A review of AYP from an ex practitioner

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...And Yoganis explanation and understanding of Bhakti is absolute trash bar none! That alone is enough to abandon him and his stupid 'Watered down for Dummies' yoga system...

 

Yes.

I've never been into bhakti, it's not a path that suits me. But I get the idea of it, and Yogani's 'bhakti' is something completely different. He interprets it as such a vague hodepodge of ideas that I can't even give a definition of AYP 'bhakti'.

 

In lesson T37 Yogani responds to someone asking about fantasising in solo tantra:

Fantasies for solo practice are fine. If we use them to go higher, it is a form of bhakti, yes?

 

*facepalm*

[jijaji]

Jijaji ! How are you? Long time no see!

 

Yes, isn't it nice that some people have the perspicacity to be able to tell that AYP is some kind of scientific experiment full of misinformed customized practices and unwary practitioners who suffer the consequences..

 

Hopefully more people will come forward and spread the word. We can help those who are caught in Yogani's trap and prevent people from making the same mistake that I did, if we keep at it.

 

I hope everything is well with you.

 

TI

 

T.I.,

 

I am doing well Sir, thanks and yes we need to get the word out about AYP BS , it's not being negative at all IMO...

 

just calling a spade a spade

 

[jijaji]

Yes.

I've never been into bhakti, it's not a path that suits me. But I get the idea of it, and Yogani's 'bhakti' is something completely different. He interprets it as such a vague hodepodge of ideas that I can't even give a definition of AYP 'bhakti'.

 

In lesson T37 Yogani responds to someone asking about fantasising in solo tantra:

 

 

*facepalm*

 

its just weird...

 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

It's been a while since I added to this thread, but I just realized there's another important point to mention - AYP's approach to daily activity outside practices.

 

 

When we do practices, we coax our nervous system into a different style of functioning -- sustaining deep silence (pure bliss consciousness). And in later stages when kundalini is active, ecstatic bliss. To stabilize all this we go out and are active in the world every day. There is fading of the higher functioning during activity as we work it into daily living. The fading happens over 5-10 hours. Then we can do practices again and re-establish the higher style of functioning again, to be faded in activity again. This cycle can be done twice a day by doing practices morning and early evening.

 

So this approach is to do practices twice a day, and completely forget about it for the whole rest of the day.

 

Even if the AYP practices were effective and safe, this approach would be a case of one step forward, one step back. If between practices you don't use mindfulness/introspection/virtue cultivation/mantra/self-inquiry/etc; surely there will be cultivation during practice time but in the majority of the day the old samskaras will be reasserting themselves?

 

Common sense states that cultivation requires sustained practice because we're trying to completely overhaul the deepest layers of negative habits, ignorance, and so on. How can one advance far in (for example) shamatha from concentrating in meditation for the AYP suggested 40mins (20mins, 2 sessions), then returning to usual multitasking and mindlessness for the rest of the day? And when we consider that in AYP meditation involves no effort at all... well, it's not hard to see that mental flickering will not be uprooted to unveil natural stability, just glossed over with torpor or at best relaxation.

 

The same applies for any aspect of the path to enlightenment.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

It's been a while since I added to this thread, but I just realized there's another important point to mention - AYP's approach to daily activity outside practices.

 

So this approach is to do practices twice a day, and completely forget about it for the whole rest of the day.

 

Even if the AYP practices were effective and safe, this approach would be a case of one step forward, one step back. If between practices you don't use mindfulness/introspection/virtue cultivation/mantra/self-inquiry/etc; surely there will be cultivation during practice time but in the majority of the day the old samskaras will be reasserting themselves?

 

Common sense states that cultivation requires sustained practice because we're trying to completely overhaul the deepest layers of negative habits, ignorance, and so on. How can one advance far in (for example) shamatha from concentrating in meditation for the AYP suggested 40mins (20mins, 2 sessions), then returning to usual multitasking and mindlessness for the rest of the day? And when we consider that in AYP meditation involves no effort at all... well, it's not hard to see that mental flickering will not be uprooted to unveil natural stability, just glossed over with torpor or at best relaxation.

 

The same applies for any aspect of the path to enlightenment.

 

Hi Seeker,

That definitely is a clue that something is wrong with AYP's (or Yogani's) perspective. So many teachings indicate that you must develop minfulness 24 hours a day. In AYP, you do your practice and then forget about it. In classic teachings, you eventually turn your whole day into a mindfulness practice. That is the main key. Being aware 24/7. So many teachers stress the importance of bringing your spiritual perspective and meditative state into the real world. But not Yogani. Up one step, down five. Snakes and ladders.

 

Yogani missed that. There is proof that he misses that continualy too. If you read his book on Self Inquiry, he assumed that Ramana's practice is simply to ask the question "Who am I?". He totally missed the point that Ramana is not saying that you do self-inquiry twice a day for 20 minutes, Ramana is saying that you must do that constantly. Big Difference.

 

Besides, the AYP method of Deep Meditation (or TM) will only keep you bouncing in and out of the substrate consciousness, the Alaya. Like Alan Wallace says, the Alaya is ignorance, the ground of samsara. One has to go beyond, shatter the substrate and realize the Primordial Pure Awareness. You aren't going to do that by training in laxity and dullness..

 

You know, the hard part about AYP is that when you have pruned your forum, gotten rid of all the dissidents, and have a team of parrots and brownosers all saying the same thing posting on the forum, it produces allot of pressure to believe and conform. It seemingly gives AYP credibility. It is just not right. It's kind of like AYP is the "earth is flat" club, and if somebody else doesn't tell you that that is not true, you fall victim to the belief.

 

For example, the cultivation of ecstatic conductivity in AYP is actually the cultivation and grasping of hedonism.

Hedonism is one of the five obscurations in Buddhist teachings. It clouds the mind. It is a veil. In Buddhism, you try to eliminate the veils, not cultivate them! Yogani has no idea what he is doing to people.

 

TI

Edited December 31, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

Hi All,

 

Recently, I have had some additional email exchanges with Yogani regarding on how I believe AYP could be expanded/enhanced (particularly for the advanced practioner). At this point, he is not interested in formal additions to AYP.

 

If any of you are interested, I will be posting to the "Other Systems" section over the coming weeks. Might be interesting...

 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Some comments on how my experience of a few months of anapana contrasts with my nearly 2 years of DM. There is a very clear difference.

 

 

Have you ever been so focused you didn't notice stuff in the background? That happened to me a few times as a child, before my mind got cluttered I guess. Now due to anapana, it's happened again a few times (and I mean in daily activity, not just while meditating).

 

 

This makes it obvious to me that whereas DM gave superficial relaxation and torpor, anapana is already making a lasting difference to my mental functioning. The process of TRYING to focus weeds out mental flickering and releases more of the mind's clarity, stability and strength. There's no random bobbing up and down like when I did AYP. Of course I'm most clear just after practice, but there's a consistent depth of awareness during the day, because with actual sustained effort, torpor and flickering are cut naturally as they arise and are weakened for lasting change.

 

 

The same would apply for any real practice.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Some comments on how my experience of a few months of anapana contrasts with my nearly 2 years of DM. There is a very clear difference.

 

 

Have you ever been so focused you didn't notice stuff in the background? That happened to me a few times as a child, before my mind got cluttered I guess. Now due to anapana, it's happened again a few times (and I mean in daily activity, not just while meditating).

 

 

This makes it obvious to me that whereas DM gave superficial relaxation and torpor, anapana is already making a lasting difference to my mental functioning. The process of TRYING to focus weeds out mental flickering and releases more of the mind's clarity, stability and strength. There's no random bobbing up and down like when I did AYP. Of course I'm most clear just after practice, but there's a consistent depth of awareness during the day, because with actual sustained effort, torpor and flickering are cut naturally as they arise and are weakened for lasting change.

 

 

The same would apply for any real practice.

Hi SoTS,

That is so wonderful to hear.

 

Mantra repetition is not a shamatha practice. Isn't it funny that AYP can't understand that.. and it all gets back to Yogani's defective interpretation of Patanjali's last three limbs of yoga. Actually, there is no practice in AYP that develops sustained, directed attention which leads to samadhi. And there is no advice from AYP to strive towards 24/7 awareness either, and that is what every other spiritual teachings says is part of the formula for enlightenment.. AYP says "do your practice like brushing your teeth, then forget about it". So strange..

 

If you don't mind me asking, which set of instructions are you following for your anapana practice?

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Hi TI.

 

Basically I focus on the whole experience of breathing. The flow of air through the nose, movement of the chest and stomach, etc.

 

I'm not yet at a stage where there are nimittas, breath stopping or such, but I guess the next step for me would be observing chi, and from there... I'll see what's natural as I get there.

 

Edited January 18, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI.

 

Basically I focus on the whole experience of breathing. The flow of air through the nose, movement of the chest and stomach, etc.

 

I'm not yet at a stage where there are nimittas, breath stopping or such, but I guess the next step for me would be observing chi, and from there... I'll see what's natural as I get there.

 

Hi SoTS

But do you have a manual or instruction book?

From what you have said, you are focusing on the sensations of the general breathing..

Most breathing instructions recommend not spreading your attention too wide, because you will never get a nimitta (mental representation of the breath) like that.

So it is recommended to pick a spot, like just below the navel, or at the nostrils to fix your attention on. It is easier to see the nimitta at the abdomen, but there is too much motion of the abdomen to refine the attention there.. You can pick and choose which area to focus on depending on your assesed mental state of agitation.

I think it is important to have good instructions. There are a number of teachers..

 

Alan Wallace has online podcasts and guided breath meditations. It is great..

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

His book called the Attention Revolution also contains instructions and the stages of meditation.

 

Shaila Catherine's "Focused and Fearless" is great. So is Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond".

 

Personally, I follow Allan Wallace's shamatha breath meditation instructions. I have been successful with them. And, like he says, you have to focus on the mental representation of the breath (which is the nimitta) until you get the counterpart sign. You will never get the nimitta by focusing on a wide field of physical sensations, you have to find your mental representation of the breath (nimitta) by fixing your awareness at one point.

 

It is like you imagine a flow going up and then back down in your mind, directly in front or just below your nostrils with your powers of visualization while not controlling the breathing at all. The mental representation of the breath is the nimitta. After you succeed in maintaining stable continuous attention on that visualization the background starts to get brighter. After a while, all of a sudden you will start to see a bright light, a sun or star, or wad of light behind the nimitta in the background.. That is the counterpart sign. When the counterpart sign is stable enough (ignore it until you can no longer ignore it), it will move towards you and engulf you. Then, you've succeeded.

 

It is important to get a map, otherwise you waste allot of time.

 

TI

Edited January 18, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Thanks for the advice TI. I just got 'the attention revolution' and will start it soon.

 

#edit# finished it, and I highly recommend it. http://thetaobums.com/topic/26645-the-attention-revolution/

Edited January 23, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Allan Wallace seems to define coarse laxity as a state where the attention is on a stagnant blank state WITHIN the surface mind, where thoughts normally occur.

 

This is very different to the bright clear awareness BELOW the conceptual mind, which is natural, but just hidden by the hindrances.

 

The first is reached through suppressing thoughts, or tiring out the mind through mindless repetition until it gives up thought, as in DM. The second is unveiled through shamatha.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Allan Wallace seems to define coarse laxity as a state where the attention is on a stagnant blank state WITHIN the surface mind, where thoughts normally occur.

 

This is very different to the bright clear awareness BELOW the conceptual mind, which is natural, but just hidden by the hindrances.

 

The first is reached through suppressing thoughts, or tiring out the mind through mindless repetition until it gives up thought, as in DM. The second is unveiled through shamatha.

 

Hi SotS

Yes, it is quite a revelation that DM is training in laxity, isn't it?

 

Alan Wallace even says that mantra is not a tool to be used to realize shamatha. That is not the purpose of the mantra.

 

And you know, the very funny part of the advice that Yogani gives, which he gave to Carson when Carson said that sometimes he would dissolve the mantra and then find himself in this wide open space, was to correct him and tell him that that was not the AYP practice. Yet, that practice is one of the higher Dzogchen preliminary practices.. So, Yogani's ignorance and reluctance or inability to learn something new is actually preventing AYP members from realizing true progress..

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Allan Wallace seems to define coarse laxity as a state where the attention is on a stagnant blank state WITHIN the surface mind, where thoughts normally occur.

 

This is very different to the bright clear awareness BELOW the conceptual mind, which is natural, but just hidden by the hindrances.

 

The first is reached through suppressing thoughts, or tiring out the mind through mindless repetition until it gives up thought, as in DM. The second is unveiled through shamatha.

 

Hi SotS,

How is your breath meditation going?

Mine is going very well. I think I have found the key to success.

 

During this afternoon's meditation I decided to do 1 hour of breath meditation.

 

I focused on my breathing, visualized the nimitta and then kept following it.

 

This is the technique that I use:

The secret that I have found is that the mind (or awareness) is naturally attracted to motion. So, if you can imagine a moon disc or ball of pale light moving up with the in-breath and then back down with the out-breath, it is much easier to maintain attention on it. And remember, you are not focusing on the sensation of the breath at the nostrils, nor the flow of air or anything physical. You are focusing on the mental representation of the breath. In other words, you imagine something, you visualize something that represents the breath. You visualize something moving in on the inbreath and moving out on the out-breath.

 

So, I visualize a white disc of light, similar to the moon which is moving upwards and then back downwards in concert with the breathing.

 

But even that is hard to keep track of, especially when (without contriving the breathing or willfully controlling it) you emphasize release on the out-breath and letting go at the bottom of the breathing. By letting go, you are actually releasing thoughts, and because part of the technique of "continuous attention on the breath" is to maintain a constant flow of mindfulness on many cylces of in-out breathing, you need something else to help you focus. I made up this technique while practising the one-breath from the Kunlun seminar. What you do to help you get over the bottom of the out-breath (where you tend to lose awareness) and at the top of the in-breath is to keep visualizing the moon disc in a stopped position.

 

So it goes like this. On the in-breath, you visualize the moon disc in the region in front of the nose moving upwards about 1 inch. If you want, you can even make a trail or tail like a comet follow the moon disc as it moves up. Then, at the top of the in-breath, when the breathing pauses for a second or two, you keep the visualization of the moon disc going. You can even visualize it as getting a bit brighter. Then, when the out-breath starts, you move the moon disc downwards about 1 inch. At the end of the out-breath, the moon disc is at the bottom of the inch. You keep watching the moon disc and watch the tail fade away. On the next breath, you mentally move the moon disk back up in an even motion.. by the end of the in-breath it is at the top again. Get it? It looks like you are slowly rubbing your finger up and down, up and down, wearing a channel out with your visualized moon disc.

 

But, by using this technique, I have succeeded in maintaining constant awareness on the breath. Really, what you are maintaining is constant attention on is the mental representation of the breath (the nimitta). The nimitta is actually a visualized mental form.

 

The toughest part to get through, when performing breath meditation is the first 10 minutes or so, when the mind is still active and there are lots of distracting thoughts. That is when it is the hardest to maintain constant attention. But if you can get through that with some effort, it gets easier. For my meditation this afternoon, I kind of played with the moon disc as it moved up and down. I imagined the moon disc to be the five colors of the Bon Dzogchen elements.. light yellow -earth, pink - fire, light green - air, light blue - water and white - space.. I would change the color every four of five breaths. So, to get over the first 10 or 15 minutes, I kind of played like that. But then I went back to just visualizing a whitish moon disc in motion. Up, pause, and down, pause, up pause, and down with perfect matching of the non-controlled breathing.

 

After a while, as you continue to stay fixated on the moon disc, gently moving up, pausing, down, pausing etc.. the background starts to get brighter. It starts to look like a pale wall of light or front of a cloud.

 

You just keep doing the practice, letting go on the out-breath more and more, following the visual until, something inside lets go and all of a sudden you see this very bright light. That is the counter part sign. However, if you focus on the counter part sign, it disappears. It is not yet stable enough. Your mind isn't totally relaxed just yet. So you keep following the moon disk up and down, up and down.

 

You will notice that if you are doing it right, your breathing slows down. (this is a good sign). As the mind calms down, the breathing also slows down. This is important. If you breathing speeds up, just check your thoughts. You will see that your when your thoughts increase, so does your breathing. When your thoughts decrease, your breathing slows down naturally. Mind is breath. Breath is mind.

 

As the breathing slows down, you have to adjust the motion of the moon disc to correspond with the slower speed and motion. Instead of moving the moon disc up and down 1 inch, you move it up and down by 1/2 inch, and slower too. If you want, you can even make the moon disc smaller, with a smaller tail to seem not as intrusive.. Just keep focusing on it with great interest.

 

But, as you keep your attention on the moving moon disc, and your breathing slows down, you start to see much brighter light, like the sun or a star is breaking through the clouds, appear behind the nimitta. The counterpart sign is growing in strength. The mind is becoming more and more calm. You are succeeding.

 

Then, the counterpart sign get real bright and stable, like a ball of liquid light or lightening and engulfs you and you find yourself in one of the jhanas!!!

 

Usually, when I really focus on a thought, there appears a small space surrounding the thought, which is very clear. It looks like a window has opened up into outer space. When I hit the jhana during that meditation, that space opened up much wider. And, it has been persisting ever since. I can just focus in the center of my head now and that space is now about 6 inches wide (as per before it may have been an 1/8 of an inch). It is very vivid and crystal clear in that space.

 

So, I really think the key to being successful at breath meditation is to visualize the moon disc moving up and down and don't let up. But you can't force it because then you get tense and the breathing won't slow down naturally. It is the visualized motion of the disc moving up and down that really grabs the attention. If you don't believe me, try to meditate with eyes open while looking out on a road with traffic moving it. It is much harder to sustain attention when there is movement, motion - something moving. So if you make the object of your meditation a moon disc in motion, it is much easier to sustain attention on it.

 

Good luck.

 

How have your meditations been going ?

 

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Hi, TI. My practice is going well, although as per the instructions in The Attention Revolution I focus on the sensation of breathing at the nostrils.

 

 

Alan Wallace says the nimitta will form by itself in stage 4, and although your method sounds like it works for you, I'm sticking to Wallace's. Visualisation just doesn't suit me personally.

 

 

 

In my hour-long session I only experience coarse excitation for a max of 15 seconds at a time. I'm easily on the breath most of the session, so I've achieved the 3rd stage of shamatha. Just a bit more stability and I'll reach the 4th! When it appears, I will focus on the nimitta.

 

 

I often get a peaceful\content happiness in practice which I can see becoming rapture in later stages, and a nice cool chi flowing up to my neck at times. In daily life, I feel a certain stability that's grounded in the world, but comes with a relaxing sense of resting in it without being affected much.

 

 

I've noticed the same thing about the breath and the mind. The breath can become very subtle as the mind settles. Focusing on the subtler sensation helps bring out more vividness, encouraging stability and relaxation, refining the breath more. So there's a neat upward spiral there.

 

Edited January 28, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi, TI. My practice is going well, although as per the instructions in The Attention Revolution I focus on the sensation of breathing at the nostrils.

 

 

Alan Wallace says the nimitta will form by itself in stage 4, and although your method sounds like it works for you, I'm sticking to Wallace's. Visualisation just doesn't suit me personally.

 

 

 

In my hour-long session I only experience coarse excitation for a max of 15 seconds at a time. I'm easily on the breath most of the session, so I've achieved the 3rd stage of shamatha. Just a bit more stability and I'll reach the 4th! When it appears, I will focus on the nimitta.

 

 

I often get a peaceful\content happiness in practice which I can see becoming rapture in later stages, and a nice cool chi flowing up to my neck at times. In daily life, I feel a certain stability that's grounded in the world, but comes with a relaxing sense of resting in it without being affected much.

 

 

I've noticed the same thing about the breath and the mind. The breath can become very subtle as the mind settles. Focusing on the subtler sensation helps bring out more vividness, encouraging stability and relaxation, refining the breath more. So there's a neat upward spiral there.

 

 

Hi SotS

It sounds like you are doing fine.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "Visualize" although that's what it feels like to me. I guess once you know where to find it, you just crank up your awareness and it seems like you visualize it. Works for me.

 

Just to be clear, the first part of the instruction is to focus on the sensation of breathing at the nostrils.. That part used to drive me nuts, but, luckily, I went quite easily to focusing on the "acquired sign". For me, the acquired sign is the visualization of the moving moon disc. It is when you crank up the attention on the acquired sign, especially the bottom and the top of the breathing cycle, that the moon disc appears.. This is the second form of nimitta, the third nimitta is the counterpart sign. So, there are three types of nimittas.

 

The Theravada tradition gives this specific description of achieving shamatha by way of mindfulness of the respiration: You begin this practice, as described earlier, by focusing on the tactile sensations of the breath, which are the “sign” for preliminary practice (parikamma-nimitta). Eventually you shift your attention to the acquired sign (uggaha-nimitta) of the breath, which becomes your meditative object until you achieve shamatha, at which point a third sign appears spontaneously. This is called the counterpart sign (patibhaga-nimitta) of the breath, which is a subtle, emblematic representation of the whole quality of the air element.

 

Buddhaghosa described this sign as follows: The counterpart sign appears as if breaking out from the acquired sign, and a hundred times a thousand times more purified, like a looking-glass disk drawn from its case, like a mother-of-pearl dish well washed, like the moon’s disk coming out from behind a cloud, like cranes against a thunder cloud. But it has neither color nor shape…it is born only in the perception in one who has obtained concentration, being a mere model of appearance.

Wallace Ph.D., B. Alan (2006-04-10). The Attention Revolution: Unlocking the Power of the Focused Mind: v.ution (p. 157). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

I think you are doing fine. I'm not trying to speed you up on your path or anything.. I guess I was excited that I found a method that seems to work consistently, and I do remember that Alan Wallace says this in that same book:

 

While Buddhaghosa includes certain kinds of tactile sensations among the acquired signs associated with the breath practice, the Indo-Tibetan Mahayana tradition emphasizes that advanced stages along the path to shamatha can be achieved only by focusing on a mental object, not a sensory impression.40 The reason for this is that the development of shamatha entails the cultivation of an exceptionally high degree of attentional vividness. By focusing on an object of any of the physical senses, you can certainly develop stability, but vividness will not be enhanced to its full potential. For this, a mental object is needed. It is commonly pointed out in the Buddhist tradition that shamatha is achieved with mental awareness, not sensory awareness.

Wallace Ph.D., B. Alan (2006-04-10). The Attention Revolution: Unlocking the Power of the Focused Mind: v.ution (pp. 64-65). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

All in all, yes, it is an excellent book. I think I will re-read it again..

 

Good luck. Nice talking to you.

 

TI

[JustARandomPanda]

Two good references for anyone to use for practicing meditation is the Abidhamma and Visuddhimagga. Pair either one of the above with The Diamond Sutra Explained and The Shurangama Sutra and you have most everything you need for practicing meditation safely.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Thanks TI, all clear. Our conversation does point out once again some mistakes AYP makes.

 

 

 

The fact that our independent experiences correlate to clear stages laid out many years ago contradicts the simple 'inner silence' idea, as there are definite stages of development based on much more than mere mental quiet, which anyone who practices shamatha will see for themselves.

 

 

Also, AYP would just treat nimittas as scenery, but by keeping on a physical sensation it would not be possible to get past the form skhanda or even stage 4 shamatha, probably. Yogani can't seem to understand the idea of adapting practices as one advances and has certain experiences.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi

This is what I found in a book about what AYP's Deep Meditation is actually training people in (dissolving of the mantra..)... rebirth as an animal...! Never once does AYP mention Clarity or Vividness...

 

 

- The three degrees of inferior, middling, and superior sustained attention arise as you progress through the stages of practice. The foregoing discussion covers simple quiescence practice not combined with anything else. The point of this is to maintain attentional stability, without scattering or wavering. Likewise, try to maintain the best posture possible. As a result of this practice, the compulsive ideation that continually stirs up the mind will gradually subside. For example, when water that has been stirred up with silt is let stand, it becomes clear as the silt gradually settles down. Similarly, when ideation is gradually subdued, a limpidity of awareness arises, and this is quiescence.

 

In this practice you may make the mistake of withdrawing your mind so much that you enter into a stupor in which you don't hear any external sounds, and instead feel as though you are asleep. This is not the proper state of quiescence, but an obscured state of mind. The mind has indeed been calmed, but it has been drawn too much inside, without clarity. This is not genuine quiescence. If you persist in this incorrect state of meditation for a long time, the result will be rebirth as an animal. There are a number of accounts of Lamas taking just such a rebirth as a result of their efforts in meditation. So if such a state of nonconceptual stupor should arise, it is not a hopeless situation, but you should not be attached to it. Instead, you must arouse yourself. As long as you are alive, conceptualization will continue to arise, and the correct response to that is nongrasping: whatever thoughts arise, virtuous or nonvirtuous, look at them and recognize their nature, but don't grasp onto them. Recognize that they are incapable of either harming or benefiting you. Just observe them arise and pass away, naturally. -

Karma Chagme. A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Atiyoga

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I've realised that the 'refinement' of the mantra in DM is actually moderate laxity, a weak awareness of the mantra. As vividness increases, the object of meditation should become super-sharp.

 

In anapana for example, while the breath does refine, we focus more closely on it and so become more vividly aware of it, rather than begin to lose touch with it and 'rest in stillness', which is coarse laxity.

 

If the mind seems empty, there are probably many mental functions going on which are just not being perceived.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Sunyata]

...

Edited March 29, 2013 by Sunyata

[SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist]

Until recently I did AdvancedYogaPractices. I’ve read some of Tibetan Ice’s posts critiquing AYP, and I agree with much of what he’s said.

 

I’m fully expecting some people to make comments like ‘every path leads up the mountain’ or to tell me not to judge. But as everyone’s mind works on the same principles, clearly practices need to be based on certain principles if they are to lead up the mountain. In other words, every VALID path leads up the mountain, and not all are valid. The first step towards truth is fair and open debate to spot falsehood.

 

I followed AYP for under 2 years compared to TI’s 4 and a half, but I feel like I should add my thoughts on the matter so people can make an informed decision on the pros and cons of Yogani’s system.

 

 

 

‘Deep Meditation’

The core of AYP is DM, which is a meditation where you mentally repeat a mantra invented by Yogani, in an effortless way. It’s basically TM, but with a different mantra.

 

This method worked for me for a while, but ultimately, by the nature of the practice, it leads to a dead end. If you just watch the mind use the mantra, then your coarser mental processes will slow down and the mantra will refine. However, once the mantra refines into silence what do you do to go further? You’re told to use no sustained effort whatsoever, so you rest in that fuzzy pseudo-clarity for a while until the mantra comes back.

 

If you’re lucky, you might experience samadhi once in a while, for a brief time. But I am aware of no AYP practitioner who’s really refined their mind and mastered any level of samadhi. I haven’t reached samadhi yet (I’ve only been into this stuff for about 2 years, and much of that time was in AYP), but I can tell you that towards the end with AYP it was getting clear that I wasn’t advancing any further. Indeed, TM’ers only seem to reach a basic relaxation that could be achieved by repeating any word mindlessly (and remember, DM basically is TM).

 

DM is better than nothing, so long as you manage not to end up cultivating torpor. I did get into the habit of meditating at least, and was able to reach a slightly clearer, slightly more refined mental state than before. And I 100% agree that meditation and suchlike is more important than working with prana. That's one area Yogani is spot on, IMO. But since I started anapana instead, the difference is obvious: much richer, more natural, smoother. Anapana has stages leading on to samadhi, and the right balance between sustained effort and force. As does any real technique.

 

Someone posted on the AYP forum:

 

 

 

Is this really desirable?

 

 

AYP pranayama

 

The pranayamas in AYP are focused on the sushumna nadi as far as the third eye, then forward to between the eyebrows. You take prana up on inhale and down on exhale along this route for the basic 'spinal breathing', in 'spinal bastrika' you breathe faster a la bastrika pranayama, and there are some which include kumbhaka. There is little direct focus on the chakras, which I feel is wise. What's the point of making the pump powerful if the pipe is still clogged?

 

AYP practitioners seem unusually rife with kundalini issues and whatnot. Yogani says this is because the practices are so powerful, but I doubt it. I think it's because there are flaws in their design.

 

Holding mulabanda on inhale and exhale is a very unusual practice. It means that on the exhale you are taking the combined prana and apana from the inhale back down to the root to combine with yet more apana and prana. Anyone doing that for even slightly too long would have the equivalent of an uncontrolled fusion reaction taking place right where the kundalini rests.

 

Also if the prana and kundalini starts really flowing, it will go up the sushumna and have nowhere else to turn because none of the other nadis are properly developed yet. The classic yoga pranayamas often don't ask you to direct the prana along a particular nadi, so that the whole system can clean up naturally, in a balanced way.

 

I now do simple nadi shodana pranayama, with kumbhaka after the inhales, with no attempt at all to guide the prana. It's much better. I actually feel the prana doing its thing more than I did with AYP, but that prana can flow how it should all around.

 

It's not that guiding prana is bad in itself. It's just that AYP does it without forethought, and exclusively in one area. What about the feet, arms, sides, back, front?

 

AYP claims working on the sushumna automatically clears the whole system because it’s the main channel, so more prana through there, more flushing along the whole system. But that’s nonsense because prana, like everything else, tends to take the path of least resistance. Technically it’s correct, but you’d need to do AYP pranyama for two hundred years to really get somewhere. It would be like flushing a fire hose down the Nile to try to clear pollution from the world's entire water system.

 

And even then, you’re still not past the form skhanda!

 

 

The AYP approach to asanas

 

I never practiced the AYP asana sequence as it’s in the books and I never bought any of them (judging by the contents pages, it’s just the online lessons and a little more). However, the AYP approach of asanas being a relatively minor practice, and as a warm-up for pranayama and meditation, is something I really agree with. The other 7 limbs are somewhat overshadowed by asana these days, and AYP tries to counteract this. Good job Yogani!

 

AYP recommends siddhasana as the posture to sit for practice. I did it for a while, although without back support (AYP suggests back support, but unless you need it I think it increases risk of torpor) and it was OK, but after a while I gave it up and sat cross-legged. Try siddhasana, it might work for you though.

 

 

'Self pacing' and terrible kundalini advice.

 

AYP advises people pace themselves if they have issues. Sensible, though maybe Yogani wouldn’t have to devote so much time to saying this if his practices were better designed. Tibetan Ice exposes the crap advice AYP gives to people with kundalini issues here.

 

 

The ‘scenery’ half-truth

 

In AYP all experiences are treated as scenery on the road to enlightenment. While I certainly advise not getting fixated on flashy stuff along the way, this motto isn’t quite right. A more accurate statement would be ‘experiences aren’t the destination so don’t get sidetracked, but some of them are really useful signposts’. Astral projection is scenery. Insignificant pranic experiences are scenery. Contact with advanced beings who can guide you is not scenery, so long as you are sensible and don’t obsess over it at the expense of your practice!

 

Some experiences are signs that you should change your practice. The experience of going nowhere told me it was time to leave AYP. The experience of breath stopping in anapana is a sign to shift focus from the physical breath to prana, or a namitta, or what have you to progress to samadhi. Yogani doesn’t seem able to understand this:

 

 

 

Which brings us neatly to my next point...

 

 

‘Inner stillness’ and ‘ecstatic conductivity’

 

Yogani sees the stillness when thoughts slow down as the Self, not realising that there are layers of the psyche still working outside this small bubble of silence. What of the chitta, buddhi, and the levels of samadhi? You won’t get to them because you need focused awareness to do that! Yogani has the audacity to say that inner stillness is the Self, when it isn’t even anywhere near the consciousness skhanda, let alone beyond it; beyond existence and non-existence, subject and object, space and time. AYP’ers end up clinging to a little bubble of stillness, which is often not even real stillness but just torpor, as the friggin’ absolute basis of reality!

 

Ecstatic conductivity is defined as a pleasurable flow of prana through the opened sushumna. AYP really says this is HALF of enlightenment? It’s surely just a foundational stage of pranic development, and (ironically!) scenery. AYP does say to its credit that ecstatic conductivity alone leads nowhere, but I still think it makes much too big a deal of it.

 

 

Pseudo-samyama

 

Tibetan Ice goes into this here.

 

 

AYP Tantra

 

To Yogani, Tantra is just sexual practices.

 

But hey, at least he acknowledges the need to retain veerya/jing and transmute it, although once again the theory behind this is very flaky in AYP. Semen actually travelling up into the brain? Obviously not! The seminal fluid is just a physical counterpart of veerya, not the veerya itself.

 

Many yogis these days don't mention this AT ALL, so big kudos to Yogani there.

 

 

Conclusion

 

Is AYP all bad? No. I wasn’t harmed personally during the nearly 2 years I practiced it. As I say, it did get me started and through AYP I was able to develop beyond the level where it still helps you. There are some nuggets of good stuff mixed in there!

 

Read the AYP lessons as food for thought and to exercise your skepticism muscles if you like, but don't do their practices. AYP is an experiment and its practitioners are the guinea pigs...

You said alot there and to be honest I did not read through it all but I will tell you that this practice is very beneficial. You are looking for something else, yet you are already there. Once you find the original nature, you must accept it and steep. I don't know about AYP I do know some basic Yoga however, I can say that all these arts yield the same thing, if you achieve the same goal. I do not consider myself a Taoist, even though I have been gifted with many Taoist arts, I am grateful but I also know that many other systems from many different culturres yield the same thing. We are human beings and though there are many different techniques there is also the limitation of our beings, no matter how many different ways you augment it, eventually it simply becomes minor variations of the same thing. I have always sought universal principle, most get stuck in their way and become trapped by it's ideals, this is unfortunate much wisdom is lost by becoming one sided. Best of Luck to you in your training.

Edited April 19, 2013 by SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Hi. I 100% agree that all valid practices lead to the same goal - as someone who uses methods from Buddhism, Daoism and Yoga; and tries to learn from every tradition. However, the question is 'are ALL techniques valid'? To take an extreme example, clearly if our path consists of wearing a hat made of cheese we will only end up with cheesy hair.

 

 

I think it's sensible to say that a valid path will: foster virtue, develop the mental stability and vividness required for jhana (shamatha), build insight, and cultivate chi without causing kundalini syndrome. Any path that doesn't include all of these is incomplete at best. Let's look at AYP from this angle briefly.

 

 

*Virtue: AYP does seem to encourage virtue, can't really knock it there.

 

*Shamatha: if you please read the posts made by myself and Tibetan Ice on this thread, you will see detailed arguments and evidence stating that AYP meditation is actually a bit of a disaster in this regard, cultivating an unhealthy mental fuzziness. Also read http://thetaobums.com/topic/21469-patanjalis-sutras-and-samyama-questions/

 

*Insight: AYP is fair in this regard, though nowhere near, say, Zen. It points towards realisation of pure consciousness, mistaking consciousness for the Self. But that's still a high stage, and AYP'ers have described realisations of no-self.

 

*Chi without kundalini syndrome: this is another area AYP is shocking, which I explain in detail in my previous posts, and TI and others discuss here - http://thetaobums.com/topic/23437-does-ayp-give-bad-kundalini-advice/

Edited April 19, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I've edited the first post to include all the key points, for people who are interested but don't want to trawl through 7 pages.

[Hypnagog]

"...when the light circulates, the energies of the whole body appear before its throne, as, when a holy king has established the capital and has laid down the fundamental rules of order, all the states approach with tribute; or as, when the master is quiet and calm, men-servants and maids obey his orders of their own accord, and each does his work.

Therefore you have only to make the light circulate: that is the deepest and most wonderful secret. The light is easy to move, but difficult to fix. If it is made to circulate long enough, then it crystallizes itself; that is the natural spirit-body. This crystallized spirit is formed beyond the nine heavens. It is the condition of which it is said in the Book of the Seal of the Heart: "Silently thou fliest upward in the morning".

-Secret of the Golden Flower, T’ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih

The most fundamental "meditation" needed is the circulation of light. It is simple. Focus on the "skyline" heavenly yang descending into your crown chakra. Focus on the "earthline" divine yin entering through your perineum. Focus on this two poles and allow them to flow through your body while maintaing an awarness of both flows of movement. We call this a "light bath".
Further detail: The Skyline travels down the "ren mai" governer vessel (down the anterior midline of the body)
The earthline travels up the "du mai" conception vessel. (up the spinal cord, up the posterior midline)

Wee