I need your vote to change the world!

[SheepishLord]

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Plato,

 

I've given you my tentative yes vote and will probably answer the forthcoming email from you as well - to solidify the vote, but I have a question or two first...

 

I find it counter-intuitive to let a baby tremble and sob and will try to soothe the infant rather than let it remain distressed. I assume the reaction you showed was a response to the knowledge you had of the baby's earliest days and not the current situation at hand at the time.

 

(I for one, am usually at a loss as to what is agrieving an infant when it wails). So my question is how can you be so sure that what any baby is crying about at any given time? What made you so sure this was a post-trauma release and not a reaction to some actual discomfort, or even a fear of your "vibe" at the time? Or even your apparent lack of concern for the infant as you drifted off with it on yr stomach? And then your apparent lack of compassionate concern afterwards?

 

It seems that perhaps your mind-set could well have been the catalist to evoke these memories in the infant. I have found that it is quite easy to project images into an infant's receptive mind. The very young are like sponges or very sensitive receivers on all sense recepticles. When placed with a stranger these attributes are hightened and an infant becomes hyper-sensitive. I assume part of the continual sobbing was your lack of apparent concern and comfort for the baby. It may well have begun to feel abandoned again!

 

I have gone through post traumatic stress and found that a period of disassociative personality disorder was benifitial in the initial stages of post traumatic stress. That is to say a period when the mind created a seperate reality to bury the trauma until such time as one's emotional state could cope with it...I am not so sure that forcing the issues of trauma are always the best road to take in any given case.

 

"Tough-love", as it were - is not the only way to go. Remembering trauma is a very tricky business indeed. Without the added aids of verbal communication it may be wisest to wait until the infant has matured some more before inducing the catharsis..

 

Furthermore...Attention is not compassion nor as nurturing as demonstrative caring. Dr. Mengela was intent on his subject's reactions to his experiments as he devised his insidious investigations...I am concerned with the apparent lack of compassion in this situation. I do not equate interested attention (undivided or not) with compassionate concern...And I don't believe that a sensitive infant would either...

 

I have given you the tentitive yes vote in a belief that your natural compassion may shine through as this project goes forward...I will varify it after I hear back from you on these concerns...

Edited January 3, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Owl]

Plato, I have just voted for your project.

 

I have to say, all of the past 8 years I've followed your "adventures" online, this one is by far the most heart-warming for me. It serves to remind us that having a genuine heart-to-heart connection to other people and the rest of humanity is crucial for the health of a cultivator. It is far too easy to get stuck in the nitty gritty of meditation and qi cultivation and forget that we are warm blooded creatures who share this life with many others. Perhaps when we are training overselves to integrate vertically with heaven and earth, we can also put emphasis on spiral-horizontal, heart-based exchanges with other humans in our daily lives.

 

I hope this is the just the beginning of many more world-changing endeavors of yours. What a way to start a new year!

 

Owl

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Owl,

 

I have no prior knowledge of Plato's activities. I do not though EVER have to be reminded of my connections to the rest of humanity. I for one am shocked at the notion that any self-cultivation could possibly move forward without the deepest sense of compassion and connection to the rest of the world and humanity.

 

Self-absorbtion is not cultivation. It is a bid at ego inhancment and neurotic striving for "a better you", without concerns for the greater good...There is, for me, no advancement of spirit or growth of one's inner personality (that which dies), without compassionate bonding with the wider world...

 

Compassion is the basis for all of our connectivity. For me it is not the striving to further our own selfish needs and projections of self, not even in transcendant searching beyond the inner self and its' connections to the rest of the cosmic whole...

 

I am deeply disconcerted by the premiss of "otherness" in these activities. If we are all one at a basic level of existance -as is a part of Taoist philosophy, as a part of our consciousness; so why would these notions of compassion be so novel?

[TwoTrees]

Hey P,

 

When I saw the site you were proposing this through, it brought me a smile. I am familiar with the site, a firefighter friend of mine is going through that same one, promoting a book to raise money for the education and sustenance for kids over in Bosnia. He's been working on stuff like this for years. High ambition & drive meets a great big ol' heart.

 

You've got my vote on there, and I've sent an invite to over 20 people through email, also I'm posting up the link with description up in my blog. It will reach a wide variety of seekers of change. I even have a couple of lama's on my buddy list!

 

-Michelle

[affenbrot]

Plato I can see only the best intentions behind your acting, and I haven't even read the book, and I even have no experience in parenting BUT

I think applying "undivided attention" to a baby is big BS.

I sense buddhist technique here that I believe is fundamentally hostile to (baby)live.

 

To give a child indifference in your emotional response or even project non-identification or similar

onto it means hurting it in a voyeuristic way. So maybe with this book

the live story of buddha whose mother died after seven days of his birth reacts itself

through distorted concepts....

 

and the comparison to mengele isn't far fetched, the SS had in a way an almost boddhisattvic ideal of improving man..applied with emotion-free indifference.

 

why sustain your free flowing spontaneous response towards the suffering of a child?? doesnt't need to be

mr spock as the only alternative?!

 

just my thoughts. (being in a antibuddhist mood anyhow)

affenbrot

[SheepishLord]

For Wayfarer and Affenbrot,

 

I have found that for myself, the important thing is to do more acting and less thinking.

 

Hence, when I wrote that proposal I did it stream-of-consciousness without any thought as to how someone would react.

 

You see, another aspect of myself that I wish to correct (besides not working at causes I believe in) is the fact that I have this tendency not to trust myself sometimes.

 

Just as I like to plot and plan the future because it keeps me in the future and away from my rage at the present.

 

Just as I like to spend time optimizing my work schedule because it keeps me away from actually doing work which would throw me into a rage (How dare I have to work!).

 

So my new year's resolutions are to trust and act--and give some of my insane drive for someone other then myself.

 

However, just for the record, in no way am I advocating paying Mengele-like attention to babies while they suffer!

 

I guess you had to have been there.

I guess you had to have read the book.

I know I can't blame you given my crazy on-line persona: maybe I was wearing my SS uniform while baby-sitting?

 

-Plato

[Yoda]

If it's good enough for Plato then it's good enough for Yoda.

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Plato,

 

WHOA Baby! Are you actually telling us that this whole idea is just a way for you to get pro-active with your energy and "just DO something!?" This is totally irresponsible! The psychology of an infant is nothing to play games with, no matter how well-meaning you may indeed be with this idea- it is seeming more and more selfish as you explain it!

 

What am I missing? Is this actually some sort of test of us, to see how concerned we are at this proposal? It just gets worse as I get the drift of this thing.

 

There has been no indication of any positive response from the baby after this traumatic eposode. Where is the end result? What is the end result supposed to be? I can not fathom the good to be found in these acts of attention without compassion.

 

WHAT DOES THIS BOOK SAY ABOUT SUCH TACTICS?!

 

No baby I would ever have responsibility for would ever be allowed to take part in such bullshit. It may indeed be concidered illegal by some folks -so- TAKE THE TIME TO THINK!!!!

 

And better yet open your heart to feel and share and respond from your heart to ANY life in distress!

 

I regret that this has brought out such a strong negative reaction to something that may be well-meaning but I really see no value in such tactics...

Edited January 4, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[SheepishLord]

Wayfarer,

 

My personal (and naturally highly subjective) opinion is that if this project of mine has brought out such a strong negative reaction in you, it may be indicative that you have lots of issues around your own childhood which you have not yet discharged.

 

For example, I can't stand the sound of babies crying. Why? First of all, I learned to repress my crying when I was a child and still repress it to this day (although I am getting better at crying in dark movie theaters or when nobody else is around). Secondly, I know exactly why babies cry and it infuriates me the way adults fawn over crying children because they are too dead on the inside to pick up on the reasons why and take appropriate action to help the baby heal.

 

The book covers lots of other topics, such as how cribs and strollers ruin a child, and why it is a good idea to carry children and let them sleep in your bed with you, etc.

 

My well-meaning suggestion is that you purchase the book not only to answer your questions about the work, but to help you confront any childhood issues which you may still be attempting to process as an adult--or visit the author's website.

 

Either way, my project will be a success.

 

-Plato

[Cameron]

edit.

[Wayfarer64]

SL- I think it best to not take you very seriously when you presume to get Freaudian about my response. I do not supress my crying and indeed I think that in many cases when a baby is crying it is best to let them cry. I am reacting to the cold and calculating way that you explain how you treated the infant intrusted to your care. And the entirely flippant way you describe why you became involved in this project.

 

Also, I do not believe that your limited envolvement with infants gave you the needed insight to make a call as to what was actually irking the kid... To let it cry FOR HOURS and do nothing but observe it just seems plain cruel to me- in the way it was described.

 

I have gleaned very little about the book being proposed from this thread. I did get the idea that this project is more of a whim than a real concern of yours. You are tired of thinking and not doing. In most of the world parents are nothing if not tired of doing. Raising children is seldom taken on lightly. It is not a hobby.

 

I am also a gret believer in keeping very young children close to mom or dad and off the ground. "Nesting" as it were. with kids in bed with the parents is also a very healthy invironment indeed. These attitudes of nurturing were not being expressed in the discription offered.

 

 

You state that you know exactly why baby's cry. I think this may be the most subjective statement I have yet read on this site. You believe that you know, but we don't even get what each other is saying half the time when writing it out in plain english!

 

This being said- I too can get empathetic ideas and messages from both infants and animals - I believe most of us could if we opened ourselves up to them. I still havee to ask -So why let the infant go through the catharthsis for so long?

 

What did the adoptive parents think of these goings-on? Do they plan to sue you for child abuse?

 

The last is just a quip... but stranger things have happened.

[forestofsouls]

Well, having recenly had a baby myself, I can see both sides of this issue. Usually, when my baby cries, he's hungry, his diaper needs to be changed, or he needs to be held. He loves to be held. It is apparant on the look of his face, his demeanor, the way he feels. On the other hand, sometimes he likes to be by himself, just looking around and flailing his little hands.

 

On the other hand, I've read previously that babies do need to be held, to be touched, and can even die from not being touched. I imagine, as with all things, that there is a balance between soothing/letting be. Lucky for me, my wife has great maternal instincts.

 

At first his cries were very distressing, but simply being present and listening to them has given me a different perspective on crying. Of course, this might be different had I not already done some work on my own emotional repression issues (using meditation). There is a tone to the cries ranging from "regular" crying, just making sound as it were, to "distressful crying." A cry is not a cry, and I imagine that as he ages, the cries will increase in variation.

 

On a side note, I've found that my boy especially likes it when I chant "Om Namah Shivayah" to him.

[SheepishLord]

Yes, the crying incident I spoke of was not your normal crying. I am referring to what is commonly referred to as "colic." That label gets abused to cover any situation where nobody knows why a child is crying.

 

It is in these situations where the technique I spoke of becomes paramount in importance. Once again, it is not a cold and clinical presence (although that would work also believe it or not), it is a compassionate presence simply because that's what is natural for a parent unless they are really fucked up.

 

The irony is that even if they are fucked up, if they use the techniques, things work out.

 

Just like picking up girls. Most of human life follows programs. There is only a narrow window of free will.

[Wayfarer64]

Plato,

 

well if this book's program is more about nurturing and bonding than what was first indicated there may indeed be some merit to it... You did not describe the attitude you maintained as anything but clinical, and I do not believe that any program or technique is universal. I am devoutly anti-systematic about techniques for addressing world-wide problems.

 

When I was in Indonesia two American social workers were actually run-out of Jogjyakarta when they tried to "educate" the local moms about modern practices. A sales corp was also similarly shunned when they tried to sell some Nestle's formula to the locals in Thailand - tho the free samples were taken at first.

 

I have written on past threads about how Balinese children are never allowed to touch the ground for a year or so after birth etc...They are always slung in front of mom with breast in reach...I doubt that this tome is as world-shaking as you assume it to be.

 

While I have only dealt with infants in six or seven countries, I have picked up women in some 35 countries on 4 continents. There was never any set approach. I was not calculating. I am as likely to offer myself as the object of aquisition as to be the "hunter" in our mating game. I never had a set stratagy. I think that halped me to find the most vibrant, challanging and interesting women who were available. So yr analogy just does not ring true for me. I guess if I just went to local bars in a section of the USA or some other localized scope of effort, this could be the case- othewise the norms around the globe are far too various to chance a set ruitine. What will bring you a new love in Brooklyn will get you killed or at least castrated in Malaysia.

 

I guess we just have very different world views. So good luck. & happy new year anyway.

 

Side note -I always have a harmonica or two with me everyday everywhere... So I can work out tunes in my head or practice or just amuse myself. I have found that this habit has been the most useful when a baby or youngster is crying. A few bars of lilting, happy music distracts the kids long enough for them to forget the cause of their frustration- which dove-tails with the idea that some babies cry with very little to cry about-I guess that agrees with yr touted book's message some what at least...Only I would rather distract them with the musical attention I give them than listen to the catterwhalling...Chanting should work as well if not better...

 

As this thread has been much more down to earth than most here, I for one appreciate the topic very much!-Thanks again-PDG

Edited January 9, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[thelerner]

Music and the savage baby. Yesterday my 6 year old had a combination of hurt feelings from older siblings and recovering from a tummy ache. It was hard to console or reason with the beast.

 

Thus I turned to music. We Iplod. I hooked my Ipod to dual ear plugs. We played his favorite Raffi songs. I played him my old favorites like the Beatles. In no time we were discussing music and mellowing.

 

I Iplod with my 8 year old daughter too. We'll take walks with dual earplugs, walking and moving from song to song.

 

Child rearing is an endurance event. Its 24 x 7 x 365 x 3 x 25. You wear many hats and need many tricks up your sleeve. Frankly a 3 or 4 hour stint with a crying baby is often the experience du jour.

 

I'm not sure if giving new mothers an unasked for book is the right approach. They leave the hospital dog tired with 100#'s of misc. baby stuff and have very little time. Writing up a synopsis in booklet form might be cheaper, faster and more efficient (with a pitch for the book at the end). Eight pages of printing can become 2 pages in folded booklet form. Hook up with the hospital photograper, everybody buys no matter how verminish the newborn looks like, they would be an ideal source to distribute free booklets.

 

Once written you can send it to the many Baby magazines out there. Again a cheaper fast efficient way to let mothers know about the books method. This method might even make you $$ instead of having to depend on a charity.

 

Alternatively have the book available at the hospital store and use the money to create and subsidize half price coupons. People are more likely to read (and value) what they pay for.

 

Random thoughts

 

 

Michael

[SheepishLord]

Music and the savage baby. Yesterday my 6 year old had a combination of hurt feelings from older siblings and recovering from a tummy ache. It was hard to console or reason with the beast.

 

Thus I turned to music. We Iplod. I hooked my Ipod to dual ear plugs. We played his favorite Raffi songs. I played him my old favorites like the Beatles. In no time we were discussing music and mellowing.

 

I Iplod with my 8 year old daughter too. We'll take walks with dual earplugs, walking and moving from song to song.

 

Child rearing is an endurance event. Its 24 x 7 x 365 x 3 x 25. You wear many hats and need many tricks up your sleeve. Frankly a 3 or 4 hour stint with a crying baby is often the experience du jour.

 

I'm not sure if giving new mothers an unasked for book is the right approach. They leave the hospital dog tired with 100#'s of misc. baby stuff and have very little time. Writing up a synopsis in booklet form might be cheaper, faster and more efficient (with a pitch for the book at the end). Eight pages of printing can become 2 pages in folded booklet form. Hook up with the hospital photograper, everybody buys no matter how verminish the newborn looks like, they would be an ideal source to distribute free booklets.

 

Once written you can send it to the many Baby magazines out there. Again a cheaper fast efficient way to let mothers know about the books method. This method might even make you $$ instead of having to depend on a charity.

 

Alternatively have the book available at the hospital store and use the money to create and subsidize half price coupons. People are more likely to read (and value) what they pay for.

 

Random thoughts

Michael

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts Michael!

[Wayfarer64]

Hey Sheepish Lord,

 

I want to thank you for sharing this idea and site . I plan to try to raise some funds and consciousness for Tenant's Rights with these kind folks as well. I trust this activity will not step on yr toes at all...If ya want to swap books some time let me know.- PDG

[sunshine]

CONGRATS PLATO for getting the APPROVAL

[Wayfarer64]

Congartulations, I got the message that my vote had helped pass yr project.

 

This gives me hope for mine ...

 

http://www.givemeaning.com/donate/p-project.aspx?gg=800

 

I have eight days left, but just haven't been able to generate my base tenants to reply to the email from Give Meaning... they voted but didn't confirm! It isn't very clear in the instructions .

See ya all in cyber-space...-Pat

Edited January 29, 2007 by Wayfarer64