What is Jin(勁) in Tai Ji Quan with a Scientific Explanation...!?

[ChiDragon]

BTW When two masters goes into an ultimate strength match, normally, they do a handshake then both walk away with a smile on their faces. This way, they are the only one knows who won the match in their hearts. Indeed, they respect each other and saving faces too. In this case, it was not just a handshake because the match was between internal and external strength test.

 

Now, let's look at the physics aspect of the strength match of the two masters.

In physics, there is a formula for the summation of the forces.

F = F1 + F2; with a "-" sign assigned was to indicate it is going in the opposite direction.

 

So, we have a formula for the two masters.

F1 = Long Wu

f2 = Chen Xiaowang

 

Let's just look at the weight of both masters by this formula:

F = F1 - f2

 

For analytical purposes, let's assume that Long weights 350 pounds and Chen weights 200.

F = 350 - 200

F = 150

Therefore, the resultant of the force(+150) is going to the right which is showing that Long's force overcame Chen's force.

 

Mathematically, the formula had shown that Master Chen did not and impossible to win the match. However, the final result had shown physically that Master Chen did win.

 

The requirement of the match was to have Chen to prevent from pushed off the Yin-yang circle by Long Wu. In order for Chen to win the match, he has to change the formula to have F = 0. Chen knows he does not have to push Long farther back but just to exert enough energy to hold himself in his standing position without wasting anymore than he should. Thus he saves himself some energy.

 

He did change the formula, F = 0, for him to win. The question is how did Master Chen holding himself in place to win the match...??? There was a physiological process taken place inside his body which must be explained scientifically.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In order for Master Chen to win the match, he must introduce an energy factor, E, into the formula. The energy factor is the force that Master Chen must be generated by his body to counteract Long's body weight to have F=0. Thus we have this new formula:

F = F1 - f2 - E

0 = 350 - 200 - E

E = 150 pound(needed to be generated by Chen).

 

Master Chen had practiced Tai Ji for years in his family. The Chen style Tai Ji is very unique, they added a little sway in the between the movements. The sway is very good in helping for the body muscles to build the muscle tone in the torso. BTW Long did mention that he saw a big sway made by Master Chen during the match. Anyway, after all the years of practice, Master Chen has a Tai Ji body so to speak. His body is able to generate lots of Jin. Actually, Jin(勁) is nothing but a normal body strength for a Tai Ji practitioner. However, Jin is much greater than the body strength(力, li) of a normal person.

 

From Video-2, Master Chen said that the Chi must be merged with the muscles in order to Fa Jin(to execute Jin). For that being said, it tells us that the Jin is not stored in the body but has to be generated in the muscles. Therefore, the greater the amount of Li can be generated than normal was considered to be the Jin.

 

The next thing to be considered is to see how the Li(力) was generated in the body of a normal person. Using with modern science, the closest thing that I can come across to explain how the body strength was generated is the cell respiration. The cell respiration theory will help me to explain how Master Chen can generate the Jin to counteract the extra 150 pounds to maintain the his stance in place.

 

So, how is Jin(勁) differ from Li(力)...??? I will prove that Jin is nothing but Li; and Jin is only a large quantity of Li.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Nacken]

As mentioned, body positioning is the largest part of this, stance and leverage. Essentially the Master Chen positions himself so that the force is directed slightly downwards so that it actually roots him more firmly. I'm not saying that it is all a trick--he probably is using some internals, but he uses both. Also, when you have a line of men pushing into each other it isn't the total of their combined strength in the push. Their bodies absorb most of the strength of each other's push. I've done the same, although only with five or six guys rather than the twenty or so here.

 

But energy/qi does certainly exist. I don't understand it entirely although I work with it often enough. I agree with the Adam Hsu articles. Chinese do overuse the word 'Jing'. They talk about it as sexual essence, and they talk about it in martial arts techniques. They also use it as though Qi and Jing were interchangeable. I tend to think of it as being Qi when it is circulated in the body and Jing when being actively used. That probably isn't quite right, but I compare it to potential and kinetic energy, with Jing being the energy when in use. Feel free to give me your version.

[ChiDragon]

Nacken....

There is a difference between Jin(勁) and Jing(精).

 

Here is what I think. If body A was absorbed the energy from body B, then body A would have to be moved away.

 

In the point of interest here, two people are in contact with each other and using human strength. Where Kinetic energy involves in mass and acceleration(E = m x a square). There was no acceleration involve here. Thus I don't think that the potential and kinetic energy were our concern here.

 

In the match, I believe the point of contact should be zero force in order for the two persons not to move. Another words, both persons have to exert a force to cancel each other out. One energy of one cannot be absorbed by the other. Otherwise, one or the other would have had been moved in either direction.

 

That was the reason why I had set the summation formula F = 0.

 

If F = 350 - 200, the final result was 150. Since the pushing force against Master Chen is 150 pound, he would have had been pushed out of the Yin-yang circle already. In order for Master Chen to stay in the circle, he must generate his own energy at least 150 pound to counteract this extra pushing force.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Now we have the physics aspect out of the way. It is time to going into the physiologically aspect. Chen Xiaowang became a Tai Ji master was not because that he knew the Chen style Tai Ji Quan but rather he practiced for years. The practice transformed his ordinary body to a Tai Ji body. What is a Tai Ji body...??? A Tai Ji body is a body with lots of muscle tone throughout the whole body. What muscle tone does was to generate the body strength when the muscles contract. The more the muscles contract the more the body strength which can be generated. Why? That is how the muscles work physiologically.

 

Without the western modern science, then I wouldn't have found out what Tai Ji is all about. What so unique about practicing Tai Ji Chuan...??? Well, the unique thing about it was to do the movements very slowly at the beginning to build up the muscle tone as the first level. At the second level, the movements can be done much faster because the muscle tone can help to generate more body energy for a quicker reaction. In order to see the advantage of having lots of muscle tone, we need to know what was happening when the muscles contract physiologically. In addition, most importantly, we must not forget about breathing.

 

First of all, let's use some Tai Ji terms and see how they are correlated with the modern scientific terms. There is a very famous common term used throughout the martial arts industry. The term is 氣沈丹田(sink chi to the dan tian). The translation is to send all the breath down to the abdomen but not the energy as misunderstood by many. The 氣(chi ) means breath. The reason the Chinese said this phrase in such way was because when one takes a deep breath, the abdomen expands outward. In the ancient time, without any modern science knowledge, the Chinese though all the breaths were going down to the abdomen. Hence, this idea has been passed down through centuries.

 

With the help modern science, we know damn well that when we breathe the oxygen goes into the lungs but not the abdomen; and the blood pumped by the heart will gone into the lungs to collect the oxygen. I will change you thinking a little bit by switching the "chi" as the "oxygen" for simple explanation. I also wanted to correlate with Master Chen's statement in Video-2: "The chi must merge with the muscles to Fa Jin."

 

There is a physiological effect in the muscles when they under contraction. The muscle generates a biochemical energy called ATP. The ATP energy is the energy which help the body to function internally as well externally. When we lift up something, the ATP is the energy in our muscles which help us to do the mechanical work. I will not go into the science of the ATP due to the microscopic aspect of it and it is very time consuming. However, I will go over how the ATP was generated.

 

The muscles are composed by many body cells. Inside the body cells there lots of mitochondria which generates the ATP energy. The process in generating the ATP was called the cell respiration. The reason it contains the word respiration was because each body cell require oxygen in the process of generating the ATP. There is a simple basic formula to represent the ATP generating process.

 

Basic formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Energy

ATP formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + ATP

 

If I correlate the basic formula in terms of a normal body and Tai Ji body, I'll get:

1. Normal body: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Li(力)

2. Tai Ji Body: Glucose + Chi = Water + C02 + Heat + Jin(勁)

 

I will go over each formula separately for clarity. Thanks.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The explanation of the basic formula of cell respiration.

Basic formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Energy

ATP formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + ATP

 

In the basic formula, the left hand side tells us that we must eat and breath in order to have energy to burn. The glucose was acquired from eating; and the oxygen was from breathing. In the right hand side, it was the chemical reaction taken place after the glucose was decomposed by the oxygen. The water and Carbon dioxide are the waste products resulted from the body cells. During the muscle contraction, heat was generated as our body heat; and mostly importantly, the ATP energy was generated for the lungs to breath, the heart to pump, the action potential from the brain to send message through the central nervous system and etc. Overall, the ATP is the vital energy for the whole body to function. The more energy the body is much healthier and the body has quicker response.

 

If the oxygen on the left hand side of the formula was decreased by a short of breath, then the heat and energy on the right hand side will be decreased. The lactic acid level will be increased in the body to cause the muscles to fatigue due to hypoxia(lack of oxygen) . If the condition of hypoxia occurs in the body for a long time, then chronic diseases will cause the body to deteriorate due to the low level of the biochemical energy(ATP). In the worse case, death may result if the body was either lack of food or oxygen.

 

The ATP are constantly generated. If they were not used, then they will be gone in few seconds until the next inhalation to provide more oxygen to produce more.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Now let's apply the basic formula to both competitors.

1. Long Wu: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Li(力)

Long does not have any Chi Kung experience, his normal body strength(Li) will be depleted as soon as he is out of breath and become fatigue.

 

2. Chen: Glucose + Chi = Water + C02 + Heat + Jin(勁).

In Chen's case, we have to start with the basic formula and see how his normal body was developed to a Tai Ji body. Please note that in his formula, "Chi" was substituted for oxygen to indicate that amount of oxygen intake is much greater than normal due to Chi Kung practice; and "Jin" was substituted for energy to indicate the his energy level or body strength is much greater than few decades ago.

 

Initially, Chen's body was just like a normal person. The muscles in the body is getting to be firmer and the energy level is higher after decades of practicing Tai Ji Chuan. What so unique about Tai Ji that will strengthen the muscles in the body...??? It is the slowness of the movements which slowly work into the muscles causing the muscles to become firmer slowly. At the same time, breathing was done spontaneously to increase the oxygen intake progressively.

 

At the beginning of Tai Ji practice, besides, the arms and legs were moving slowly; but it was also told to bent them slightly. Without realizing that the muscles were contracted slightly due to the bending movements. The slight contraction will cause the muscles to manufacture ATP energy which required for the actual muscle contraction. Since the body cells are manufacturing the ATP, there will be a demand for more supply of oxygen.

 

The respiratory system will be activated to breathe more air into the lungs. The process will take place constantly if the practice continues and the breathing will be deeper and deeper. The breath will go down deep into the dan tian so to speak by the ancients. This is the hidden Chi Kung part in Tai Ji Chuan. That is why Tai Ji Chuan was considered to be a form of Chi Kung(see note).

 

Most importantly, the energy level was increased in the body due to the practice. The body will function and fine tune itself to the ultimate state of homeostasis. Initially, the number of mitochondria in the muscles were lower. The body strength Li was not as much. Since Master Chen Xiaowang have a long period of practice, the number of mitochondria have been increased tremendously in his muscles. His Li will be tremendous when he contract his muscles. Remember I said in the earlier post, a large amount of Li was considered to be Jin. Indeed, right now, Mater Chen has a tremendous numbers of mitochondria in all his muscles. Therefore, when he contract any muscle in his body to exert his body strength, the Li will be considered to be Jin. Can one imaging that when he contract all the muscles in his body, do you know how much Jin can he be generated to resist any pushing force against him. Finally, he was able to withstand the extra 150 pound pushing force by Long Wu.

 

 

Note: By the Chinese definition, Chi Kung is to enhance the breathing habit for the respiratory system. Therefore, Chi Kung was considered to be the ultimate method of breathing.

 

PS...

If you have any comments, please do not hesitate to post them. Thank you very much.

Edited December 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

Sorry.....guys

 

This is not within the scope of the thread.....

The thread was going well with practical application until this - this is absolutely within the scope of the thread. Vortex made an excellent point there. The title of this thread should be with a practical rather than scientific application, because I am not seeing much in the way of "scientific depth" especially compared to the parallel thread, which is the scientific/theoretical aspect.

[ChiDragon]

Let's continue and review with the help of the modern science to see how did Master Chen to maintain his body strength against the strong man in Asia and China.

 

So far, the formula for the summation of forces was used to see what Master Chen need to do to maintain the point of contact at zero.

F1 = Weight of Long Wu

F2 = Weight of Chen Xioawang

E = The force to be exerted by Chen to maintain equilibrium

 

F1--------->0<--------F2 + E

350 ------->0<-------200 + 150

 

The finally conclusion: Chen was using his own tremendous body strength to hold the strongest man in his life. The tremendous body strength was know as Jin(勁) in Tai Ji term. With the help of modern scientific knowledge, it leads us to correlate "Jin" to the scientific term "adenosine triphosphate (ATP)". How do they correlate with each other...???

 

It was based by a statement made by Chen in Video-2 and the basic biochemical energy formula on muscle contraction:

1. Chen : "The chi must merge with the muscles to Fa Jin."

2. Basic formula: Glucose + Oxygen = Water + C02 + Heat + Energy

 

In comparison, the Chi is analogous to Oxygen and Jin is analogous to Energy(ATP). Since the combination of chi and muscle are require to generate Jin and the muscles do require oxygen to generate the energy, therefore there is a big correlation in the two statements which involve with the muscle movement. The common factor here is the movement of the muscle which is the main criteria with the same ingredients for the energetic process. Therefore, unless otherwise, I have come to a conclusion that Jin(body strength) and ATP(biochemical energy) are correlated to each other as far as Tai Ji Chuan is concern.

 

Note:

In the Chinese language, in general, Chi is a gaseous substance. In terms of breathing, it has the meaning of "air" or "breath".

Edited December 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

What initiates the the Cori cycle? (the actual process of ATP conversion.)

[ChiDragon]

Since I had concluded this thread, but there are lot more pointers, in the videos, I would like to share with those who are interested. It is very interesting to talk about it by going into the refinements of the martial arts. I think the stance and breathing of the two masters, during the match, are worthwhile to talk about it.

Edited December 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Here is one noticeable point that was interesting to see.

 

In video-2, Master Chen talks about the importance of to have the chi in the dan tian, at all times, because dan tian is the most vulnerable spot in the body to anybody. Therefore, when one is in a strength match, the worse thing was to have the opponent attack one's weakest spot.

 

In Video-1, let's look, at 3:50, and see what Master Chen was doing to his opponent. While his opponent was perspiring, Chen was using his Jin to strike the right hip of his opponent three times. Please note that, every time, his opponent got hit at the vulnerable area, his body jumps up a bit. What is happening was that his looses his chi in the dan tian which makes him the weakest person at the moment. For a fair competition, one should not use an extra force upon the other.

Edited December 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Interesting point 2 ---The most power stance.

 

Dialogue from Video-1

 

After Round 2.....

 

Long: "His point of strength and where is the point of cancellation between his and my strengths, basically, I cannot find it.

Chen: "He used full throttle and still not able to push me to move."

 

Long: "Therefore, during the course that I was in the moving process, actually I had changed my step position. At the beginning, I was at my right side. Then, at the time I turned to his back at the right, there was a big sway on his whole body."

 

Chen: "It is because occasionally, he was just changing his strength but he knows how to make changes. He changes very rapidly."

 

Long: "Therefore, I will move quickly and exert force again. That's right. I should not have any problem."

 

In the strength match, Master Chen was not just took the most ultimate strength test against the strongest man in Asia and Chines. He also took the upmost test of his Zhan Zhuang practice. Please notice that he was not standing on the ground with friction but he is standing on a frictionless mat. The slippage on the mat will make it much harder for him to anchor himself in place. Another words, he must exert extra Jin in his leg muscles.

 

How did Master Chen make changes to his strength so quickly. The key in on his right foot. Please notice when Long moved his whole body to a different position, Mater Chen only moved his right foot pointing at the direction where Long had just moved. This is a very effective way to resist a force from the pushing direction.

 

Another thing we should have noticed that the Master was using the most power stance to go against a pushing force. The stance was called the "Bow and Arrow Stance" with the bent leg in front and the straight leg in the back. The reason it was called as such is very obvious because that is the most effective way to shoot an arrow with a bow. BTW At this position of the stance, the bent right leg was considered to be the "bow" and the straightened left leg was considered to be the "arrow".

 

The stance allow one to rest the body weight was right lower leg. The left leg was used as a supporting beam for the whole body, in a diagonal position, against a pushing force.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Interesting point 3 --The Internal Art......Neigong(內功)

 

Yes, let's talking about internal arts. It is time to look closely inside Chen Xioawang's body to see how he mastered his internal arts. So far, we know Master Chen has to maintain his resisting force of 150 pound by generating his Jin constantly. Thus he knew that, at the time, once his Jin was collapsed then he will be pushed out of the Yin-yang circle immediately. What is the worse case that will cause his Jin to be collapsed...??? From his internal arts skill, he knew darn well that he must not release his chi (in terms of oxygen) from the dan tian during the one-minute strength match. Finally, this will give us a chance to go into breathing which is Chi Kung, the ultimate method of breathing. Chi Kung is the prerequisite for neigong(internal arts). Neigong is a method to control the body internally to prolong the body strength for a persistent duration.

 

In the case of Master Chen, in order for him to prolong his body strength, he requires a constant source of energy to generate his Jin continuously. He knew that he must not exhale completely for one minute. How can he do that...??? There is the real ultimate breathing skill from Chi Kung practice. First of all, he must use the reverse breathing method then compress his breath rather than holding the breath.

 

What was that all mean in terms of modern science....???

In order for Master Chen to keep up with his body strength, he needs a constant supply of oxygen for the mitochondria in his body cells to manufacture ATP. "Constant" means that he cannot exhale his breath completely because his ATP energy will collapse as soon he does that. Thus he must exhale slowly to release the carbon dioxide while keeping the oxygen inside.

 

PS....

The effect of the reverse breathing and compressing the chi inside the lungs will be discussed to show how it was done in the next post.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Interesting point 4 --- The Importance of Breathing.

 

The application for the ultimate breathing method is a lot different from the regular practice. During practice, one can inhale and exhale anytime. However, in a combat situation, one would like to inhale as long as one can and exhale very slowly.

 

Video-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf4taeqht0

 

Let's look at each round, from the beginning to the end, Master Chen had his mouth closed at all times while Long is opening his mouth yelling and screaming. Indeed, both are doing the opposite of each other. Master Chen was using the best breathing method while Long was using the worse. The kind of breathing method was used by each person is very significant to determine the outcome of the match. Inhalation in breathing is to provide a source of oxygen to generate the body energy. Therefore, one would like to breathe as much oxygen as possible in one inhalation. Then the oxygen shall be retained inside the lungs as long as possible. However, breathing involves inhalation and exhalation. Inhalation is to breathe deeply; but a special technique for exhalation is need to retain the oxygen for a duration of time.

 

Here is the special technique for retaining the Chi(in terms of oxygen) inside the lungs after one deep inhalation. It may be difficult to describe for one to understand but I'll try.

 

With the mouth closed at all times, using the reverse breathing method and take one deep inhalation, one should feel a compression in the trachea. The compression was due the reverse breathing and inhalation. Try to circulate the Chi up and down in the trachea but do not try to hold the breath. While the Chi was being circulated, release a small amount of air through the nostrils in one short burst then go back to compress the Chi again in the trachea.

 

The reason for one not to hold the breath because it will cut off the oxygen being supplied to the head and the face will be turned red due to suffocation. When holding the breath, one will feel that the Chi was compressed downward instead of circulating. As long there was oxygen in the lungs, the heart will be able to deliver the oxygenated blood to the body cells. Hence, the cell respiration process will continue to manufacture the biochemical energy ATP.

 

In Long's case, each time when he yell and scream that will cause him to exhale and the manufacturing process of ATP ceases. Under this condition, it will make him the weakest at the time and most vulnerable for Master Chen to push him back. Let's look at 9:00 in Round 2, Long was yelling and screaming, Master Chen had taken the advantage of that and regain his position in the Yin-yang circle.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

C'mon CD, what initiates the process of ATP conversion? Its not a rhetorical question

[ChiDragon]

C'mon CD, what initiates the process of ATP conversion? Its not a rhetorical question

 

I think I had another thread on that long time ago. It is a general knowledge. Please go google it yourself and do your own homework.

 

BTW Do you know what is an "action potential"......????

Edited December 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Animation showing how ATP was released for muscle contraction:

 

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072495855/student_view0/chapter10/animation__breakdown_of_atp_and_cross-bridge_movement_during_muscle_contraction.html

 

If the ATP was not released, then muscle contraction cannot be taken place.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Human biochemical energy --- ATP

 

For those who study martial arts should have some of this basic knowledge.

[joeblast]

I think I had another thread on that long time ago. It is a general knowledge. Please go google it yourself and do your own homework.

 

BTW Do you know what is an "action potential"......????

I'm not asking for my own sake, I was trying to see if you'd gleaned anything off of your scholarly pursuits. You keep putting in little dashes of verbiage that says you might have the answer, but then you keep on and it sounds like you dont

[ChiDragon]

I glad to see you to start your own post that is more presentable. Thank you in advance. No more empty shells, please. I do not wish to continue with this nonsense implicating that "I know something that you don't." So, please....!!!!!!!!!!!

[joeblast]

Well, I was under the impression that I would ask a question and get an answer instead of you trying to avoid it, then turning it back on me, saying please dont play games when I say I'm not asking because I need to know. If its such common knowledge, why did you defer answering? There was a point to my question and where it was going after that, but then the translator wishes to play charades. You make me ask myself why I bother in trying to assist in underlining principles to help your thread towards being fruitful and informative. Chrissakes, I dont ask to puff out my chest and say I know more than you do.

[ChiDragon]

hahahaha....I still haven't heard a word from you yet.

 

I don't want to contaminate this thread with some unnecessary arguments. Would you like to initiate your own thread if there is something you would like to discuss....???

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

I didnt want to taint your answer by providing my own, was that not pretty obvious? That gets done to you plenty around here since you sometimes make tenuous statements. If you had just opened up, then we wouldnt have gone back and forth for half a dozen replies with the conversation not having moved an inch.

[ChiDragon]

Animation showing how ATP was released for muscle contraction:

 

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072495855/student_view0/chapter10/animation__breakdown_of_atp_and_cross-bridge_movement_during_muscle_contraction.html

 

If the ATP was not released, then muscle contraction cannot be taken place.

 

It was very clear that muscle contraction initiates the generation of ATP. BTW The brain issues a signal called the "action potential" to command the muscles to contract. As long the action potential was being fired, the muscles continue to contract. Thus, most importantly, the ATP were constantly being generated.

 

Again, that leads to the idea about the breathing of oxygen. Without oxygen, the ATP cannot and will not be generated within the mitochondria in the muscles. However, the ATP production cycle is another issue has to be addressed elsewhere because it is not part of the scope of this thread(please read the title of this thread).

Edited December 11, 2012 by ChiDragon