balance to the conversation.

Come on Cat. You know I am one of those who think that Vmarco has something valid to share with us. Just because I disagree with him a lot doesn't mean that I don't value what he has to say. (Yes, I too could do without all the quotes but that is his 'way' and what kind of Taoist would I be if I told him that his 'way' was the wrong 'way'.

 

Anyhow, as I am an Atheist this thread has my attention so I have to read all the bickering just in case someone says something important. Of course, I separate religion from the institution so I have to be careful when I make a post to insure that I am not misunderstood.

 

Yes, Vmarco has a way of rubbing some members the wrong way. Those who get rubbed should be asking why they allowed themself to be rubbed the wrong way.

 

And the primary colors are still Red, Yellow, and Blue. Hehehe. Yes, I changed my mind. Yea! for me. I still like RGB though.

 

Is it Chi or is it Undivided Light? Just different labels.

 

Are we there yet?

[GrandmasterP]

Tea is sublime.

Drink tea, know tea.

Be tea.

And biscuits of course.

Little goes better with a lovely cup of tea than a nice biscuit, or at this festive tide, the three Aldi Deep Fill Mince pies (Holly Lane Brand, quite delicious) that I have just consumed along with a cheering cup of Red Bush by way of a light supper.

Life is indeed good sometimes.

[skydog]

off to take my dog out she has been nagging me..

[ShenLung]

If poison is religion, is spirituality tea?

 

Hehe .. whatever wakes you up ... or lets you get settled in and comfy, depending on what you want to get from it

[三江源]

Come on Cat. You know I am one of those who think that Vmarco has something valid to share with us. Just because I disagree with him a lot doesn't mean that I don't value what he has to say. (Yes, I too could do without all the quotes but that is his 'way' and what kind of Taoist would I be if I told him that his 'way' was the wrong 'way'.

 

Anyhow, as I am an Atheist this thread has my attention so I have to read all the bickering just in case someone says something important. Of course, I separate religion from the institution so I have to be careful when I make a post to insure that I am not misunderstood.

 

Yes, Vmarco has a way of rubbing some members the wrong way. Those who get rubbed should be asking why they allowed themself to be rubbed the wrong way.

 

And the primary colors are still Red, Yellow, and Blue. Hehehe. Yes, I changed my mind. Yea! for me. I still like RGB though.

 

Is it Chi or is it Undivided Light? Just different labels.

 

Are we there yet?

HI marblehead.

 

TBH I dont know what you mean when you say "Come on Cat". I dont understand.. I am english, you know.. maybe that has a connotation for you that makes sense in this context, but it doesnt make sense to me at all. Explain?

 

I'm sorry MH, I dont - at all - know your stance or relationship with VM. I dont read each and every post on the board.

 

I havent read all this thread, very far from it.

 

Yes I agree about 'rubbing up the wrong way' self questioning, and yes, I also agree that VMarco has a haughty tone.

 

Does your post essentially mean that you are one of the people who asked VM to return?

[Marblehead]

this thread was on shaky ground from the beginning, but some people, like vmarco, ruin every thread they touch with their overbearing approach to conversation.

 

i would like to be the first to ask vmarco to leave again!

 

thank you vmarco.

Hehehe. How about if we just ask him to stop talking so much?

 

Actually, the thread is getting fantastic activity. More posts to it than any recent thread.

 

Yes, the opening post contained many controversal statements. And this is why the controversy continues because every now and again something is said to topic and a new controversy starts up.

 

Vmarco can handle being the whipping post. He's a big boy.