Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

I don't know. Perhaps it is common with internet going Dzogchen practitioners, given the influence Malcolm has. I suppose the question is, what in Dzogchen practice would give a person reason to think otherwise? Because otherwise it is a matter of faith: "My lama said this", "Some new age book I read said this", "Malcolm said this", "Some scholar said some ancient text said this" etc.

 

Hi "Creation",

 

Please address the fact that Dzogchen termas are revealed directly by Buddhas and are thus divine.

 

Not all scriptures are equal....

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

I don't know. Perhaps it is common with internet going Dzogchen practitioners, given the influence Malcolm has. I suppose the question is, what in Dzogchen practice would give a person reason to think otherwise? Because otherwise it is a matter of faith: "My lama said this", "Some new age book I read said this", "Malcolm said this", "Some scholar said some ancient text said this" etc.

 

You raise an interesting point. Given the the excellent books I had read, I had just assumed that was part of the transmissions.

 

[Jeff]

 

Well thats a translation. Those are not ChNN's words.

 

They are his books. He has a large organization, one would assume somebody word checked them. Additionally, the words are correct.

 

[RongzomFan]

They are his books. He has a large organization, one would assume somebody word checked them. Additionally, the words are correct.

 

 

 

I prefer precise Dzogchen terminology rather than dubious second hand translations.

 

A book in that vein would be "Approaching the Great Perfection" by Sam van Schaik.

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Be careful, it might not be on that long... (btw you can't get transmission from Rinpoche from the replay)

 

Hi Pero

And why not? Doesn't it transcend time and space?

link: http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/

''When we are doing this practice together we are unifying in the same state, that famous state in Dzogchen teaching called the primordial state.... that means teacher and students are all in that moment in the primordial state, so in this way there is a possibility to transmit. For transmission there is no distance, if you are far or near it doesn't matter because knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance. So for this reason we can use this method."

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

alwayson, on 13 December 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

 

 

 

The Flight of Garuda is for those with transmission. I'm pretty sure Keith Dowman says that in the introduction.

 

On what page does he say that, exactly?

 

Ti

 

page 9:

 

"The Starting Point: Initiation"

 

page 10:

"The answer is initiation, initiation by direct introduction to the nature of the mind."

 

Hi Alwayson

 

I can see the problem here. Apparently what you write and what I read are two different things.

 

Your first statement said quite plainly that "The Flight of Garuda is for those with transmission." To me, this is saying that the book is written for those who have had the prerequite of the transmission. Your statement implies, and not that subtly, that a person should not be reading the book without first having had the transmission to introduce the nature of the mind.

 

What a load of crap.

 

Your rebuttal isn't even a rebuttal nor proof of a prerequisite. You just totally missed it. Nowhere in "The Flight of the Garuda" does it say that only those who first have a transmission may read that book.

 

As a matter of fact, if you read the sentences on page 164, you will see:

But Patrul Rinpoche's extraordinary teaching has at its heart the method of self-introduction to the nature of the mind by means of an explosive utterance of the syllable PHAT. In the mental silence that follows immediately upon this expletive, the nature of a deconditioned, deconstructed mind may be intuited, and this is his introduction to the nature of mind.

 

In my vocabulary, "self-introduction" means that you can do it yourself. Like a self-serve gas bar..

 

link: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/incisive_precepts.htm

 

The Extraordinary Teaching of

Glorious Sovereign Wisdom

The Khepa Sri Gyelpo of Patrul Rinpoche

 

 

The Khepa Sri Gyelpo by Patrul Rimpoche is for some the single most important Dzogchen text in the Dzogchen Nyingthik tradition. Within the frame of view, meditation and action, Patrul Rimpoche includes Garab Dorje’s three incisive precepts, or imperatives, in his exposition of the vision, or view, of Dzogchen atiyoga. He gives very precise instructions in the practice of view and meditation. The meditation technique employed is explosive utterance of the sacred syllable PHAT.

 

Homage to the Guru!

Vision is Longchen Rabjam, the All-pervasive Vast Expanse;

meditation is Khyentse Wozer, the Radiance of Wisdom and Love;

action is Gyelwai Nyugu, the Bodhisattva.

Practicing such vision, meditation and action,

Without stress or strain you will attain Buddhahood in this lifetime;

And failing that - what peace of mind!

Yes, Vision is Longchen Rabjam, All-Pervasive Vast Expanse,

and the three precepts strike that essential reality.

First, keep the mind relaxed,

and neither diffused nor concentrated, remain without thought;

in this state of equilibrium and relaxation

abruptly utter a mind-shattering PHAT!

forcefully, loud and short - and there it is!

nothing at all but wonderment and illumination.

In illuminated wonderment is all-pervading freedom of mind,

and in that inexpressible all-penetrating freedom of mind

recognise the dharmakaya’s total presence.

A direct introduction into the nature of mind is the first imperative.

 

 

From page 167, "The Flight of the Garuda".

 

Anyway, Alwayson, I'd like to dedicate a song to you..

 

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

If I'm wrong then all Dzogchenpas are wrong. So I guess you are smarter than all of us. You should email Keith Dowman yourself.

 

You are the one thick as a brick, and always were.

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

And I'd like to dedicate this song to me and my no-self.. Wish you were here..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhGtRQxloQ

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Your first statement said quite plainly that "The Flight of Garuda is for those with transmission."

 

This is indeed the case, whether you accept it or not.

 

I never said you couldn't read it though, as it is an unrestricted book. But to put it into use, requires transmission. Those are the wishes of the tradition.

 

page 10;

 

"The basis of Dzogchen achievement is not attained without initiation; initiation is the function of the lama"

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

If I'm wrong then all Dzogchenpas are wrong. So I guess you are smarter than all of us. You should email Keith Dowman yourself.

 

You are the one thick as a brick, and always were.

 

Yup, for all eternity and then some..

 

It is easier when someone points the way, but it is not necessary.

 

After all, who gave the first transmission to Garab Dorje? Nobody. He got it from Sambhogakaya:

 

http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseofthesun/dzogchen.htm

 

Garab Dorje "was the first master of Dzogchen, who himself received transmission through direct visionary contact with the Sambhogakaya. Dzogchen teachings were taught for the first time on this planet in this time cycle by Garab Dorje, who manifested a birth in a Nirmanakaya form as a human being in the third century B.C.E., in the country of Ogyen, which was situated to the north west of India. He spent his life there teaching to both human beings and the dakinis. His final teaching before he entered the Body of Light was to summarize the teachings in Three Principles, sometimes known as "The Three Last Statements of Garab Dorje."

 

So if Garab Dorje got his transmission by contacting the Sambhogakaya, why can't anyone else do that by themselves?

And why should the fact that Garab Dorje obtained his "transmission on his own" prevent others from also doing that?

 

Duh..

 

TI

 

[RongzomFan]

Of course one can recognize the instant of unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma) without a Vajrayana transmission.

 

For example, Zen people do this.

 

But recognizing the instant of unfabricated freshness, doesn't make you a Vajrayana or Dzogchen practitioner.

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

After all, who gave the first transmission to Garab Dorje? Nobody. He got it from Sambhogakaya:

 

This is a shell game as Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, and Vimalamitra etc. are not historical characters, but are rather the manifestations of the terton's own wisdom in a lucid dream, where clarity is 7 times higher.

 

But to play this shell game, Garab Dorje was a nirmanakaya.

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

This is a shell game as Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, and Vimalamitra etc. are not historical characters, but are rather the manifestations of the terton's own wisdom in a lucid dream, where clarity is 7 times higher.

 

But to play this shell game, Garab Dorje was a nirmanakaya.

 

When you say "lucid dream", does that mean that you don't think Sambhogakaya is "true/real"? Additionally, that there are no primordial Buddhas/Beings?

 

Thanks.

 

[Jeff]

And I'd like to dedicate this song to me and my no-self.. Wish you were here..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhGtRQxloQ

 

TI

 

TI,

 

Why all the rudeness/anger? Alwayson has just shared his perspective/tradition. He may sometimes be terse, but he always calls it as he sees it.

 

Also, i agree that direct transmission from Sambhogakaya would be "pure Dzogchen". To do so, CNN says that it is necessary to be able to percieve the subtle diminension of light.

 

 

P.s. if somebody wants it, I will dig up the specific CNN quote.

[C T]

Also, i agree that direct transmission from Sambhogakaya would be "pure Dzogchen". To do so, CNN says that it is necessary to be able to percieve the subtle diminension of light.

 

 

P.s. if somebody wants it, I will dig up the specific CNN quote.

 

Its impossible in this day and age to ready oneself to receive transmission equal to that of Garab Dorje. Saying its possible is only speculative talk, meant for those sitting around the fire, stroking their chins and musing among themselves over a cuppa tea, and wasting talk on the intricacies of the Dzogchen path, and how it is more superior than any other practices.

 

Some people do wish to imagine they can do it by way of self-effort, but should the endeavor be undertaken, there will be a lot of unnecessary confusion leading to, in dzogchen lingo, Vajra hell. The fruit of Dzogchen is most alluring, but there are so many who, without proper guidance, get burned, like moths being attracted to flame.

 

People today have the idea that Dzogchen, oh, its simply resting in the natural state, free of concepts -- if its that easy, surely there will be beings walking around with halos around their heads, and rainbow light emitting from their hearts.

 

I have never, in all these 30 odd years of practice, seen such a person, even those who are reputedly 'enlightened' and 'realized', 'living buddha' and so on. Have you seen any? Have you been able to consistently perceive the subtle dimension of light?

 

If not, then, would it not be more sensible to discuss practical matters pertaining to establishing a firm foundation on the Dzogchen path, rather than promote speculation about aspects of the practices which would only serve more as a detriment than an actual help.

 

Sorry, but i dont agree with the term 'pure Dzogchen' as well.

Edited December 14, 2012 by C T

[Simple_Jack]

I may be wrong but I got the impression that Malcolm believes that prana is just air, nadis and chakras are purely symbolic, and light seen in Togel practice is a purely biological/optical phenomenon, and that anyone who believes otherwise has bought into new age bull****. Which, honestly, was quite shocking to me given his credentials.

This is highly unlikely considering that he has been practicing Vajrayana (Lamdre from Sakya and having received the Yangzab cycle of teachings from different Drikung Kagyu teachers) for like 20 years or more and has done a traditional 3 year retreat during that time.

 

I can't remember exactly what he started out in, but he also mentioned once about a particular Hindu (possibly a) yoga school before going towards Buddhism (he didn't specify how long he stayed with that school though.)

[Jeff]

 

Its impossible in this day and age to ready oneself to receive transmission equal to that of Garab Dorje. Saying its possible is only speculative talk, meant for those sitting around the fire, stroking their chins and musing among themselves over a cuppa tea, and wasting talk on the intricacies of the Dzogchen path, and how it is more superior than any other practices.

 

Some people do wish to imagine they can do it by way of self-effort, but should the endeavor be undertaken, there will be a lot of unnecessary confusion leading to, in dzogchen lingo, Vajra hell. The fruit of Dzogchen is most alluring, but there are so many who, without proper guidance, get burned, like moths being attracted to flame.

 

People today have the idea that Dzogchen, oh, its simply resting in the natural state, free of concepts -- if its that easy, surely there will be beings walking around with halos around their heads, and rainbow light emitting from their hearts.

 

I have never, in all these 30 odd years of practice, seen such a person, even those who are reputedly 'enlightened' and 'realized', 'living buddha' and so on. Have you seen any? Have you been able to consistently perceive the subtle dimension of light?

 

If not, then, would it not be more sensible to discuss practical matters pertaining to establishing a firm foundation on the Dzogchen path, rather than promote speculation about aspects of the practices which would only serve more as a detriment than an actual help.

 

Sorry, but i dont agree with the term 'pure Dzogchen' as well.

 

My comment above was in relation to TI's statement to Alwayson about the "possibility" of recieving a direct transmission from Sambhogkaya. It is definitely theorectically possible, but would require someone to be the equal of the Mahasiddhas. But, even in Dzogchen there have been at least 84 of them.

 

You may not find discussing the theory interesting, but for me it is vastly more interesting than the average TaoBums fare. Additionally, Creation has interestingly pointed out above that many senior Dzogchen practioners do not yet perceive any form of energy at all. For me, this calls into question their ability to be able to interpret the meaning of ancient texts. The "winds" are not farts as described by everyone in the Dharmawheel thread.

 

Regarding energy/light... I do not in any way claim to be enlightened (or a mahasiddha ), but I do percieve many levels/types of energy/light and I am friends with 20+ people of various traditions who can also percieve various forms of energy. In my experience, there are four general types of energy to be found. The third is often called light and fourth, subtle (or primordial) light.

 

Finally, my "pure Dzogchen" comment was joking. The concept being that if someone did it by direct transmission from Sambhogkaya, it would be a new (fresh or pure) lineage.

 

Enjoy the moment.

 

[Jeff]

 

This is highly unlikely considering that he has been practicing Vajrayana (Lamdre from Sakya and having received the Yangzab cycle of teachings from different Drikung Kagyu teachers) for like 20 years or more and has done a traditional 3 year retreat during that time.

 

I can't remember exactly what he started out in, but he also mentioned once about a particular Hindu (possibly a) yoga school before going towards Buddhism (he didn't specify how long he stayed with that school though.)

 

Take a look at the above Dharmawheel thread. It is pretty scary stuff.

 

[RongzomFan]

Take a look at the above Dharmawheel thread. It is pretty scary stuff.

 

 

???

[RongzomFan]

Regarding energy/light... I do not in any way claim to be enlightened (or a mahasiddha ), but I do percieve many levels/types of energy/light and I am friends with 20+ people of various traditions who can also percieve various forms of energy. In my experience, there are four general types of energy to be found. The third is often called light and fourth, subtle (or primordial) light.

 

Can you further explain your New Age views? I can see auras, but I certainly don't mix that up or conflate that with Dzogchen.

[Jeff]

 

???

 

Malcolm's and others comments that farts count as what the texts describe. They do not percieve the texts to mean anything but the "gross" physical level.

 

 

P.s. will respond to your other question later today. Picking up family at the airport.

[Simple_Jack]

I added a couple more quotes in an edit to show that Malcolm's understanding of prana is very different than that of a practicing energy worker. I can see why Jeff said what he said. Exegesis of ancient texts is not the point here, but how much experience one has in working with energy.

 

Then again, most of us are clueless about the use of terminology from the Indian schools they originated from.

 

There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air and space -- they are material, whether coarse or subtle.

 

When transmigration happens at the time of death, the mind/wind leaves specific orifices of the body, or channel openings. This would bot be necessary if the wind upon which the mind is mounted was not itself physical and material.

 

For example, when you have flatulence, this comes from the apana vāyu, the downward-voiding wind. That flatus is apana-vāyu.

 

Vāyu in the body is coarse or subtle depending upon how much it is moving. But it is still something physical, part of the rūpa skandha.

 

If you cannot accept this explanation, then you have to invent terms that do not exist in the original Tibetan and Sanskrit texts, such as the Vajramālā tantra that explain things like vāyus and so on.

 

I prefer to not to interpolate new age ideas onto Vajrayāna. So, I accept that vāyu in the body comes from the breath. If you think about it long enough, you will understand that I am correct. You need to study tantric embryology. When you do, this will make more sense to you......Hi Will,

 

There is no "prāṇa" out there in genera separate from the vāyu element. Prāṇa is just a name for the vāyu that supports life in the body of a sentient being.

 

The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing...... However, I will allow that my understanding of many tantric topics has been altered considerably through my studies of Tibetan medicine....This is a given. Non-controversial. Within the body there are five elemental vāyus. All material phenomena contain all four elements in some proportion....The meaning of prāṇa is "life". If there life in the sun?

 

The Vajramālā states very plainly:

 

The characteristic of the the element of air (vāyu)

is the vāyu (air) pervading the six cakras,

always present in the dharmacakra,

called prāṇa since it pervades migrating beings"

 

And:

 

The wheel of vāyu is explained to be prāṇa.

 

And apropos of the Kalacakra citation in the last post it states:

 

Depending on upper or lower,

the major vāyus, prāṇa and apana are located.

 

Prāṇa vāyu is furthere defined in this text:

 

From the traces of the all-basis consciousness

arises the stream of consciousness;

the affliction [consciousness] is the prāṇa vāyu.

 

So at least in Buddhist texts these things are very precisely defined.....Greg -- I am not saying that there there are no cakra and channels and so on -- of course there are.

 

What I am saying is that the way Western Buddhists relate to these things has been very much filtered through a new age lens. Part of the reason for this is that in Tibet, there is an understanding of physical anatomy which supports how so called "tantric anatomy" is understood. These kinds of issues are discussed in great detail in Tibetan medicine.

 

But we lack this background, culturally speaking. So we come up with many strange ideas.....My claim is that the winds in the body are based on the process of respiration. I never asserted that they do not undergo change and refinement in the body, of course they do. The function of the lungs is to bring air into body and pass it into the channels, refining it along the way. This vāyu, like any other of the four elements that are taken up by the body, undergoes a process of digestion. Breath is a kind of food. This is why we have rasāyanas of air, which involve prāṇayāma practices to extract the rasa of the vāyu directly and so on.

 

Anyway, this understanding comes from Tibetan Medicine. For example, one of my teachers, Tamdrin Gyal from Amdo, when explaining topics from Rangjung Dorje's famed Zabmo Nangdon to us asserted that while the vāyu/vatta of the body comes from external element of air conducted into the body through breathing, the air element outside the of body does not possess all seven characteristics of vāyu present in the body i.e, rough, light, cold, motile, subtle and hard.

 

When we talk about the five elements in the body, we always refer to them as the five refined elements. But, for example, Padmsambhava is very clear that the five refined elements in the body come from the five gross elements upon which we depend for life....Yes, I know the Prasna. One it is a late Upanishad. Second, it is still metaphorical. It is not prāṇa in the sense you take it to mean.

 

You have to understand, that for Ancient Indians who wrote the upanishads, the world was alive. The sun was a living being, but not the moon. It is very complicated.

 

But the ancient Indian idea of prāṇa was nothing like the new age idea people have now....The five elements are inherent in consciousness; consciousness is inherent in the five elements. There are no levels of subatomic anything which exist outside the sadadhātu, consciousness, space, air, fire, water and earth.

 

If you want to go further, we could discuss how these gross expressions of the sadadhātu have their corollaries in terms of wisdom and the five lights.

 

Now you can see that even the subatomic level must have the five elements in order to be material, physical (rūpena).....You cannot separate the pure sadhadhatu (wisdom and five lights) from the impure sadadhātu (consciousness and five elements). The difference is only vidyā or avidyā.

 

The sadadhātu are a model that is capable of encompassing any state of matter or mind, no matter how subtle or gross, macro, micro, nano, subatomic, etc.

 

It is inconsistent to say that the five elements function at the macro level of matter and are irrelevant at the subatomic level. The five elements are properties of all matter, period. The medicine tantra states:

 

"No formation without earth, no cohesion without water, no maturation without fire, no development without air, and no room for development without space."....You are missing the basic point of what I am saying. What I am saying is that if it is mental or material in any sense it is subsumed under the categories outlined by the Buddha. The description of the four elements describe all material states.....A channel is a channel: veins, arteries and nerves. You can add to this the lymphatic system, though they are considered to act as a support for bring moisture to the nervous system among their other functions.

 

A cakra in this view is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves. You can readily see five such clusters in the body. There are many more.

 

The channels we visualize are just a method -- why? because when we are visualizing ourselves as a deity, we visualize our bodies as completely hollow, made of light, with no internal organs.

 

The explicitly stated point of view of Tibetan Medicine is that the avadhūtī is all channels of air i.e. arteries; the rasanā is all channels of fire i.e. the blood vessels, and the lalanā all channels of water i.e. the nerves in the body. This is detailed at length by Zurkhar Lodo Gyalpo, is based primarily on the understanding of the anatomy of the body indicated by the Third Karmapa in his Zabmo Nangdon and reinforced by Desrid Sangye Gyatso. The latter two were both great Dzogchen masters as well though, Zurkharwa was not.

 

For example, the Kagyu Historian, Thubten Phunstog, has written an interesting commentaries on Tibetan Medicine, Six Yogas of Naropa, and well as Zabmo Nangdon. He makes the case that if channels are not physical structures in the body, then practices like gtum mo would have no effect. Then there is the very interesting doctor in Golok, Menpa Tenzin, who wrote a book based on doing many years of dissection of cadavers which contain very detailed drawings of his research. One may think this unnecessary given Netter's Anatomy and so on, but it is interesting -- and his dissections were guided from a Tibetan Medical perspective. He really explained this principle to us very well when we are interning in Xining. He is a disciple of Khenpo Munsel and In Tibet, he is a well respected Dzogchen master.

 

In reality, the three channels meet in each of these five (or six) locations in the body, according to the presentation I gave above from Kalackara. This simply means you will find clusters of arteries, veins and nerves at these locations in the body. Again, to restate, when we are doing deity yoga, our bodies are conceived to be hollow -- thus we visualize the channels in various ways depending on what system we are practicing. Hence, according Menpa Tenzin, et al, our visualization does not correspond with the manner in which the three channels actually exist in the body, and more importantly, it does not need to.

 

The reasons behind this again become very clear when one studies embryology according to Tibetan Medicine, Kalacakra, or Dzogchen Nyinthig. A very good book on this subject has been published by Francis Garret.

 

However, again, in the West, our idea of ṇāḍis has been very influenced by the acupuncture idea of "meridians" as well as Hindu ideas of cakras and ṇāḍis. The Upanishadic idea of cakras and ṇāḍis is related to the concept of pañcakośa originating in the Taittiriya Upanisha (which makes this idea a bit older than the Buddha's teaching), where they are explicitly connected with the prāṇamayakośa. On the other hand, the Upanishads are very important to understand, because they contain many ideas and concepts which reappear in altered form (i.e. revised in accordance with Buddha ideas) in Vajrayāna, Ayurveda/Tibetan Medicine, and even in Dzogchen.

 

 

EDIT: Quotes were taken from this thread: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3979

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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