Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[konchog uma]

right alwayson. Although they recommend the phone introduction and explanation of the transmission as a precursor, thats free too.

 

For info, write to any of the contacts of Norbu Rinpoche's lings and gars around the world.. the will tell you the time (next one is Feb 24th 2013, time not set yet) and everything

 

but if you dont feel like the formality of the explanation, that live webcast is open during the time of transmission.. anyone can log on and connect with ChNNR

[konchog uma]

Malcolm originally recommended it to me as part of a dharmawheel discussion we had.

 

 

yeah he studied under ChNNR for 20 years

[Jetsun]

Tsoknyi Rinpoche is my favorite Dzogchen teacher, he is the holder of various lineages and I really like his style and admire his spirit. He gives teachings in the UK and US every year. From his experience of teaching he says that many westerners need to deal with misplaced lung in their body before they do excessive Dzogchen practice otherwise it can just space you out.

[konchog uma]

Tsoknyi Rinpoche is my favorite Dzogchen teacher, he is the holder of various lineages and I really like his style and admire his spirit. He gives teachings in the UK and US every year. From his experience of teaching he says that many westerners need to deal with misplaced lung in their body before they do excessive Dzogchen practice otherwise it can just space you out.

 

Interesting jetsun. Milarepa was introduced to mahamudra and dzogchen both, and couldn't practice them because he had too many karmic blockages. His mind wouldn't settle so he couldn't rest in the natural state. So Marpa taught him inner fire (tummo) and the inner yogas, but it was mostly tummo which cleared him out so he could practice. Tummo is a lineage practice, and to really learn it, one will need to take refuge vows, bodhisattva vows, complete their ngondro, take tantric vows, and then be accepted by their teacher (assuming they have one that can teach the inner yogas) as a student and gain entry to the practice. All that takes years just to get to the door to be able to suplicate the lama for teachings. So a lot of people like to talk about tummo and read books on inner yogas (and i'm one of them so not knocking it, just saying) but not many people really get training in the practice. However, there have been many parallels drawn between kundalini and its effects as it cleanses ones system of blockages and impurities, and the energies utilized in tummo. I quote from the wikipedia page on tummo:

 

Kundalini and tummo

 

Kundalini is etymologically linked to candalī, the Sanskrit term for tummo, or inner fire. The two practices are also related. Miranda Shaw clarifies:

Kuṇḍalinī-yoga

offered a range of techniques to harness the powerful psycho-physical energy coursing through the body... Most people simply allow the energy to churn in a cauldron of chaotic thoughts and emotions or dissipate the energy in a superficial pursuit of pleasure, but a yogi or yogini consciously accumulates and then directs it for specified purposes. This energy generates warmth as it accumulates and becomes an inner fire or inner heat (

candālī

) that [potentially] burns away the dross of ignorance and ego-clinging.

^[4]

Kundalini, therefore, is the energy that when accumulated and directed can become tummo. The two are essentially similar in nature but applied in somewhat different ways in the Hindu Kundalini Yoga practice and the Vajrayana Buddhist tummo practices, such as the Six Yogas of Naropa.

Numerous non-buddhist tantras of the Shakta and Shaiva traditions (generally termed Hindu by westerners) speak of Kundalini, which is generally described as a coiled energy at the base of the spine,^[5][6][7] at the first chakra. The image of celestial partnership is common within the Shiva-Shakti treatment of Kundalini union. As the serpent energy, or "shakti", ascends to the Crown chakra, Shiva, the cosmic consciousness permeates the body-mind of the sadhaka. It is important to remember that the language of directionality encoded within this process is only metaphorical and that the 'higher' awareness states are typically nonlocal, unbounded and uncontained.

Whereas tummo is generally described within the context of various Buddhist tantric systems, particularly the 'Mother tantras' (Wylie: ma rgyud), and most widely taught within the Kagyu lineages, although a popular manual was written by Tsongkhapa, founder of the strictly monastic Gelug sect. The context for the practice is rooted in the Mahayana precepts of universal compassion and the experience of the transcendental wisdom of Sunyata (Emptiness). The Buddhist tantric systems present several different models of the chakras, and for tummo the 'energetic winds' (prana, rlung) are being accumulated at the navel chakra, four fingers below the navel.^[2][8] In Tibetan Buddhism the primary purpose of tummo is to gain control over subtle body processes as a foundation for very advanced mystical practices analogous to Completion stages of 'highest yoga tantra' (Anuttarayoga Tantra). Such refined internalized yogas are practices to support entry into the highest contemplative systems, for example the Dzogchen or Mahamudra systems.^[9]

 

end quote

 

so my point is that there is more than one way to cleanse ones obstructions and karmic blockages and make way for dzogchen practice. But it does seem that at the least, a completely firm foundation in meditation is needed to rest in rigpa. Beyond that, it seems necessary to have it pointed out by a teacher who rests there already before one works with it. As someone recently said to me, the natural state exists everywhere at all times so one can break through to it while sitting on the toilet, it can happen any time. But breaking through to it, and recognizing that that is what has happened, without the help of a lineage teacher or lama, seems like a very long shot. How many people meditate their whole life but never awaken their kundalini, or penetrate the primordial state? It seems like lots.

 

I think that this retreat (introduction to dzogchen) is good to gain familiarity, and is full of wonderful teachings. But to really practice dzogchen takes years to build the foundation, any way you get there, and then as taught by most masters, it takes the grace of the lama to point out the mind. So check out that shangshung link on feb 24th with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, i already have the date set aside on my calendar so i don't make other plans

[RongzomFan]

Out of all the Buddhist Wikipedia pages, that page is among the worst.

 

Where is the reference for:

 

"Kundalini is etymologically linked to candalī.

 

 

Kundalini and tummo are the same thing, but not because the word kundalini is etymologically linked to candali, because it isn't.

 

The Dzogchen pages are alright though.

Edited December 12, 2012 by alwayson

[Jetsun]

so my point is that there is more than one way to cleanse ones obstructions and karmic blockages and make way for dzogchen practice. But it does seem that at the least, a completely firm foundation in meditation is needed to rest in rigpa. Beyond that, it seems necessary to have it pointed out by a teacher who rests there already before one works with it. As someone recently said to me, the natural state exists everywhere at all times so one can break through to it while sitting on the toilet, it can happen any time. But breaking through to it, and recognizing that that is what has happened, without the help of a lineage teacher or lama, seems like a very long shot. How many people meditate their whole life but never awaken their kundalini, or penetrate the primordial state? It seems like lots.

 

I think that this retreat (introduction to dzogchen) is good to gain familiarity, and is full of wonderful teachings. But to really practice dzogchen takes years to build the foundation, any way you get there, and then as taught by most masters, it takes the grace of the lama to point out the mind. So check out that shangshung link on feb 24th with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, i already have the date set aside on my calendar so i don't make other plans

 

Yeah I agree with what you are saying, but but then on the other hand resting in the natural state I imagine would clear many of the blockages faster than most other means; Tsoknyi Rinpoche says that many Buddhist teachers need to have more guts and point out the natural state far more quickly to their students without such long preparation, but many people need a clearing of their subtle body first and to get lung back into it's proper place below the navel.

 

I never really got a strong pull towards Norbu though for some reason, when I watched that film about his him and his son I felt a great sadness more than anything else, whereas with some other Lama's I sense a greater freedom. Maybe that is just me though, it is wonderful that he is making these teachings so accessible and available to anyone .

Edited December 12, 2012 by Jetsun

[konchog uma]

Yeah I agree with what you are saying, but but then on the other hand resting in the natural state I imagine would clear many of the blockages faster than most other means;

 

When i practice mahamudra or dzogchen, the closer i get to the natural state and the more of the tension of everyday mind i let go of, the more my energy just jumps up and shakes off blockages, sometimes quite spontaneously. So i personally think there is something to what you are saying, but 2 things: 1, that just comes from my own experience and isnt anything i have seen mentioned anywhere else so who knows... could be anything... and 2, my kundalini is alive and kicking so it is always looking for blockages to shake through, i think that resting in the natural state just enables it. I am not sure what would happen if my kundalini were dormant. ???

 

I never really got a strong pull towards Norbu though for some reason, when I watched that film about his him and his son I felt a great sadness more than anything else, whereas with some other Lama's I sense a greater freedom. Maybe that is just me though, it is wonderful that he is making these teachings so accessible and available to anyone .

 

i keep meaning to watch that film. Interesting jetsun, but i can't speak to it cause ive never seen the film. I feel a strong pull towards Norbu Rinpoche (just recently joined Dzogchen Community) and think the accessibility is wonderful too. I have had powerful experiences surrounding his writings, and am convinced that he is an awakened master.

 

I've been missing his chod retreat because i am immersed in this Alan Wallace retreat right now, but as a member i have the replay option for a couple months.

 

Its important to feel a personal connection to a teacher tho, i'm not trying to convince you that ChNNR is great, maybe for you he isn't! I want to look into Choknyi Rinpoche... does he write? Do you recommend anything to start checking him out?

[konchog uma]

@ alwayson: thanks for your point of view. My apologies to quote a crap page. You should post something on wikipedia instead of on taobums

[konchog uma]

track 17! which is really splendid btw

[Jetsun]

i keep meaning to watch that film. Interesting jetsun, but i can't speak to it cause ive never seen the film. I feel a strong pull towards Norbu Rinpoche (just recently joined Dzogchen Community) and think the accessibility is wonderful too. I have had powerful experiences surrounding his writings, and am convinced that he is an awakened master.

 

I've been missing his chod retreat because i am immersed in this Alan Wallace retreat right now, but as a member i have the replay option for a couple months.

 

Its important to feel a personal connection to a teacher tho, i'm not trying to convince you that ChNNR is great, maybe for you he isn't! I want to look into Choknyi Rinpoche... does he write? Do you recommend anything to start checking him out?

 

I get the impression from the film that Norbu was damaged by his monastic upbringing and as a result has somewhat stunted emotional relationships with many of his family, some say it is some sort of spiritual or cultural thing and isn't important and nobody is perfect, but personally I would have hoped his practice would have healed many of those wounds. I also got the impression that he only really started to take his practice that seriously when he became ill and thought he might die. There were a few scenes with the Dalai Lama and the DL seemed full of energy and delight while Norbu seemed kind of depressed to me. Yet that is all my subjective take on a short film, I have not attended any of his teachings so I may change my mind if I did.

 

Tsoknyi Rinpoche has some good articles on his website http://www.tsoknyiri...art-one-of-two/ and you can get a good 30 page talk of his here www.buddhistmala.com/store/Lung.doc for free from one of his retreats

 

He has written a few good books, he has a new one out called 'Open Heart Open Mind' which is really a beginners mass appeal book and seems very simplistic but I think it is excellent http://www.scribd.co...of-Essence-Love , and he has a few others which are more focused on Dzogchen like 'Care Free Dignity'

Edited December 12, 2012 by Jetsun

[Tibetan_Ice]

Wow 13 is fantastic. So many perspectives and questions answered. Loved the part about how to use the substrate consciousness to recall previous lives and the part about how the layers of consciousness dissolve into the indestructible drop in the heart. Nice to know somebody knows all of these bits of knowledge.

 

Sadly, my kundalini has become super active when doing the meditations with eyes partially open and it is taking two days to get over the overload.

 

Also don't know about all the talk about getting the transmissions here. In the Flight of the Garuda it says if u don't have a transmission u can shout out PHAT real loud when u r deep and that will shatter the substrate.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Malcolm originally recommended it to me as part of a dharmawheel discussion we had.

 

 

Hi Jeff,

Yes, he certainly did recommend that you read more books (and so did everyone else there)..

 

You sure took a beating to get that recommendation.. Even from Malcolm.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9748

 

When it comes to Dzogchen, yes, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

If you are interested in Dzogchen, you should connect with a Dzogchen master.

 

Saying that there is one truth and different paths is meaningless in this context. Without connecting with the transmission of Dzogchen, and applying it in your life you will never understand what Dzogchen is.

 

M

[Jeff]

 

Hi Jeff,

Yes, he certainly did recommend that you read more books (and so did everyone else there)..

 

You sure took a beating to get that recommendation.. Even from Malcolm.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9748

 

Hi TI,

 

Always good to hear from you.

 

I very much enjoy my discussions with Malcolm & the guys at Dharmawheel. My early difficulty in discussions with them was that I did not realize that none of them can feel any energy or light. My original goal had been to compare the completion stage practices of different cultures/traditions. Ultimately, I was able to get the information I was looking for from other sources.

 

I appreciate Dzogchen, because the descriptions/texts mirror much of my experience. Also, CNN very clearly describes things from an energy/light perspective. Additionally, he goes beyond "clear mind" in his descriptions.

 

I hope you are well. Best wishes with your path.

 

[konchog uma]

 

Also don't know about all the talk about getting the transmissions here. In the Flight of the Garuda it says if u don't have a transmission u can shout out PHAT real loud when u r deep and that will shatter the substrate.

 

TI

 

interesting... Lama Surya Das also says you don't need a transmission to practice, you just sit until you recognize the natural state and then you rest in it. I have seen several traditional lamas (non-westerners) say flat out that this is erroneous, and not dzogchen. That being said, Keith Dowman is awesome, FotG has been on my reading list for a while now, along with two thousand other books unfortunately. I am reading an essay he wrote about the 84 mahasiddhas, very good stuff.

[konchog uma]

I get the impression from the film that Norbu was damaged by his monastic upbringing and as a result has somewhat stunted emotional relationships with many of his family, some say it is some sort of spiritual or cultural thing and isn't important and nobody is perfect, but personally I would have hoped his practice would have healed many of those wounds. I also got the impression that he only really started to take his practice that seriously when he became ill and thought he might die. There were a few scenes with the Dalai Lama and the DL seemed full of energy and delight while Norbu seemed kind of depressed to me. Yet that is all my subjective take on a short film, I have not attended any of his teachings so I may change my mind if I did.

 

Tsoknyi Rinpoche has some good articles on his website http://www.tsoknyiri...art-one-of-two/ and you can get a good 30 page talk of his here www.buddhistmala.com/store/Lung.doc for free from one of his retreats

 

He has written a few good books, he has a new one out called 'Open Heart Open Mind' which is really a beginners mass appeal book and seems very simplistic but I think it is excellent http://www.scribd.co...of-Essence-Love , and he has a few others which are more focused on Dzogchen like 'Care Free Dignity'

 

thanks jetsun,

 

i downloaded that lung doc but wont be able to read it for a while... and i have seen someone reading carefree dignity and was sort of struck by the cover graphic.. i wanted to look into it but they wouldnt put it down for long enough for me to check it out. This was while i was on retreat last month.

 

maybe i will add it to the growing list of books i intend to read

 

thanks again

[Jeff]

interesting... Lama Surya Das also says you don't need a transmission to practice, you just sit until you recognize the natural state and then you rest in it. I have seen several traditional lamas (non-westerners) say flat out that this is erroneous, and not dzogchen. That being said, Keith Dowman is awesome, FotG has been on my reading list for a while now, along with two thousand other books unfortunately. I am reading an essay he wrote about the 84 mahasiddhas, very good stuff.

 

Thanks for posting the reference to the essay.

 

[RongzomFan]

My early difficulty in discussions with them was that I did not realize that none of them can feel any energy or light.

 

What the heck is energy and light?

 

I can somewhat understand the energy part, but that would be anuyoga/HYT completion stage, not Dzogchen.

[RongzomFan]

The Flight of Garuda is for those with transmission. I'm pretty sure Keith Dowman says that in the introduction.

[RongzomFan]

Also, CNN very clearly describes things from an energy/light perspective. Additionally, he goes beyond "clear mind" in his descriptions.

 

What ARE you talking about

[Jeff]

What the heck is energy and light?

 

I can somewhat understand the energy part, but that would be anuyoga/HYT completion stage, not Dzogchen.

 

Definitions of light and energy vary widely, but regarding energy...

 

From "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

The individual is made up of three aspects: body, voice and mind.

...

Through the material dimension of the body we can understand its energy, or the "voice".

...

The energy of the individual is closely linked to the external energy, and each can influence the other.

...

It is possible to influence the external energy... Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy.

 

Also...

 

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its characteristic is that it manifests without interruption. The explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure, material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests are described.

 

More...

 

In Dzogchen, too, various methods of using energy are practiced, but these are not based on the activity of the mind.

 

Energy, that is beyond the mind, is often called light.

 

[Pero]

 

those three books have helped me a lot, but i just started to study dzogchen in earnest recently so i can't be a lot of help. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives tranmission three times a year (next in Feb 2013)

He gives it a lot more often than that. There's a webcast or more than one every month. You can get direct introduction at the end of December during the Guru Tragphur teachings. And personally I think it's much better to attend a webcast of a retreat than just the WWT.

 

but if you dont feel like the formality of the explanation, that live webcast is open during the time of transmission.. anyone can log on and connect with ChNNR

I'm afraid that you need to know what you're supposed to be doing. So getting an explanation is not really optional.

 

I've been missing his chod retreat because i am immersed in this Alan Wallace retreat right now, but as a member i have the replay option for a couple months.

Be careful, it might not be on that long... (btw you can't get transmission from Rinpoche from the replay)

 

I also got the impression that he only really started to take his practice that seriously when he became ill and thought he might die.

Nope. He was always taking his Dzogchen practice seriously. But he already accepted he was going to do die (he had some prophecy from his root teacher and someone else that his life was going to end around that time), had no regrets except for one if I remember right. Then after a while he started thinking maybe he could try to do something and he started doing the long life practice of Mandarava "seriously" and with that and the help of experimental drugs cured himself of a practicaly incurable disease.

 

The movie had a kind of sad tone for me too. But I think it was kind of made that way. Hard to judge from just that. It's like if you'd saw me once in a bad mood and conclude I'm always like that.

[Jeff]

What ARE you talking about

 

Hopefully, the energy/light component was shown a little in my other response. If not, I am happy to discuss any specific questions. On "clear mind"... Dzogchen, unlike many traditions, has sort of two levels (with the rainbow body). I believe many today who declare "enlightenment", have only reached clear/quiet mind. It also references a current discussion I am having with Vmarco in a different thread.

 

[konchog uma]

He gives it a lot more often than that. There's a webcast or more than one every month. You can get direct introduction at the end of December during the Guru Tragphur teachings. And personally I think it's much better to attend a webcast of a retreat than just the WWT.

 

Thanks Pero. Where are ChNNR's schedule of upcoming teachings posted? and why do you think its better to attend retreat via webcast than the worldwide transmission? I have my own thoughts but i would like to hear yours, thanks

 

I'm afraid that you need to know what you're supposed to be doing. So getting an explanation is not really optional.

 

yeah i talked to Harold at Tsegyalgar, and to the folks at the bookstore, and got a copy of Guruyoga before i got transmission, with the understanding that i would attend transmission, and use that book to study for it. They said if i didn't attend the transmission, there could be obstacles, and based on some previous experiences with ChNNRs restricted books, i believe them! I downloaded some a good while back, and had nightmares until i deleted them from my hard drive. And in the nightmares, beings told me that i was having the nightmares because i was messing with those books! (sorry rinpoche!) annnyway In Guruyoga is an outline of the WWT format, and its not something that someone who knew nothing about what they were doing, just tuning in to a free webcast, could really do. It certainly seems like one would need the explanation.

[konchog uma]

@Pero: i found it searching around tsegyalgar.org (the webcast calendar)... thank you

 

i will be on a weekend retreat for 3 of those days (dec 28 - 30th) with my girlfriend.

[RongzomFan]

Hopefully, the energy/light component was shown a little in my other response. If not, I am happy to discuss any specific questions. On "clear mind"... Dzogchen, unlike many traditions, has sort of two levels (with the rainbow body). I believe many today who declare "enlightenment", have only reached clear/quiet mind. It also references a current discussion I am having with Vmarco in a different thread.

 

 

Well yes, you are actually somewhat correct. Some Zen people may have recognized the instant of unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma).

 

But like you say, this would only be 1 out of the 3 wisdoms of rigpa.

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson