Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[GrandmasterP]

As the Buddha is reported to have said in the Diamond Troll Sutra

Edited as post broke forum rules

Edited December 19, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

The most important symptom of ascension is a noticeable change in one's attachment to the descension. That is to say,...there is an awareness that what one thought was meaningful is actually meaningless. It is a preparation to transcend the delusion of caterpillarness, and be a butterfly.

Hi Vmarco,

 

I am already a butterfly. I have no place to go. All I need do is stay warm and watch out for the birds.

 

To your "meaningless", I already use the concept of "useful/useless" (to me) in my life. And I really do think that every thing and every event have meaning. The question would then be, "Does that (whatever) have any meaning in my life?" And at a purely materialistic level the answer is generally "No".

[Aaron]

Not once have I ever used a quote to tell me how the world is,...I use quotes to show you how muddy your experience is.

 

Of your posts, more than a hundred in over a year, you have not once indicated anything even close to clarity. I suggest let's have a meaningful dialogue,...start a serious thread on the Heart Attack Sutra,...use it as what you're against, instead of other posters. Let's see how clear you really are. Let's use a guide to enlightenment, through which enlightenment can actually be uncovered.

 

I agree, that your responses to my post are prompted by your fear and competitiveness. I loathe competitiveness.

 

Competition is not only a distraction to spirituality, but has an inherently hostile, us verses them mentality that is contrary to the true nature of basic human beingness. Competition is about as natural and needed as the Abrahamic religions. Just as there is no such thing as healthy delusion or a healthy religion, there is no healthy competition. Competition does not build character, it reinforces low self-esteem.

 

Competiion encourages animosity, envy, hostility, hate, war, and illiberalism. The synonyms of competition include contention, rivalry, conflict, strife, struggle and combativeness. For competition, there is only a winner if their is a loser When viewed integrally, competition undermines all healthy human enterprises. Competition reinforces a psychological dependence on external, object-ive activities. In a competitive society only the winner is good enough. Success is seen through defeating others, not cooperation.

 

Harvard Business School professor Dr. Teresa Amabile, author of Creativity in Context and Growing Up Creative, has given much attention to team creativity, organizational innovation, assessing creativity and motivation.. In one experiment she had two groups make artistic collages. One group competed for prizes through a contest, while the other was unaware of any competition. The art was then independently judged by seven professionals. Those competing for prizes were considered much less creative and complex than the non-competitive crafted collages.

 

Social psychologist Alfie Kohn pointed out in his impressive 'No Contest - The Case Against Competition' a multitude of negative effects of competition, many of them subtle. Kohn articulates that competition arises from four myths. First, the "survival of the fittest", which really manifests a purpetual struggle in society. Second, that competition builds character. Yet it has been shown that only those with low self-esttem require competitive activities. People with high self-esteem has no need to externally prove anything or beat others. Thirdly, that competition is fun. Competition reduces spontaneous play to superiority/humiliation dynamic. Fourthly is the fallacy that competition increases productivity. However, study after study shows that cooperation, not competition, leads to higher levels of achievement. "That most of us consistently fail to consider the alternatives to competition is a testament to the effectiveness of our socialization." Alfie Kohn

 

How could a truely loving parent put their children in competitive surroundings? For me, I never hesitated to play games with my kids. For example, we'd occasionally play the word game known as Scrabble. It wasn't played competitively, but cooperatively. We didn't take part to beat each other, but to continually see how many overall maximum points could be extracted from our play. We would help and encourage each other to find fantastic words. We would use a dictionary to learn new words and their suggested meanings.

 

 

Competitive contests encourage division, thus reinforcing the illusion of separation. As long as the belief that we are separate is clung to, we keep our sapiential mind obscured, and our thymus glands atrophied. Competition stimulates physical aging. Cooperation on the other hand, not only perpetuates an enhancing of human potential, but promotes a healthy relationship with humanity and our environment.

 

First, how is making derogatory comments about someone considered compassionate? Sheeple comes to mind. You really don't have the slightest idea what compassion really is, do you? You've come to define it in a way that it allows you to behave any way you wish. Well here's a hint, the highest form of compassion does not arise from morality or humanity, but rather from one's connection to each other. When you understand this connection, then you will understand compassion.

 

Also, Chuang Tzu's comment about being a butterfly has nothing to do with enlightenment, but rather whether or not the world we see is real, in other words, whether or not our senses can be trusted to define everything. If you actually understood the texts you read, you'd understand that.

 

I guess I should feel special that you pick me out of the blue to attack. It's amazing how I can have so much control over you without even trying. I would suggest letting your frustrations regarding me go. I'm sure losing debates to an everyday nobody like me is hard for you, but if you keep obsessing you'll never find any peace of mind. You'll just keep coming back here trying to reclaim what you've lost.

 

Let it go and go back to your normal life. Don't you have kids you could be spending time with, instead of wasting your time irritating people on this forum? Of course if you use the same model of compassion with your kids that you use on the forum, they probably don't want to spend time with you.

 

Aaron

Edited December 19, 2012 by Aaron

[C T]

This post says volumns about you CT,...interesting how easily your particular acquired serenity gets upset. But, real compassion, like authentic bodhisattvas, is an assassin of the illusion of acquired serenity and change.

 

As Buddha told Ananda, "You still listen to the Dharma with the conditioned mind, and so the Dharma becomes conditioned as well, and you do not obtain the Dharma-nature."

 

Most submit to the conditions of perceived life, and attach themselves to subsiding and change for their identity,..subsiding and change is comforting. In contrast, Buddha was intolerant of subsiding and change,...no one can realize liberation through subsiding and change. It is impossible to be simultaneously engage in subsiding and change, and Present. Buddha was present,....he neither came or gone. He stood as if it were, upon the Tao,....as Lao-zu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

As long as CT comes and goes,...he shall remain a caterpillar,...believing he understands what it like to be a butterfly.

 

You can ramble on as much as you like, Marco.

 

Your words to me means nothing. I have seen thru you from day 2 of your posting in the forum.

 

Save your advice for yourself, please.

 

We can all try to practice this a little:

 

[C T]

And this, too...

 

[Vmarco]

You can ramble on as much as you like, Marco.

 

Your words to me means nothing. I have seen thru you from day 2 of your posting in the forum.

 

Save your advice for yourself, please.

 

We can all try to practice this a little:

 

 

If my words means nothing, why do you seek out my posts and then ridicule me (not the context of the posts)?

 

I understand how your New Agey, non-Buddhist "form" of Buddhism gets upset with Tathagata orientated posts like mine,...and how it threatens your position as the Buddhist Expert on TTB,...but these loveless confrontations precipitated by emotional charges arising from your feelings of being threatened are not the answer.

 

As I've mentioned many times,...I don't engage in every thread,...so why don't you focus your New Agey Buddhism where I'm not,...and I'll discuss the nature of Tathagata where you're not. That way you can avert getting upset, and remain an expert of your own delusion. In other words,...as stated in your post,...that you will never have to pass this way again.

 

Or,...as offered to Aaron,...pick up a copy of 'the Heart Attack Sutra', and we can all have a serious discussion about prajnaparamita.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

First, how is making derogatory comments about someone considered compassionate?

Aaron

 

Only to ego, is shining light upon a pile of shit, derogatory.

 

"Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

If you want to discuss compassion, fine,...although such a discussion is ridiculously stupid without an understanding of Emptiness.

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's DVD,...nice video, check it out

[GrandmasterP]

He shoots he scores does Robert Thurman and with a single kick disenfranchises every compassionate non- Buddhist.

 

[Marblehead]

If my words means nothing, why do you seek out my posts and then ridicule me (not the context of the posts)?

Because he really does love you and is trying to help you along your path. That goes for Aaron too. It's just that some people don't display their love the way most people would expect them to.

 

Edit to add: Should I add GrandmasterP to that as well?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Marblehead

[GrandmasterP]

I had to edit my post, but yes count me in.

Vinegar has its uses but honey is sweeter.

[Birch]

Yeah, Mr MH. I'm wary of throwing that 'he's just displaying love' idea out there. I think it would be dangerous to assume anything about anyone else's motives. Only the person with motives is in a position to be honest (or not) in sharing what they are with others.

 

My motive in posting this idea for example is to explain that not all so-called 'love' and 'compassionate' action or speak is actually love or compassion. I have personally suffered from people who are only doing what's 'best for you'. And I also feel that 'spiritual' speak is very often used as covert verbal attack with the ostensible motive (so often declared, why the need?) of 'teaching' the other.

 

Further, if 'ultimate reality' is as claimed by 'spiritual' people then this 'help' is an affront to that reality.

 

--- opinion etc---

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Mr MH. I'm wary of throwing that 'he's just displaying love' idea out there. I think it would be dangerous to assume anything about anyone else's motives. Only the person with motives is in a position to be honest (or not) in sharing what they are with others.

 

Well, I am just seeing a lot of "I'm right and you are wrong" stuff in this thread and it really does get boring. What I said in the above post is not necessarily what I believe to be true.

 

My motive in posting this idea for example is to explain that not all so-called 'love' and 'compassionate' action or speak is actually love or compassion. I have personally suffered from people who are only doing what's 'best for you'. And I also feel that 'spiritual' speak is very often used as covert verbal attack with the ostensible motive (so often declared, why the need?) of 'teaching' the other.

 

I fully understanding what you are saying here. And I think I have a vague knowledge of why you have said such. Indeed, any attempt by others to change "us" to the way "they" would like us to be prevents us from finding our own true self and be able to make our own changes, if elected, in order to live a much more peaceful life.

 

It is sad that most of us understand only about telling others what they should do (because that is how most of us are raised) rather than asking us if we have any problems they can help us with.

[GrandmasterP]

I'm still reeling from that...

"You are not enlightened" comment that our chum lobbed at another poster.

[Birch]

 

 

Well, I am just seeing a lot of "I'm right and you are wrong" stuff in this thread and it really does get boring. What I said in the above post is not necessarily what I believe to be true.

 

 

 

I fully understanding what you are saying here. And I think I have a vague knowledge of why you have said such. Indeed, any attempt by others to change "us" to the way "they" would like us to be prevents us from finding our own true self and be able to make our own changes, if elected, in order to live a much more peaceful life.

 

It is sad that most of us understand only about telling others what they should do (because that is how most of us are raised) rather than asking us if we have any problems they can help us with.

 

I would underscore the last two paragraphs especially.

[DiamonD]

As the Buddha is reported to have said in the Diamond Troll Sutra

Edited as post broke forum rules

Dear sir, dir you edit as per basses of your own compassionate depth, somehow I dont fall for all this "rule" nonsense.

 

[Stosh]

K made a point there about whether the stuff folks intend to be "helpful" actually is and I think more often than not , it is not.

It was my reading in the TTC prior to TTB's input that butting out was the most compassionate action in a large number of situations. That the Judgement required to say that the situation would be improved by my participation was 'empty' of a vindication.

My personal view still looks much like that, though my behavior often enough belies it.

( because it reflects how I was raised more than what I believe to be wise)

It seems that buddhist influenced neo-daoist opinions about virtue are the major player here and around town.

 

Folks want to see themselves as good or virtuous , they want to delineate themselves by virtue of the posts they post,

They want to reinforce that which they feel is virtuous because in doing so they feel that they reinforce their own clarity regarding virtue and the level that they have of it.

 

But keeping ones opinions to oneself is probably close to ideal if one can pull it off.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

 

Dear sir, dir you edit as per basses of your own compassionate depth, somehow I dont fall for all this "rule" nonsense.

...

Cat told me to edit it so I did.

I do what Cat says, she is wise.

I ignored her once and spent a fortnight out in the cold .

If the steampunk people hadn't taken pity on me in I shudder to think what might have......

Edited December 19, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

Nice people but seriously weird.

They wear goggles and such.

Anyone thinks we're a bit odd, check out the steampunk sites.

 

[三江源]

...

Cat told me to edit it so I did.

I do what Cat says, she is wise.

I ignored her once and spent a fortnight out in the cold .

If the steampunk people hadn't taken pity on me in I shudder to think what might have......

 

Ideally no moderator would have to point out forum rules to anyone.

 

They are really simple rules.

 

Or at least, they appear really simple.

 

"No insults" and 'no belittling' and 'no demeaning' and certainly 'no attacking'. No name calling. No abusive language.

 

This is in order to keep discussion useful, productive, civil, interesting, contained. We are to imagine that we are at a sociable interesting gathering at Sean's house.

[Vmarco]

 

 

Further, if 'ultimate reality' is as claimed by 'spiritual' people then this 'help' is an affront to that reality.

 

--- opinion etc---

 

Anyone Who Gives You a Belief System is Your Enemy. Of course, believers will attack that as a belief in itself,...however, any prudent person can see it is not. If ordinary people understood what the bodhisattva vow meant,...they would kill bodhisattvas.

 

Seneca said, "Do not regard as valuable anything that can be taken away." All beliefs are impermanent.

 

"The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear." J Krishnamurti

 

"Most men (even on TTB) would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion (system of belief)." Lemuel K. Washburn

[三江源]

Vmarco.. you are repeating your previously posted material verbatim.

 

just sayin'.

[Vmarco]

I'm still reeling from that...

"You are not enlightened" comment that our chum lobbed at another poster.

 

I'm sure you can find much sympathy among the truth suppressors that will join in with your reeling. Nevertheless, the falsity of the person claiming to know the needs of enlightened men and understanding of enlightened compassion was quite justified in the simple statement,...you are not enlightened.

 

Let's suppose that the Heart Sutra, Tilopa's Mahamudra, the Shurangama sutra, Hua Hu Ching, etc., were presented by enlightened people. Based on those texts, your "reeling" is in direct opposition to the message in those texts. Thus,...either you are a promoter of lies, beliefs, spiritual disorder, etc., or Sakymuni, Avalokitesvara, Tilopa, and Lao-zu are.

 

As Cat points out,..."No insults" and 'no belittling' and 'no demeaning' and certainly 'no attacking'. No name calling. No abusive language.

 

However, those like yourself (caterpillars) who promote falsity and disinformation often feel it is insultive to call a spade a spade. I take Cat's statement to mean ad hominem,...that is, attack a person, because they are too afraid or ignorant to address the message.

 

Anyone reading any of my 1300 posts, will not find a single act of ad hominem,...they are all in direct response to a poster. There are no Truth Suppression tactics. No one is belittled for being unawake,...but encouraged to disrobe from their beliefs.

 

Seneca said, "Do not regard as valuable anything that can be taken away." All beliefs are impermanent.

 

..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid". 1st Century Gnostic text.

[Vmarco]

Vmarco.. you are repeating your previously posted material verbatim.

 

just sayin'.

 

Some, like yourself, have a higher comprehension than others. I apologize for your inconvenience.

[Bubbles]

Found in Two Realities - Jesus and Buddha as Brothers thread post# 26

 

From my own personal experience compassion isn't that complicated, you just need to get your identity out of your head and reactionary defensive egoic mind and your heart will radiate compassion naturally. But there is small compassion which we all experience every day which discriminates where it shines it's light and there is big compassion which does not discriminate, i'm guessing Robert Thurman is talking about big compassion here, which I see plenty of evidence of Jesus showing in many of the scriptures.

 

But if you read the Dalai Lama's autobiography he says the most important compassion he has received in his whole life came from his mother when he was a child, which strictly according to Buddhist and Thurman's definitions would be classed as small compassion yet it was the most important and it had nothing to do with the Bodhicharyavatara or Buddhism or emptiness, so I wouldn't underestimate small compassion just because it has no grounding in dependent origination.

 

And then Vmarco’s answer : ( I put in bold what is interesting)

 

Yes,..."personal experience" always makes compassion complicated. Of course, IF one could get "their identity" or "personality" out of the way, they would see how empty their relative or "small compassion" truly is.

 

No,...I would not "underestimate small compassion just because it has no grounding in dependent origination." However, that is no excuse to deny, suppress, disconnect, disempower BIG compassion.

 

I understand, that those, who like yourself, read the Bible solely for display and devotion, haven't a clue about the Bible,...and thus encourage pseudo-Buddhist inter-faith ideas, as promoted by Thich Nhat Hanh. However, if you knew anything about bodhisattvas, they would never encourage pseudo-Buddhist inter-faith ideas,...but rather, as Chögyam Trungpa said, "shine light upon the pile of shxt" that theist religions are.

 

As for the Dali Lama, he's a tricky fellow (and unstandingly so, considering the many people he is responsible for),...in mixed company he talks one way,...among Buddhists (above beginner and sophomoric levels) he talks another way. As my interests are in Admirable Friends, I don't, when I can help it, interact very much with Christians or wannebe Buddhists. On top of that, I pivot from an impersonal position, which personal folks as yourself find irritating.

 

Anyway,...I merely dropped by (Tao Bums)to see if any honest, impersonal folks were around. So far, it seems like not,...so, I'll drop out again, so that the "conspiracy of mediocrity" (run a search) can continue.

 

V

 

1. Everyone can see how you choose to act here at TTB. This is just an example of how you interact with people you suspect to threaten your agenda. You are attacking people and belittling them. So it is not true that you have never belittled anyone here.

 

2. More than that, I have on several occasions reminded you that your quotes were mostly out of context, displayed with erroneous interpretations because you are just compiling them to fit your biased point against what you think to be “religion”. This lack of intellectual integrity is far under what your models had accomplished in this regard. Great enlightened Tibetan Buddhists had superior intellectual skills.

 

3. And finally, should I remember you that, although it is all fine if you believe you are enlightened, no one here asked you to be your disciple so you have no real legitimacy to display what you believe to be your “compassional” way of treating others here. Good for you if you believe you are Tilopa, but no one here believes he is Naropa. So no one comes here to endure your aggressiveness.

 

4. So once again, as I have already done it in the past, I urge you to be consistent with your own statement which I will quote here again and put the important passage in bold for the sake of clarity:

 

Anyway,...I merely dropped by (Tao Bums)to see if any honest, impersonal folks were around. So far, it seems like not,...so, I'll drop out again, so that the "conspiracy of mediocrity" (run a search) can continue.

 

V

Edited December 19, 2012 by bubbles

[Vmarco]

2. More than that, I have on several occasions reminded you that your quotes were mostly out of context, displayed with erroneous interpretations because you are just compiling them to fit your biased point against what you think to be “religion”. This lack of intellectual integrity is far under what your models had accomplished in this regard. Great enlightened Tibetan Buddhists had superior intellectual skills.

 

3. And finally, should I remember you that, although it is all fine if you believe you are enlightened, no one here asked you to be your disciple so you have no real legitimacy to display what you believe to be your “compassional” way of treating others here.

 

4. So once again, as I have already done it in the past, I urge you to be consistent with your own statement which I will quote here again and put the important passage in bold for the sake of clarity:

 

Far too much nonsense to address,...but I'll respond alittle.

 

Dragging up nearly year old posts is quite telling,...OK,...I threaten your belief system,...that is your religion. Your post seems to be rather clear that you believe you are your beliefs,...sorry to hear that. In truth, you are not your beliefs. Nevertheless, my discussions on beliefs obviously upsets you, as if shining light on beliefs is an attack on you.

 

As mentioned to others,...if you can't handle facts, don't read my posts. In America, at least 49% believe facts are stupid things,...an authentic Taoist would not feel that way

 

As for #4,...I've been repeatedly (no less than 50 times) since dropping of TTB, been asked to return to TTB. Don't feel any of those (not 50 individuals, but several individuals repeating the asking) are looking for a guru or teacher, which I've explicitly and implicity said I am not, nor would ever want such a headache. My understanding is that they get nauseous with the same New Agey believers seeking praise from fellow believers, and advocating beliefs as something meaningful. I've been told there is a lack of integrity, honesty, spiritual vigor, etc., that a serious Taoist forum necessates. Certainly that is true with many posters,...frankly don't have a clue why they would be here.

 

Again,...the quotes I use are never out of context with my response,...although usually out of context with the author of the quote. Thus, like 100% of your post above, your opinion, in the context of my posts, is seriously flawed.

 

As for the term religion,...as a Religious Studies academic in the 80's, of whom members of the Westar Institute said that not 20 people on the planet understood Early Christianity as well, and a recognized Religious Studies author,...I'm quite familiar with meaning of religion. I can also assure you with 100% certainty, that no religious person will ever, nor can ever, realize enlightenment or the Tao.

 

As Lao Tzu said, "...religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds"

 

My question is,...why are you on a Taoist forum proselytizing sets of religious belief,...and getting upset at someone attempting to have a discussion on the Tao?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Vmarco