Considering?

[Vmarco]

Can Considering be a path to FSC (Full Spectrum Consciousness)?

 

Gurdjieff said, "...consider externally always, internally never." This is obviously concerning Relative Considering; although when fully understood, is likely to uncover Absolute Considering. “Truth lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it.” Goethe

 

To consider externally means to consider from the point of view of that which is perceived to be external. Whereas internal considering is mostly about ego. Gurdjieff had a term he called the Chief Feature; a persons largest barrier obscuring their spiritualized/actualized self. He said the Chief Feature is usually what one likes best about oneself. He also purportedly said that the Chief Feature for most people is Internal Considering.

 

External Considering would seek to understand things before judging it. Gurdjieff said, "External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself. "

 

Few people fully Consider Externally or empathize with others in a unconditional, non-humanist way,...that is, not filtered through the 6 senses. Absolute Considering necessitates an understanding of what Buddhism calls Dependent Origination,...that everything is dependent on everything else.

 

Consider what Peace on Earth would look like. Would it be a society of bearing, believing, hoping and enduring,...as in the Great Love Chapter of Christendom, Corinthians 13; for example, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7? Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is quite acceptable to the faith-based groupthink, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs.

 

Would a World at Peace have signs that read "Beware of Dogs," the ownership of vicious breeds for protection, or people obsessed with assault guns? In the US alone, nearly 5 million people report being attacked by dogs every year, and 1,000 people go to emergency rooms every day as a result of a dog attack. In North America, thousands are shot every year with assault weapons, precipitaing more police, fear, subconscious aggression towards others, and a non-peaceful culture.

 

Would an Externally Considerate person own a vicious breed? The State of Maryland recently declared pit bulls and pit bull cross-breeds as "inherently dangerous." Interestingly, some data suggests that the State of Hawaii has the largest pit bull and vicious breed population per capita. Paradise takes "Kill Haole Day" quite seriously, as those familiar with Hawaiian News know that there is actually very little true aloha in the islands.

 

In the 8th Century, Shantideva said, "All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

 

Obviously, Shantideva was aware of External Considering. What would Lao-tzu say about "External Considering always, Internal Considering never?"

 

Lao-tzu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things...looking at herself or another, she sees the samething....Caring for them, she knows that she cares for herself. Giving to them, she knows she gives to herself. At peace with them, she is always at peace with herself."

 

Did Lao-tzu teach external Considering?

 

Lao-tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao....keep your mind free of divisions and distinctions."

 

Is that the same as "rid oneself of Internal Considering"?

 

Lao-tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

Would an authentic Taoist own a vicious breed canine,...a room of assault weapons,...adding to the suffering, fear, aggression, terrorism in the World?

[eye_of_the_storm]

Yes

 

An authentic Taoist could potentially have weapons + dogs

Edited December 5, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[thelerner]

Would an authentic Taoist own a vicious breed canine,...a room of assault weapons,...adding to the suffering, fear, aggression, terrorism in the World?

Welcome back but still on the dog dogma? We had over 30 pages of discussion on it, 2 or 3 different topics that you started. You wrote dozens of posts about your problem with them. It was done to death. You can't still be obsessing on them. Edited December 5, 2012 by thelerner

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Can Considering be a path to FSC (Full Spectrum Consciousness)?

 

Gurdjieff said, "...consider externally always, internally never." This is obviously concerning Relative Considering; although when fully understood, is likely to uncover Absolute Considering. “Truth lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it.” Goethe

 

To consider externally means to consider from the point of view of that which is perceived to be external. Whereas internal considering is mostly about ego. Gurdjieff had a term he called the Chief Feature; a persons largest barrier obscuring their spiritualized/actualized self. He said the Chief Feature is usually what one likes best about oneself. He also purportedly said that the Chief Feature for most people is Internal Considering.

 

External Considering would seek to understand things before judging it. Gurdjieff said, "External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself. "

This is very good, thoughts worth considering; considerations worth upholding.

 

Few people fully Consider Externally or empathize with others in a unconditional, non-humanist way,...that is, not filtered through the 6 senses. Absolute Considering necessitates an understanding of what Buddhism calls Dependent Origination,...that everything is dependent on everything else.

And this thought, I love the idea! Glad I got to read it tonight, thank you!

 

Consider what Peace on Earth would look like. Would it be a society of bearing, believing, hoping and enduring,...as in the Great Love Chapter of Christendom, Corinthians 13; for example, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things", 1 Cor 13:7? Although this form of love, that is, bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is quite acceptable to the faith-based groupthink, it isn't Unconditional Love, but the submission, devotion, expectation and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs.

... aaaand yer good, there's no reason to bring up vicious breeds of dog any more than there is to mention diabetes at this point...

 

In the 8th Century, Shantideva said, "All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

"Wishing"? Nay. Might not be the right word, acting in the best interest... Sure, but if wishes were riches, then beggars would rule the world.

 

Obviously, Shantideva was aware of External Considering. What would Lao-tzu say about "External Considering always, Internal Considering never?"

 

Lao-tzu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things...looking at herself or another, she sees the samething....Caring for them, she knows that she cares for herself. Giving to them, she knows she gives to herself. At peace with them, she is always at peace with herself."

 

Did Lao-tzu teach external Considering?

Does it matter what the name of a teaching is, or who the teacher was, if the lesson is inherently the same, the results, affects and/or effects are essentially the same, or too similar to concern distinctions?

 

Lao-tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao....keep your mind free of divisions and distinctions."

 

Is that the same as "rid oneself of Internal Considering"?

 

Lao-tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

Would an authentic Taoist own a vicious breed canine,...a room of assault weapons,...adding to the suffering, fear, aggression, terrorism in the World?

I think this is all a very important lesson, something (more) people would benefit from participating in. But the dog thing, it's irrelevant. you might as well lump your phobia of 'vicious breeds of dog' in with WMDs, a man made pandemic, and zombies. Edited December 5, 2012 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[Protector]

VMARCO IS BACK *swoon* eh, but it's still the same stuff

[eye_of_the_storm]

I think a show of force is necessary in some regards.

 

Many peaceful people have be killed by others.

 

I think meditation + MA is balance.

 

Many peaceful people know deadly arts but never use them

 

If India hadn't been as strong militarily perhaps there would have been no Buddhism no Brahmanism no Sikhism no Yoga no Zen etc?

 

The earth has a spectrum of consciousness, from the most base to enlightened

 

One needs to make allowances for that?

Edited December 6, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Vmarco]

But the dog thing, it's irrelevant. you might as well lump your phobia of 'vicious breeds of dog' in with WMDs, a man made pandemic, and zombies.

 

Imagine,...World Peace. Can you imagine such a world full of vicious dog breeds owned by fearful people needing protection? Your ad hominem stressing an presumed "phobia" simply shows an inability to address the argument,...that vicious breeds in a peaceful world is an oxymoron.

 

Much of peoples problem with discussion vicious breeds lies in the ignorance of vicious breed owners that there lovable pit bull, etc., would ever harm anyone,...or could ever terrorize the person walking down the street. Until you realize the relevance between vicious dog breeds and an impeccable practioner of Taoism, the likelihood of waking up is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

Consider this,..."The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." Shantideva

 

In other words, Lao Tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

[Andrei]

Hi Vmarco,

 

I as a former dog owner (Doberman) i always contemplated the idea: what would I do if I would be attacked by a vicious dog?

So I reached to the conclusion: we humans don't have claws and fangs but we can carry knives, swords, guns, all sorts of weapons.

A sayoc kerambit would be ideal for such a situation, but you must learn to use it and must be willing to use it, and I believe carring and training in such a weapon will solve your problem.

 

 

And please don't tell me this world is a world of peace, you know Gurdjieff also said that there is a law in this Universe which is called Iraniranumange which essentially is reciprocal killing and feeding each other beings in the Universe.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Well, except for the barking at the dogs the root concept of the thread is an excellent one, I think.

 

We'll see if y'all want to talk about dogs or the firstly established concept.

[Apech]

Well, except for the barking at the dogs the root concept of the thread is an excellent one, I think.

 

We'll see if y'all want to talk about dogs or the firstly established concept.

 

Are we barking up the wrong tree?

[Marblehead]

Are we barking up the wrong tree?

Hehehe. Perhaps. Time will tell. Maybe there really isn't a cat up that tree.

[Jetsun]

I'd be careful about this dangerous dog obsession Vmarco, if your mind doesn't become less fixated on it you will probably be reborn as pitbul if you were to die any time soon.

[Apech]

A world at peace would not be this world ... which is clearly not at peace. In fact I think you could characterise this world as a sort a tussle between peace and strife (you will find a Greek philosopher who did just this ... can't remember which one). Dangerous dogs are a part of this world ... and characterise it as much as anything else. Perhaps if we saw the word differently then we would see the dogs differently. Perhaps we make them dangerous with our intent.

[zanshin]

"The opposite of internal considering and what is in part a means of fighting against it is external considering. External considering is based upon an entirely different relationship towards people than internal considering. It is adaptation towards people, to their understanding, to their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and for himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself." - Gurdjieff

 

Dog training actually seems like a good simple example. External considering via Gurdjieff not so much unconditional love and being a servant to others, but a way to ultimately get what you want too. Sort of like positive reinforcement in dogs training. Dogs are simple; we know they like treats, praise, petting and playtime. So the dog trainer can use these things to shape desired behaviors, while ignoring or calmly redirecting undesired behaviors. The dog learns that things that make the owner happy will make the dog happy too. This method helps dogs be happy and peaceful and life becomes easy for both the dog and dog owner. Some trainers use negative reinforcement which would be things like yelling, hitting, confining or making aggressive absolutist statements toward the dog. Perhaps people do have inherently vicious tendencies and we really shouldn't keep ourselves as we may be inherently dangerous to dogs and most other life, since we frequently use these methods. The negative methods make for unhappy dogs with vicious tendencies and life is not easy for anyone.

[Marblehead]

All prejudices are based on generalizations. Dog does not equal evil. Dog equals dog. Evil equals evil. A dog is a real thing (Tao manifested.) Evil is a concept in the mind of man. Varies between men (and women).

[Apech]

All prejudices are based on generalizations. Dog does not equal evil. Dog equals dog. Evil equals evil. A dog is a real thing (Tao manifested.) Evil is a concept in the mind of man. Varies between men (and women).

 

My dog's got no nose.

How does it smell?

Awful.

[Marblehead]

My dog's got no nose.

How does it smell?

Awful.

Hehehe. Okay, I'll buy that.