Western Symbolism thread

[Eskrimador]

Everybody worship that dollar symbol.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Eskrimador

[Aetherous]

Personally I'd like to avoid the use of 'conspiracy theory' as it just shuts down what might be a valid interpretation or prevents otherwise smart people from doing their own research and discussing for fear of being labelled crazy.

 

Agreed. I believe in a lot of what others consider conspiracy theories. So I only use the term when it's not a valid interpretation.

 

For instance, the David Icke reptilian agenda? Conspiracy theory.

The Bilderberg Group being shady as ffff? Truth.

[eye_of_the_storm]

My understanding is that the image of Lucifer being the evil horned devil has been purposefully used to demonize the old Pagan horned Gods like Pan, the image used for both is pretty much exactly the same , what is often not realised is that the Pagan gods are the Gods or archetypal symbols of the lower Chakras where your power and root reside, so the Church by demonizing that symbol they effectively cut people off from their own internal power and make them feel afraid of it. While people are cut off from their root they remain scared and need to be looked after by those who are perceived as holding the power, like a sheep with their shepherd.

 

Which is why one of the first things Crowley did as a young man was to try to recreate the cult of Pan the ancient fertility God to reconnect with and harmonize his lower chakras, of course people were afraid of that because they have been indoctrinated to be afraid of the horned Lucifer; but who is the real demon in all this, the Pagan Gods are part of our collective psyche, so those who try to reconnect and harmonise that part of us and restore our power are trying to do a great healing and not perform some sort of evil. The image of Lucifer might be the most powerful symbol which needs reclaiming for us to regain our balance and strength, which is why you often hear about politicians and powerful people being involved in various "satanic" groups, they are freeing their own internal power while everyone else remains afraid of it.

 

I would make a distinction between European "paganism" and Middle Eastern mythos

 

Some may refer to Hinduism as pagan... this isn't entirely true though.

 

Actions speak louder than words.

[eye_of_the_storm]

This is an incomplete form of the quote that is often used to demonize Crowley and has lead you to an incorrect conclusion about its meaning as well. The full quote is:

 

Do as thou will shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will.

 

The law of Thelema indicates that each human should follow their true will and purpose in the world. That no other person should interfere with their will and that they should interfere with the will of no other so long as the expression of will does not lead to the harm of another. The Greek word Thelema (Will) is numerically equivalent to Agape (Love) when using the Greek system of isopsephy. Both words calculate to 93, which is of great significance to Thelemites and is the reason you will often see references to 93 such as 93/93 (Love under Will) in communications by them. Crowley was incredibly socially progressive, and as such was threatening to the establishment. He was also sarcastic and didn't care a whit what anyone else thought of him, so when he was called the Beast he smiled and agreed and moved on. This attitude on his part did nothing to clear up occult matters for the general public, but I think he was pretty aware that most of the general public would not be willing or capable to do the work involved in the occult to begin with.

 

love is the law? love under will?

 

These things mean nothing.

 

Love of what?

 

Will of what?

 

Love is truly thrown around too much... with little context.

 

One could have a love of evil for example.

 

You do go further to define Will

 

How does a person ascertain true will and true purpose?

 

All these things can be interpreted any which way a person desires.

 

When things need constant defining I find it suspect.

 

The Thelema definition does later say to do no harm to others.

 

Many other questionable things however throughout his works. I myself would not joke about such serious matters.

 

+ to hide behind...oh it was only a joke, I find to be poor character.

 

Personally I would have been more clear from the very beginning.

 

do not harm others, do as you will.

 

rather than say "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law"? hahaha hmmm

[eye_of_the_storm]

I suppose this is taken out of context also?

 

From “Magick in Theory and Practice” by Aleister Crowley

 

The animal should therefore be killed within the Circle, or the Triangle, as the case may be, so that its energy cannot escape. An animal should be selected whose nature accords with that of the ceremony — thus, by sacrificing a female lamb one would not obtain any appreciate quantity of the fierce energy useful to a Magician who was invoking Mars. In such a case a ram would be more suitable. And this ram should be virgin — the whole potential of its original total energy should not have been diminished in any way. For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim. For evocations it would be more convenient to place the blood of the victim in the Triangle — the idea being that the spirit might obtain from the blood this subtle but physical substance which was the quintessence of its life in such a manner as to enable it to take on a visible and tangible shape.

 

Those magicians who object to the use of blood have endeavored to replace it with incense. For such a purpose the incense of Abramelin may be burnt in large quantities. Dittany of Crete is also a valuable medium. Both these incenses are very catholic in their nature, and suitable for almost any materialization. But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is the best.

[eye_of_the_storm]

On 12 February 2001 Henry Bibby (alias Edward Crowley) was sentenced to life imprisonment at the Old Bailey for carrying out a Crowleyite ritual of child sacrifice on an innocent twelve-year-old victim. He was obsessed with the Satanist and changed his name to “Edward Crowley” in 1998. He had stabbed the boy, Diego Pineiro-Villar, over thirty times in Covent Garden, London, on 8 May 2000. Police found a holdall that Bibby had kept with him. It contained a small number of legal documents about his change of name, and a chilling sketch that police believe was drawn a few weeks before the attack. Entitled Delendus Est Pineiro, which roughly translates as “destroy Pineiro,” the pencil diagram makes references to child sacrifice, black magic and Greek mythology. The symbols relate to quotations from Crowley’s works.

 

http://www.gothicpress.freeserve.co.uk/Aleister%20Crowley.htm

[eye_of_the_storm]

“I bind my blood in Satan,

All that lieth betwixt my hands

To thee, the Beast, and thy control,

I pledge me; body, mind and soul.”

 

~ Aleister Crowley (Satanic Extracts)*

 

“I swear to work my Work abhorred,

Careless of all but one reward,

The pleasure of the Devil our Lord.”

 

~ Aleister Crowley (Satanic Extracts)*

 

*(Black Lodge Publishing, 1991)

 

I suppose these are out of context too?

Edited December 2, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Eskrimador]

This shit best left alone.

[Aetherous]

Please make another thread for Crowley discussion, or other stuff like black magick...this is supposed to be about symbolism in the West.

[eye_of_the_storm]

And I suppose that a person who is obsessed with violent video games and goes on a killing spree is proof that video games are evil too? This is beyond a stretch in logic. You have to exercise some common sense when approaching these matters, and you have to be able to take a rational approach to them when examining them, rather than getting swept up in emotional response to them. What this man did was never advocated by Crowley in any of his works that I am familiar with. There is a reason that Aleister Crowley never spent a day of his life in prison. It's not because he went around encouraging people to murder each other.

 

Yes (extremely) violent video games are evil.

 

An obsession with such things I would also find questionable.

 

And the creators of such works highly questionable

 

haha

 

Emotional response? haha

 

To human sacrifice? really?

 

A lot of double speak regarding this fellow.

 

I can't think of an instance where a follower of Buddhism went on a killing spree inspired by the works of the Buddha.

 

The religions of Abraham + Satanism I don't believe are so opposed as believed haha

 

As you outlined quite nicely.

 

So my view are not christian centric

 

There is some interesting Babylonian texts / history I was reading sometime ago

 

Basically the Devil + Saviour were manifestations of one specific group.

 

The ruling priestly cast had been overthrown and disposed of by the people... the people now self governing and free.

 

This "elite" priestly cast over time devised another way to bring the people back under their control / devotion.

 

Problem - Reaction - Solution

 

As Orwell more of less said people will enjoy their servitude? / it is much easier to create a program where people are their own captors rather than have outright tyranny.

 

I think the event had been material / orchestrated battle / they funded both the enemy and ally

 

This adversary, of their creation laid waste to the lands / people that had disposed of them

 

Until such time that the people had nothing left/ begging for a Saviour/ Hero to save them...

 

Magically a Savior/ Hero figure appears just at the right time and conquers the great adversary

 

The deeds of the hero spread throughout the land and people begin to praise / worship this hero and a cult following begins with the "priestly" leading the sheep.

 

more of less some pretty extreme social engineering.

 

Which side are you on?

 

haha oh wait their is no difference...opps.

 

Of course copy pasted from the internet...where else would..?

 

Would you like me to quote the entire works of Crowley? so that is can read in context?

 

The way he writes... it is rather obvious what he is promoting I think.

 

Anyhow

 

“There are no “standards of Right”. Ethics is balderdash. Each Star must go on its own orbit. To hell with “moral principle”; there is no such thing”

 

-Crowley, Aleister. The Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL, II,28.

 

^ out of context again?

 

hahaha

 

Funny too considering Taoism + Buddhism are all about Virtue and Ethics

Edited December 3, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

This is a discussion on western symbolism

 

We are trying to ascertain the meaning of this pyramid and eye and the intention of the people who use this symbol

[Birch]

Could the Western symbols be said to be mostly of Egyptian origin? Where did those come from?

[eye_of_the_storm]

muahaha...

[eye_of_the_storm]

[Birch]

Well I guess Greek symbolism also counts as Western.

[Aetherous]

Probably, if we draw a line halfway through India, we've got the separation between East and West.

 

Apech said once, if I remember correctly, that the Egyptians possibly discovered their symbols through altered states of consciousness.

[Seth Ananda]

Pyramid.

 

Four sides = four elements.

 

Single point = spirit

 

Four sides radiating from and beneath single point = Perfection.

 

Spirit in its correct position as source and master of the four elements all in harmony with each other.

[Seth Ananda]

WWROA can you leave your conspiracy BS and your stupid stupid theories out of this subforum.

 

This is the Hermetic and Occult subforum.

 

It is not the Conspiracy BS subforum.

 

It is for TTB Occultists and Hermeticists to discuss these subjects without their threads being shat on by idiotic ramblings and assertions from ignorant know nothings who read some david icke or some other crack pot.

[theurgy]

Hear Hear! I second the rather witty and erudite Bum from Melbourne in his motion to keep the Occult and Hermetic sub-forum conspiracy BS-free. While I recognize WWROA's right to explore the world of reptilians, aliens, alien-ghosts, ghost-dogs and alien-ghost-dogs that shoot laser beams out of their mouth with full HAARP synchronization, this is simply not the place to discuss these and other sundry masturbatory fantasies.

 

Mark my words, these theories always lure you in with promises of alien love and end up convincing you that the jews are behind everything. You will then purchase a very expensive telescope with which to see the tree-house habitations on Venus where the evil and greedy jews are building an obsidian altar to the ancient Dinosaur Gods to whom various clues have been left to us through the Flintstones cartoon program and then...

[Birch]

I still think ridiculing people with the 'conspiracy theorist' term is off-colour AND I do appreciate a thread that sticks to the point. Should be possible to do both, perhaps not all at the TTBs however.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I'll leave you all too it then

[Aetherous]

Note - I did start this thread with the intention (although I didn't state it specifically) that we could be able to discuss symbols seen in popular culture, associated with government buildings, etc. Their current use in all places (of the Western world primarily), their use in other contexts like spiritual schools, and the possible links in between. All is meaningful in one way or another.

 

It's interesting to me, for instance, how much the music industry uses various symbols in their artwork (music videos, live shows, linear notes, posters and ads, etc). It's a form of expression and relating to various things (whether or not the artist actually does, for instance in the case of Jay-Z and "the Illuminati" with his hand sign).

 

On the other hand, something the spiritual traditions have always said is that power without true wisdom (actions coming from a place of love) is harmful for all involved. Maybe these symbols that people see as powerful aren't so good, when there's no real spiritual cultivation happening in the public. Perhaps the power elicited is used to stimulate base emotions.

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by turtle shell

[Apech]

Probably, if we draw a line halfway through India, we've got the separation between East and West.

 

Apech said once, if I remember correctly, that the Egyptians possibly discovered their symbols through altered states of consciousness.

 

Human figures with animal heads and serpents are the things of shamanic ecstatic vision (see Graham Hancock on Ayahuasca etc.).

 

Most Western symbology owes its origins to Egypt and Sumeria.

[Birch]

Note - I did start this thread with the intention (although I didn't state it specifically) that we could be able to discuss symbols seen in popular culture, associated with government buildings, etc. Their current use in all places (of the Western world primarily), their use in other contexts like spiritual schools, and the possible links in between. All is meaningful in one way or another.

 

It's interesting to me, for instance, how much the music industry uses various symbols in their artwork (music videos, live shows, linear notes, posters and ads, etc). It's a form of expression and relating to various things (whether or not the artist actually does, for instance in the case of Jay-Z and "the Illuminati" with his hand sign).

 

On the other hand, something the spiritual traditions have always said is that power without true wisdom (actions coming from a place of love) is harmful for all involved. Maybe these symbols that people see as powerful aren't so good, when there's no real spiritual cultivation happening in the public. Perhaps the power elicited is used to stimulate base emotions.

 

 

That was an interesting post Turtle and Apech. I'm good with shamanic visions as long as they're not being thrown at me by TBTB:-) In other words, I'd rather people had their own shamanic visions and that the latter were encouraged (currently not the case, as far as I know) through self-discovery.

As for her very big tattoo of Maat on her chest. Which she said was Isis, but apparently not. Well that's something else.

 

Apech, anything from Hancock you think is a must see/read?

[Birch]

Further to Turtle's post on symbolism in Western settings. Recall Seth in the Reiki thread said:

 

"Well advertising is a billion dollar industry for a reason. Sigils are tied to an Intent. The Cross is a sacred symbol from many cultures, representing the wholeness of life, but in a christian context well it represents protection/blessings from Jesus, God or church... Also you are probably not 'inviting' it as a child so it is not the same as a reiki attunement where you are consciously opening yourself up to recieve the symbols and energy. But still just being near them affects you. We are interrelated with our environment."

 

And on the website I posted above:

 

"

The being comprehends symbols at different levels, from his human condition to the metaphysical and properly supra-human order. Indeed, the symbol finds its source beyond the human world, within the divine Principle or Unity at the origin of the manifested world diversity. Any being or thing is related to the Unity, from which it constitutes a reflection.

Symbolism does not express, it suggests a correspondence between Unity and diversity, the non-manifested and the manifested, the invisible and the visible, night and day, darkness and light as the lotus coming out from depths to surface waters."

What I understand of this, is that a symbol is an imposition upon something. Much like we might insist that something fall under a specific model or concept - even if experience (or additional observation) suggests otherwise. Even if our wishes are otherwise.

if you ask the people who did the JayZ choreography what their intent was for throwing in a 3rd chakra mudra, I wonder if they would be able to say.