A review of AYP from an ex practitioner

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Until recently I did AdvancedYogaPractices. Ive read some of Tibetan Ice's posts critiquing AYP, and I agree with much of what he's said.

 

I'm fully expecting some people to make comments like 'every path leads up the mountain', or to tell me not to judge. But as everyone's mind works on the same principles, clearly practices need to be based on certain principles if they are to lead up the mountain. In other words, every VALID path leads up the mountain, and not all are valid. The first step towards truth is fair and open debate to spot falsehood.

 

I followed AYP for under 2 years compared to TI's 4 and a half, but I feel like I should add my thoughts on the matter so people can make an informed decision on the pros and cons of Yogani's system.

 

 

 

Deep Meditation

The core of AYP is DM, which is a meditation where you mentally repeat a mantra invented by Yogani, in an effortless way. Its basically TM, but with a different mantra.

 

This method worked for me for a while, but ultimately, by the nature of the practice, it leads to a dead end. If you just watch the mind use the mantra, then your coarser mental processes will slow down and the mantra will refine. However, once the mantra refines into silence what do you do to go further? You're told to use no sustained effort whatsoever, so you rest in that fuzzy pseudo-clarity for a while until the mantra comes back.

 

If you're lucky, you might experience samadhi once in a while, for a brief time. But I am aware of no AYP practitioner who's really refined their mind and mastered any level of samadhi. I haven't reached samadhi yet (I've only been into this stuff for about 2 years, and much of that time was in AYP), but I can tell you that towards the end with AYP it was getting clear that I wasn't advancing any further. Indeed, TM'ers only seem to reach a basic relaxation that could be achieved by repeating any word mindlessly (and remember, DM basically is TM).

 

DM is better than nothing, so long as you manage not to end up cultivating torpor. I did get into the habit of meditating at least, and was able to reach a slightly clearer, slightly more refined mental state than before. And I 100% agree that meditation and suchlike is more important than working with prana. That's one area Yogani is spot on, IMO. But since I started anapana instead, the difference is obvious: much richer, more natural, smoother. Anapana has stages leading on to samadhi, and the right balance between sustained effort and force. As does any real technique.

 

Someone posted on the AYP forum:

I'm completing my third month of consistent DM and a lot has changed recently... Now I find myself totally blanking out for 3-5 minutes. Not just getting lost in mental chatter or drifting off in thoughts...but elaborate mental scenarios that I won't even realize I'm in until I snap out of it like 5 minutes later. They totally swallow me up and the mantra and I don't have a chance. The mantra gets swept away like a snowflake in a tsunami. Snapping out of it is like waking after deep dreaming and really having to re-orient myself like "Where am I?...Oh yeah, I'm here meditating." These are not visions or anything, just nonsensical yet very complicated dreams. It's accompanied by a heavy sleepy feeling.

Is this really desirable?

 

I've realised that the 'refinement' of the mantra in DM is actually moderate laxity, a weak awareness of the mantra. As vividness increases, the object of meditation should become super-sharp.

In anapana for example, while the breath does refine, we focus more closely on it and so become more vividly aware of it, rather than begin to lose touch with it and 'rest in stillness', which is coarse laxity.

If the mind seems empty, there are probably many mental functions going on which are just not being perceived.

AYP pranayama

 

The pranayamas in AYP are focused on the sushumna nadi as far as the third eye, then forward to between the eyebrows. You take prana up on inhale and down on exhale along this route for the basic 'spinal breathing', in 'spinal bastrika' you breathe faster a la bastrika pranayama, and there are some which include kumbhaka. There is little direct focus on the chakras, which I feel is wise. What's the point of making the pump powerful if the pipe is still clogged?

 

AYP practitioners seem unusually rife with kundalini issues and whatnot. Yogani says this is because the practices are so powerful, but I doubt it. I think it's because there are flaws in their design.

 

Holding mulabanda on inhale and exhale is a very unusual practice. It means that on the exhale you are taking the combined prana and apana from the inhale back down to the root to combine with yet more apana and prana. Anyone doing that for even slightly too long would have the equivalent of an uncontrolled fusion reaction taking place right where the kundalini rests.

 

Also if the prana and kundalini starts really flowing, it will go up the sushumna and have nowhere else to turn because none of the other nadis are properly developed yet. The classic yoga pranayamas often don't ask you to direct the prana along a particular nadi, so that the whole system can clean up naturally, in a balanced way.

 

I now do simple nadi shodana pranayama, with kumbhaka after the inhales, with no attempt at all to guide the prana. It's much better. I actually feel the prana doing its thing more than I did with AYP, but that prana can flow how it should all around.

 

It's not that guiding prana is bad in itself. It's just that AYP does it without forethought, and exclusively in one area. What about the feet, arms, sides, back, front?

 

AYP claims working on the sushumna automatically clears the whole system because its the main channel, so more prana through there, more flushing along the whole system. But thats nonsense because prana, like everything else, tends to take the path of least resistance. Technically its correct, but youd need to do AYP pranyama for two hundred years to really get somewhere. It would be like flushing a fire hose down the Nile to try to clear pollution from the world's entire water system.

 

And even then, youre still not past the form skhanda!

 

 

The AYP approach to asanas

 

I never practiced the AYP asana sequence as its in the books and I never bought any of them (judging by the contents pages, its just the online lessons and a little more). However, the AYP approach of asanas being a relatively minor practice, and as a warm-up for pranayama and meditation, is something I really agree with. The other 7 limbs are somewhat overshadowed by asana these days, and AYP tries to counteract this. Good job Yogani!

 

AYP recommends siddhasana as the posture to sit for practice. I did it for a while, although without back support (AYP suggests back support, but unless you need it I think it increases risk of torpor) and it was OK, but after a while I gave it up and sat cross-legged. Try siddhasana, it might work for you though.

 

 

'Self pacing' and terrible kundalini advice.

 

AYP advises people pace themselves if they have issues. Sensible, though maybe Yogani wouldnt have to devote so much time to saying this if his practices were better designed. Tibetan Ice exposes the crap advice AYP gives to people with kundalini issues here.

 

"AYP has no practice about how to learn to direct the energy flow and store it safely away or rid the excess into the ground. Although it is very nice and commendable that there are so many people at AYP who are willing to 'help' and voice their opinions (or parrot the standard AYP opinions), the solutions that are presented such as "abstaining from practice", "eating heavy meals", "practise Spinal Breathing and Meditation", performing "other mantra practices", "alternate nostril breath" are a real hodgepodge of advice. Some suggestions work to some minimal degree and some suggestions will exacerbate the situation. Let the buyer beware! There is never any mention or clear understanding of a direct approach to control the path of the flow of kundalini."

 

"In AYP, Spinal Breathing's path is up the spine, makes a 90 degree turn at the center of the head to the brow, and then reverses the path back down the spine to muladhara. So what happens in a full blown kundalini experience that is rushing up the spine to the crown? Wouldn't trying to take the current back down the spine be like trying to swim against the current? Doesn't it make more sense to take the energy down the front channel instead and store it in the lower tan tien?" (Spinal breathing is often advised as a solution to K issues!)

 

Over the last 3-4 years, the routine shrank dramatically, practices were discarded and time reduced as self-pacing became a primary requirement as symptoms of "over-load" would creep in from time to time. Eventually it whittled its way down to the only viable amount with which stability could be found and that was with 6 minutes of DM twice per day, not to mention on-going inquiry. This did well for approximately 1 to 1.5 years.

To my disappointment at the time, eventually that became too much as well and being stubbornly reluctant to give-up meditation, breath meditation was tried for a while and it did work. Eventually though, that proved too much as well, so then (of course) Mindfulness Meditation was tried, predictably before long the writing on the wall was undeniable. Just to be sure though, I took many breaks away from practice, only to find overload looming within a few minutes of practice each time I came back to it.

So not that it was much of a decision but in the end, the only viable way to go forward was for all practices to stop. It became discernable after a couple months away that a huge momentum had accumulated over the last many years...

The scenery half-truth

 

In AYP all experiences are treated as scenery on the road to enlightenment. While I certainly advise not getting fixated on flashy stuff along the way, this motto isnt quite right. A more accurate statement would be experiences arent the destination so dont get sidetracked, but some of them are really useful signposts. Astral projection is scenery. Insignificant pranic experiences are scenery. Contact with advanced beings who can guide you is not scenery, so long as you are sensible and dont obsess over it at the expense of your practice!

 

Some experiences are signs that you should change your practice. The experience of going nowhere told me it was time to leave AYP. The experience of a nimitta appearing in anapana is a sign to shift focus from the physical breath to it, to progress further towards samadhi. Yogani doesnt seem able to understand this:

 

When breath suspends in breath meditation, we just relax in stillness until the impulse of breath returns.

Which brings us neatly to my next point...

 

 

Inner stillness and ecstatic conductivity

 

Yogani sees the stillness when thoughts slow down as the Self, not realising that there are layers of the psyche still working outside this small bubble of silence. What of the chitta, buddhi, and the levels of samadhi? You wont get to them because you need focused awareness to do that! Yogani has the audacity to say that inner stillness is the Self, when it isnt even anywhere near the consciousness skhanda, let alone beyond it; beyond existence and non-existence, subject and object, space and time. AYPers end up clinging to a little bubble of stillness, which is often not even real stillness but just torpor, as the friggin absolute basis of reality!

 

In response to someone asking how I know AYP'ers experience torpor:

Hi, Jeff. A good question. Obviously I can't look into someone else's mind, however I have several good reasons behind my opinions which correlate nicely with each other:

• Personal experience - I did AYP daily for almost 2 years.
• Others experience - TI did AYP for 4 and a half years and has said the same as me. Gatito did AYP too and also agrees.
• Scientific evidence - studies on TM (which is the same as DM but just with a different mantra, as TM teachers have confirmed) have found that the effects on brainwaves are the same as mindlessly repeating a word until you space out.
• Logical principles - it makes sense that a technique where no focused attention is used, just a slight favouring of the mantra, would lead to a dull state of mind alternating between listlessly using the mantra on autopilot and dull blankness.
• Experience of AYP'ers - refer to the quote in the first post on this thread, the person reporting drifting into a sleepy state regularly. On the thread that came from, others report the same experience, and someone said it lasted for months for them!
• AYP'ers report positive experiences, but - these are rare, and often include references to feeling dissosciated from reality, spaced-out, etc, so it's clear AYP'ers often mistake torpor for 'inner silence'.

Ecstatic conductivity is defined as a pleasurable flow of prana through the opened sushumna. AYP really says this is HALF of enlightenment? Its surely just a foundational stage of pranic development, and (ironically!) scenery. AYP does say to its credit that ecstatic conductivity alone leads nowhere, but I still think it makes much too big a deal of it.

 

 

Pseudo-samyama

 

Tibetan Ice goes into this here.

 

 

AYP Tantra

 

To Yogani, Tantra is just sexual practices.

 

But hey, at least he acknowledges the need to retain veerya/jing and transmute it, although once again the theory behind this is very flaky in AYP. Semen actually travelling up into the brain? Obviously not! The seminal fluid is just a physical counterpart of veerya, not the veerya itself.

 

Many yogis these days don't mention this AT ALL, so big kudos to Yogani there.

 

Daily life outside practices (quoting myself from 30/12/12)

Yogani says:

When we do practices, we coax our nervous system into a different style of functioning -- sustaining deep silence (pure bliss consciousness). And in later stages when kundalini is active, ecstatic bliss. To stabilize all this we go out and are active in the world every day. There is fading of the higher functioning during activity as we work it into daily living. The fading happens over 5-10 hours. Then we can do practices again and re-establish the higher style of functioning again, to be faded in activity again. This cycle can be done twice a day by doing practices morning and early evening.

So this approach is to do practices twice a day, and completely forget about it for the whole rest of the day.

 

Even if the AYP practices were effective and safe, this approach would be a case of one step forward, one step back. If between practices you don't use mindfulness/introspection/virtue cultivation/mantra/self-inquiry/etc; surely there will be cultivation during practice time but in the majority of the day the old samskaras will be reasserting themselves?

 

Common sense states that cultivation requires sustained practice because we're trying to completely overhaul the deepest layers of negative habits, ignorance, and so on. How can one advance far in (for example) shamatha from concentrating in meditation for the AYP suggested 40mins (20mins, 2 sessions), then returning to usual multitasking and mindlessness for the rest of the day? And when we consider that in AYP meditation involves no effort at all... well, it's not hard to see that mental flickering will not be uprooted to unveil natural stability, just glossed over with torpor or at best relaxation.

 

The same applies for any aspect of the path to enlightenment.

 

 

Conclusion

 

Is AYP all bad? No. I wasnt harmed personally during the nearly 2 years I practiced it. As I say, it did get me started and through AYP I was able to develop beyond the level where it still helps you. There are some nuggets of good stuff mixed in there!

 

Read the AYP lessons as food for thought and to exercise your skepticism muscles if you like, but don't do their practices. AYP is an experiment and its practitioners are the guinea pigs...

 

I 100% agree that all valid practices lead to the same goal - as someone who uses methods from Buddhism, Daoism and Yoga; and tries to learn from every tradition. However, the question is 'are ALL techniques valid'? To take an extreme example, clearly if our path consists of wearing a hat made of cheese we will only end up with cheesy hair.

I think it's sensible to say that a valid path will: foster virtue, develop the mental stability and vividness required for jhana (shamatha), build insight, and cultivate chi without causing kundalini syndrome. Any path that doesn't include all of these is incomplete at best. Let's look at AYP from this angle briefly.

*Virtue: AYP does seem to encourage virtue, can't really knock it there.

*Shamatha: if you please read the posts made by myself and Tibetan Ice on this thread, you will see detailed arguments and evidence stating that AYP meditation is actually a bit of a disaster in this regard, cultivating an unhealthy mental fuzziness. Also read http://thetaobums.com/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/

*Insight: AYP is fair in this regard, though nowhere near, say, Zen. It points towards realisation of pure consciousness, mistaking consciousness for the Self. But that's still a high stage, and AYP'ers have described realisations of no-self.

*Chi without kundalini syndrome: this is another area AYP is shocking, which I explain in detail in my previous posts, and TI and others discuss here - http://thetaobums.com/topic/23437-does-ayp-give-bad-kundalini-advice/

Edited June 29, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Eskrimador]

You was a long two years finding that?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

'Fraid so. Kinda wish I'd realised earlier.

[gatito]

'Fraid so. Kinda wish I'd realised earlier.

 

Me too.

[Eskrimador]

Long time but best you find out after two years than after twenty tears.

What you do now?

[gatito]

An interesting and relevant post by guruyoga

 

http://thetaobums.co..._16#entry312785

 

This has various aspects to it. I am only theoretically familiar with Mahesh Yogi’s Transcendental Meditation ™, so do take what I write here with a pinch of salt.

 

Bija mantras, while originating from the fourth Veda, the Atharvana, are chiefly Tantric (and also Puranic on account of influence of the Tantras) in nature. It is debatable whether Acharya Shankara was a practitioner of Tantra and had any favorable leanings towards it. While Shankara was a non-dualist, most Tantra during his time seemed to be flawed (in his perspective) on two accounts: a. They were dualistic nature on the lines of Siddhanta and Pashupata tantras b. Were seen as transgressing the diktat of Shruti or the Veda, which was of primary importance to Shankara. Based on many of his hagiographies, he is also seen as someone who vehemently opposed the excesses in Tantra such as ruthless killing, meaningless debauchery involving meat, wine and women. However, in his list of universally accepted works, there is no Tantric content available. That said, works such as Prapanchasara (with a commentary attributed to Shankara’s chief disciple Padmapada) and Saundaryalahari are also traditionally attributed to Shankara. Some also point out that he does not specifically deal with Shakta Tantric doctrine while refuting various other schools in his philosophical works. So, it is quite possible that he himself was a Tantric practitioner. Moreover, if one were to account for tradition, the unbroken lineage of seers in his four Mutts (monasteries) have all been practitioners of Tantra. Srichakra or Sriyantra is installed in all monasteries of Shankara and Srividya school of Tantra is given primary importance in all of them. Today, Kashmir Shaivism remains a theory with no living lineage of practical tantra except for armchair philosophy schools such as that of Swami Lakshman Joo. Srividya school on the other hand shares its philosophical content with Kashmir Shaivism but is a 'more' living school of practical Tantra with three flavors: Samaya (internal), Dakshina (right) and Vama (left). The Shankarite monasteries and its followers have for the most part kept this ancient school of Tantra alive, something that the Kashmir Shaivites failed to achieve to the same degree, chiefly on account of barbaric Islamites who killed and are continuing to kill millions of Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir. It is a wonder though that they have preserved whatever they have, when they have been subjected to one of the worst (and continued) genocides in the history of the World.

 

So, let’s assume Shankara indeed taught Tantra as outlined in his works Prapanchasara and Saundaryalahari. Any case, we have the age old practice of Srividya Tantra that is followed in all his lineages today. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, the former Shankaracharya of Badari/Joshi Mutt, apart from being a distinguished scholar and Advaitin, was also a well-known Tantric practitioner of Srividya Tantra. He was also a well-known Siddha popular among the masses in the early part of this century and his supposed superhuman powers were widely documented and discussed at that time. He was initiated into the Dashanami order of monks by Swami Krishnananda Saraswati (all Dashanami monks trace their lineage to Acharya Shankara). Swami Rama frequently speaks of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati as a well-known practitioner of Srividya Tantra. Swami Karapatri of Kashi, a well-known Siddha and Tantric scholar, also was associated with Swami Brahmananda Saraswati and was instrumental in establishing him as the Shankaracharya of Joshi Mutt. One of my teachers was a direct disciple of Swami Karapatri (Sri Hariharananda Saraswati) and through both these sources, it can be established beyond doubt that Swami Brahmananda Saraswati was a Tantric practitioner of Srividya Tantra, easily the most sophisticated branch of Tantra from India, oft described as the culmination or apex of the Tantric movement.

 

Coming to Mahesh Yogi, he was a clerk at the office of the Shankaracharya of Joshi mutt. It is highly doubtful if he received any transmission/initiation into Tantra by the scholarly Shankaracharya and even if he did to an extent, it is almost impossible that he was inducted into the hoary tradition of Srividya Tantra. But, as many now note, he seems to have closely observed and absorbed the practices of the Shankaracharya, which included the Bija mantras. This, IMO, was what he used to reconstruct his own system that he called TM.

 

What are ‘Bija’ mantras? Translation is easy - seed sounds. But there are two ways to look at it. In terms of classification of the Tantric mantras, based on the number of syllables, there are different types of mantras - Pinda, Kartari, Bija, Mantra and Mala. Then, every mantra also is supposed to have four parts: Bija, Pinda, Samjna and Pada. Essentially, Bija mantras or seed mantras are monosyllable mantras which are used independently or in combination. They are also called so because they instill the root energy of the deity or the essence of the deity it corresponds to within the practitioner. With careful nurturing, the seed grows into a tree and fruits and flowers are produced - which represent various Siddhis, the penultimate one being complete identification with the deity or the essence/concept that the deity represents. Does one pick Bijas or mantras randomly, no.

 

One first goes through a process called Siddhadi Shodhana - where various kinds of analysis/tests are done including astrological ones where one determines if a particular mantra is suited for a person - thus arriving at the nature of a particular mantra specific to that practitioner, whether the mantra is mitra (friend), ari (foe), siddha (capable of granting the desired fruit) and so on. Then there is the process of initiation where a Shaktipat is done (based on the capabilities of the teacher and the student), the deity is installed within the student as a seed (through prana, mudra, nyasa and other ways) and a connection is established to the Siddha Mandala or the enlightened lineage of masters associated with that mantra/deity. Then the student performs shushka japa (dry japa - which is pretty much a mechanical recitation of the mantra) as much as possible to get a hang of the mantra and absorb its raw power. This is the only part I see actually present in Mahesh Yogi’s system. Then the student is taught skillful ways to refine his practice. Various kinds of dharanas of the mantra are taught - on breath, on chakras, on space, on deity, on emptiness, on everything-ness etc. There is contemplation on the essential nature of the deity, its astral form, its sound form (mantra), light form (yantra or mandala) and so on. There are specific techniques to regulate the massive amount of energy generated by such practices - through specific mudras, nyasa (physical and mental placement of mystic syllables within the body), pranayama etc. At a very advanced stage, there could be sexual practices (not followed by monks though) such as Dutiyaga, Bhairavi Chakra, Latayoga etc.

 

So, if you look at this rather systematic scheme of Tantra, and compare it with Mahesh Yogi’s system or that of AYP, there is hardly any similarity. Most of the syllables he gave out in his TM practices were Bija mantras associated with Hindu deities but he chose to strip them of their original purport to make them palatable to the “secular” crowd. Probably those practicing it did get some benefit from the inherent vibratory potency of the Bijas (a part of what a traditional practitioner gets in the shushka japa stage), but I am pretty sure the random use of Bijas did cause damage to a lot of people. Again, like today’s Yoga, picking one small aspect (such as repetition of Bija mantra in this case), from a larger and holistic framework and trying to use it in isolation can only give limited result. Yogani's intentions are sincere, he is clearly not here to make money but to help in his own way, but when it comes to mantras, unfortunately, he is way off the mark.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Long time but best you find out after two years than after twenty tears.

What you do now?

 

• Zhunti mantra during the day.
• 3 mins of surya namaskar.
• 5 mins of simple nadi shodhana pranayama. Really gets chi moving in a far more balanced way than the AYP techniques.
• An hour of anapana sati. Actually trying to focus makes it so obviously... deeper and richer, than DM.
• 28 mins metta bhavana. A lovely, rewarding practice.
• Horse stance. No pain, no gain. LOL.

This routine is much better. I'm glad I didn't stick with the wrong practice for another 18 years!

 

*list updated since original post*

 

An interesting and relevant post by guruyoga

 

http://thetaobums.co..._16#entry312785

 

Yes, I agree Yogani doesn't really know what he's doing.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Yogani's concept of 'natural vajroli':

 

By natural vajroli, we mean a natural drawing up of sexual essences through the urethra into the bladder and through many pathways upward in the neurobiology... This process occurs in both men and women, and is an integral part of the rise of full-time ecstatic conductivity in the body, which evolves further to become ecstatic radiance going out beyond the body.

 

 

We can assume that by 'sexual essenses' Yogani doesn't mean veerya/jing but actual semen/female ejaculate as this is consistent with the general opinion of AYP'ers, who get all their opinions from Yogani. So he's confusing energy with its physical counterparts...

 

For women, Yogani is suggesting that mere fluids will somehow swim up the ureter (!), get into the kidney, be absorbed into the blood, then become veerya somehow, and presumably transmute into prana and so on.

 

For men, at least sperm can swim, but in order to survive they will have to be floating in semen. So the various fluids involved have to travel somehow (without being moved by powerful muscular contraction as in ejaculation) to the vesicles seminalis or whatever (I'm not a doctor), surviving the urea in the bladder, be broken down into small molecules by the kidney which suddenly produces digestive enzymes now (WTF?), and also get into the blood. Then magically turn from matter into veerya too.

 

And for both genders, what happens when urine flows down the ureter to the bladder? Those sexual fluids better have damn good climbing ropes!

 

Look at the diagram. And facepalm that quite a few people probably believe Yogani and think what I just described really happens.

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Seeker

I'm very glad that you've written what you have. I agree with your posts. Thank you. It is so nice to see that someone else can actually think for themselves.

 

The part that I'm very sad about is that AYP calls luminosity and clarity of the mind "Scenery" and simply ignores it. I would have never known that the mind is luminous, bright and shiny, that the clarity can be brighter and more crisp than normal reality, had I not abandoned AYP and turned to historically accepted classic practices. In a way it is worse than starting over because I gained many bad habits from doing AYP for so long.. AYP is training in laxity and torpor, between periods of overloads. I wish I had never started AYP in the first place.

 

I guess in a way, I am grateful because all the crap at AYP motivated me to review the proper techniques, classic teachings and really focus on the details.. So it was a learning experience, but it took allot of time and effort and most of it was spent feeling really pissed off and angry at Yogani and his followers for all their bullshit and ignorance. AND, I also feel like an idot for having been deceived for so long.

 

Nowadays I do anapanasati, shamatha, "awareness watching awareness" and study Buddhism, Dgozchen and anything with "Vividness" or "Clarity" in it. It is so exciting when all of a sudden during meditation, the mind settles down and clears up revealing the shiny luminous space inhabited by golden light, sparse thoughts and visions, all crystal clear and spectacular.

 

Thank you for coming forward. Hopefully more people will hear the message..

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Hi TI.

 

The trouble with AYP is, it takes no intelligence or discipline. So it's easy to just follow AYP and never think twice. Every negative result or critical comment can be brushed off with a quote from the lessons, because people are never taught the fundamental principles to figure out what to do for themselves.

 

There are people on their forum who can barely do the practices any more because of constant overloads, but even after months of this they'll think 'wow, the practices are so powerful they clear up so much so fast' instead of 'this is ridiculous, there must be some problem with the practices'. MOST long-term AYP'ers are like this, but nobody seems to really think why!

 

And as you know, anyone who does openly wonder is kicked off even though AYP is supposed to be 'scientific and open to scrutiny'. I never joined their forum, fortunately. Why no 'constructive criticism' subforum, if Yogani wants to follow the scientific method?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[idiot_stimpy]

Yogani has the audacity to say that inner stillness is the Self, when it isn’t even anywhere near the consciousness skhanda, let alone beyond it; beyond existence and non-existence, subject and object, space and time.

 

I'm interested to know what you think happens beyond existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space?

 

Existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space are phenomenal objects appearing to the mind that come and go.

 

Existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space, are no different from cat dog, horse fence, cup table.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I'm interested to know what you think happens beyond existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space?

 

Existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space are phenomenal objects appearing to the mind that come and go.

 

Existence and non-existence, subject and object, time and space, are no different from cat dog, horse fence, cup table.

 

I agree with you. IMO, transcending these things is the Self which is the basis of reality, or fundamental 'suchness'. The Tao of Taoism, or Tathagatagarba of Buddhism. Buddha says in the mahaparinirvana sutra that he kept saying 'no-self' to get people to drop the skhandas, but in reality only samsaric things are subject to no-self - there is a true Self beyond samsara.

 

*edit* wow, old me didn't have a clue at this point...

Edited July 19, 2015 by Seeker of Wisdom

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Any other ex AYP'ers on here?

 

Anyone who'd like to see just how harmful AYP can be to people who do it for a few years, take a look at this section of their forum. An example from the thread "Can no longer meditate or do any practices":

 

Over the last 3-4 years, the routine shrank dramatically, practices were discarded and time reduced as self-pacing became a primary requirement as symptoms of "over-load" would creep in from time to time. Eventually it whittled its way down to the only viable amount with which stability could be found and that was with 6 minutes of DM twice per day, not to mention on-going inquiry. This did well for approximately 1 to 1.5 years.

 

To my disappointment at the time, eventually that became too much as well and being stubbornly reluctant to give-up meditation, breath meditation was tried for a while and it did work. Eventually though, that proved too much as well, so then (of course) Mindfulness Meditation was tried, predictably before long the writing on the wall was undeniable. Just to be sure though, I took many breaks away from practice, only to find overload looming within a few minutes of practice each time I came back to it.

 

So not that it was much of a decision but in the end, the only viable way to go forward was for all practices to stop. It became discernable after a couple months away that a huge momentum had accumulated over the last many years...

 

This person STILL thinks the practices are fine and this is just the process of cleaning going on! And then many other people share similar sentiments - none of them seeming to seriously consider leaving AYP. It's like they've all been hypnotised into forgetting about every other practice on the planet, and thinking AYP is the only option and is fantastic. Strange.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Jeff]

Any other ex AYP'ers on here?

 

 

Yep, there are a bunch of pro and con AYPers around the bums. I am very familiar (even visted an AYP retreat), friends with many of them, but my path has been different. I have had some good email discussions with Yogani about my concerns/differences. You will probably disagree, but I have found him to be a nice guy.

 

 

(edit - fixed "and")

Edited December 6, 2012 by Jeff

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I have had some good email discussions with Yogani about my concerns/differences. You will probably disagree, but I have found him to be a nice guy.

 

Oh, I have no personal problem with Yogani or anyone at AYP whatsoever. If he was looking for a personality cult, he would be at his retreats and manipulate vulnerable people there. If there was malicious intent to lead people down the wrong path, he wouldn't sprinkle good stuff in the mix that he doesn't have to.

 

I think he believes AYP is a good path to follow, and so he's trying to help as many as he can by sharing it. It's just a case of a good guy following a mistaken path, leading others.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Jeff]

Oh, I have no personal problem with Yogani or anyone at AYP whatsoever. If he was looking for a personality cult, he would be at his retreats and manipulate vulnerable people there. If there was malicious intent to lead people down the wrong path, he wouldn't sprinkle good stuff in the mix that he doesn't have to.

 

I think he believes AYP is a good path to follow, and so he's trying to help as many as he can by sharing it. It's just a case of a good guy following a mistaken path, leading others.

 

Have you shared your concerns with him or any of the senior members? I have found that many of the senior members augment their basic AYP practices.

 

[gatito]

Have you shared your concerns with him or any of the senior members? I have found that many of the senior members augment their basic AYP practices.

 

 

You can't share your concerns because if you do you get banned

[Jeff]

You can't share your concerns because if you do you get banned

 

AYP is definitely a "system" (good or bad depending on your view) and Yogani believes that the purpose of the main sections of forum is to explain AYP practices. If people (like me ) sometimes want to give non-AYP practice suggestions, he just says to use the Other Systems section. But, I would agree that the mods there, don't like people posting non-AYP advice to members in AYP sections. I have just found that there are few members worth having "under the covers (AYP term)" email discussions with.

 

[gatito]

AYP is definitely a "system" (good or bad depending on your view) and Yogani believes that the purpose of the main sections of forum is to explain AYP practices. If people (like me ) sometimes want to give non-AYP practice suggestions, he just says to use the Other Systems section. But, I would agree that the mods there, don't like people posting non-AYP advice to members in AYP sections. I have just found that there are few members worth having "under the covers (AYP term)" email discussions with.

 

 

This is a typical response of AYP supporters.

 

Discussion should be open -especially in order to have any right to claim "scientific validity"

 

AYP is just another closely-controlled cult

[Jeff]

This is a typical response of AYP supporters.

 

Discussion should be open -especially in order to have any right to claim "scientific validity"

 

AYP is just another closely-controlled cult

 

Didn't realize that I am "typical"...

 

But, I would agree that AYP is essentially a "closed" system. He was always fine with me posting new concepts/ideas to Other systems, but not particularly interested in discussing "changes" to the system.

 

Also, I don't see the cult part. One of the senior members, Christi, is even having an "advanced" (nonstandard stuff) retreat in the UK.

 

[gatito]

Didn't realize that I am "typical"...

 

But, I would agree that AYP is essentially a "closed" system. He was always fine with me posting new concepts/ideas to Other systems, but not particularly interested in discussing "changes" to the system.

 

Also, I don't see the cult part. One of the senior members, Christi, is even having an "advanced" (nonstandard stuff) retreat in the UK.

 

 

I said:-

 

"This is a typical response of AYP supporters"

 

And you are very much a supporter of AYP and yogani (Yogani) aren't you Jeff?

 

This discussion should be taking place on the AYP Forum but because it is a dictatorial totalitarian cult, sadly, it isn't.

 

Let's hope that this thread runs a bit longer so it makes it further up the Google rankings and people who are drawn to Yogani or yogani and Advanced Yoga Practices, AYPsite.org are able to come here and discuss their questions and concerns openly without being banned - like Tibetan Ice and me.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

When TI shared his concerns, the response was either:

• A quote from the lessons.
  
• Personal attacks, blocking and so forth.
  
• Told to stop analysing and 'just do the practices' (isn't 4 and a half years enough to know?)
  
• 'Just because it didn't work for you', etc: (completely ignoring the actual points made).
  

 

I feel it's better to make my case on a site like this and hope AYP'ers think about what I've said and have an open, fair discussion with me; than to try to post on the AYP site and never have the post allowed at all.

[gatito]

I'm hoping that I'm out of this discussion now

[Jeff]

 

I said:-

 

"This is a typical response of AYP supporters"

 

And you are very much a supporter of AYP and yogani (Yogani) aren't you Jeff?

 

This discussion should be taking place on the AYP Forum but because it is a dictatorial totalitarian cult, sadly, it isn't.

...

 

As I have said many times (in many threads), I like a bunch of the people on the AYP forum, but my practice focus has been different.

 

I also agree that healthy discussion of any path is useful and should not be a reason for banning.

 

[Jeff]

I'm hoping that I'm out of this discussion now

 

Me too.