Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

I don't see how your point relates to my comments above. I am not describing psychic abilities. I am discussing energy/light, per the previous comments on the CNN text.

 

 

You are just interpreting it in your own New Age way. I think the translation is really referring to dang, rolpa, rtsal.

[Jeff]

 

Those aren't from Dzogchen, they're Mahamudra Mahasiddhas.

 

See this is your problem. You are interpreting the texts according to your own ideas and are unable to comprehend that what something means to you is not necessarily the same thing as the meaning the text intended. Even if you look at Buddhism only, the same words in sutra can have a completely different meaning in tantra and a different meaning yet again in Dzogchen. Sometimes even the same word in Dzogchen can have different meanings depending on more specific context.

So while you are interpreting Dzogchen words according to your own ideas, others are following the real meaning taught by teachers of the past. The latter is verified, the former is not. So people will be giving you a hard time when you try to import your personal ideas into Dzogchen teachings.

 

"Wind" is the translation for rlung BTW.

 

Hi Pero,

 

Thanks for your comments. I am just trying to better understand Dzogchen. And yes, i am bringing my own experience/perspective to the table. Does your post mean that you disagree with all of the above CNN quoted texts? That your perspective is that Dzogchen texts are only describing normal human body systems?

 

 

P.s. thanks for the Mahamudra info.

[RongzomFan]

I am saying that Alwayson's unclear statement, that the book called "The Flight of the Garuda" is only for those who have received introduction.

 

 

Its only unclear, because you refuse to accept the truth.

 

You may have physically bought Flight of the Garuda, but it belongs to Dzogchenpas.

[RongzomFan]

working towards developing the energy body. Not that I will stop developing my energy body, of course.

 

How do you do this?

[RongzomFan]

There are many methods for breaking through to the other side. Dzogchen is a array of methods of learning how to dissolve the layers gradually, and sometimes shockingly. And I do agree, it would be very nice to have someone with the ability to point out, Yes!!! That is the primordial....

 

Dzogchen is not about realizing the nature of the mind.

 

Trekcho is only 1 of 3 wisdoms of rigpa.

[RongzomFan]

Meh, I don't care enough to try and point out where the discrepancies are stemming from. Honestly, I don't know why people obsess or make a big deal about chakras, energy channels or whatever.

 

I don't know about "energy" channels, but Malcolm always emphasized working with the channels and chakras.

[RongzomFan]

If you want to be a purist and belong to the Dzogchen club and restrict your practices, mentality and scope to the generally accepted principles of Dzogchen, I have no problem with that. I am not interested in belonging to clubs or propping up the belief system in order to convince myself of their validity. I would much rather find the truth as I am sure no one club has exclusive rights to it.

 

Noone cares if you become a Dzogchenpa or not.

[Jeff]

 

You know, I just remembered seeing some old footage of Norbu Rinpoche, perhaps a clip from "My Reincarnation", where he poked fun at Westerners thinking they were going to feel some kind of "vibration" from him. So there is a precedent going all the way back to Rinpoche for not emphasizing "energy". Now, this will require some cup-emptying on my part, because a major part of what my path has consisted of working towards developing the energy body. Not that I will stop developing my energy body, of course.

 

I wouldn't worry about it. Development of the energy body is a natural component of all paths. The question seems to be if one notices (or cares to notice). I have a Buddhist friend who found that when he "looked", the energy was there. Additionally, his meditation clarity was so great that after two days, he was describing details that were beyond my perception. Since energy is the constant, I had just hoped it could be used to make different paths more apple to apple than apple and oranges.

 

Thanks again.

 

[RongzomFan]

The perception of energy/light is independent of paths.

 

 

Yes, this sound like a mundane psychic ability.

 

You close your eyes and see shit. Everyone, including Malcolm by the way, is aware of this.

[Jeff]

 

You are just interpreting it in your own New Age way. I think the translation is really referring to dang, rolpa, rtsal.

 

OK. So then in summation, do you disagree with CNN or is your position still that he is being mistranslated?

 

[RongzomFan]

OK. So then in summation, do you disagree with CNN or is your position still that he is being mistranslated?

 

 

Those are not the only two options. But nice try. I have to give you a smilie for trying that.

[C T]

All of buddhism, even theravada, acknowleges mundane psychic abilities. Anyone can develop these abilities through meditation. See jhanas. Noone acknowledges them as liberative.

 

The point is not whether they are liberative or not.

 

What's to be considered is how much grasping/clinging arises in light of such mastery.

 

One who has pacified clinging, there's no reason why jhanas cannot be liberative.

 

Moreover, jhanas are indicative of one's progress along the (small level)path of accumulation only. They need not be obstructive, unless, as mentioned, one clings. Then one cannot move on (further) to paths of application, seeing and meditation. Being stuck, then of course jhanas become hindrances.

[Jeff]

 

Yes, this sound like a mundane psychic ability.

 

You close your eyes and see shit. Everyone, including Malcolm by the way, is aware of this.

 

Actually, I don't see anything when my eyes are closed. You seem to continually want to misunderstand my point.

 

Also, who is everyone? Hopefully, you kept my words in context.

 

[RongzomFan]

You seem to continually want to misunderstand my point.

 

How can anyone understand your post here???

 

http://thetaobums.co..._96#entry383138

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

Those are not the only two options. But nice try. I have to give you a smilie for trying that.

 

But I noticed that you have not refuted any of the CNN quotes (other than the previous "mistranslation" point.

 

Can you give me a third option? A different interpretation of the CNN words?

 

[RongzomFan]

The third option, as Pero pointed out:

 

See this is your problem. You are interpreting the texts according to your own ideas and are unable to comprehend that what something means to you is not necessarily the same thing as the meaning the text intended. Even if you look at Buddhism only, the same words in sutra can have a completely different meaning in tantra and a different meaning yet again in Dzogchen. Sometimes even the same word in Dzogchen can have different meanings depending on more specific context.

So while you are interpreting Dzogchen words according to your own ideas, others are following the real meaning taught by teachers of the past. The latter is verified, the former is not. So people will be giving you a hard time when you try to import your personal ideas into Dzogchen teachings.

 

"Wind" is the translation for rlung BTW.

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

But I noticed that you have not refuted any of the CNN quotes (other than the previous "mistranslation" point.

 

 

I do refute them. You can tell its a bullshit translation.

[RongzomFan]

One who has pacified clinging, there's no reason why jhanas cannot be liberative.

 

From the Vajrayana point of view, jhanas are hinderances.

 

http://www.dharmawhe...php?f=40&t=4704

 

Thats why Vajrayana is all about tummo, trul khor, karmamudra etc.

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

I do refute them. You can tell its a bullshit translation.

 

OK. If you think the book is bullshit, then I can understand your disagreement. I personally like the book, because it is consistent with my experience/perspective.

 

The above Pero point is a comment. It does not address the book or the CNN quotes.

 

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[C T]

From the Vajrayana point of view, jhanas are hinderances.

 

http://www.dharmawhe...php?f=40&t=4704

 

Thats why Vajrayana is all about tummo, trul khor, karmamudra etc.

 

Sorry, but this is incorrect.

[RongzomFan]

The above Pero point is a comment. It does not address the book or the CNN quotes.

 

 

 

The point addresses you, which is the problem.

[Jeff]

 

 

From the Vajrayana point of view, jhanas are hinderances.

 

http://www.dharmawhe...php?f=40&t=4704

 

Thats why Vajrayana is all about tummo, trul khor, karmamudra etc.

 

What is your description of tummo? What happens?

 

[RongzomFan]

Sorry, but this is incorrect.

 

Care to elaborate?

[RongzomFan]

What is your description of tummo? What happens?

 

 

I can point you to Malcolm's description of tummo:

 

"Well, it is because our visualization of our bodies as deities also does not correspond to our bodies in a real sense either. For example, when we visualize ourselves as Vajrasattva, in Vajrasattvas body there is no heart, no lungs, no liver, spleen/pancreas or kidney, no stomach, intestines, gall bladder, urinary bladder, ovaries or seminal vesicle, etc.

 

We primarily use the three channels as a visualization guide for the prāṇa vāyu in our bodies that we breath in. For example, we use the visualization of the lower ends of the three channels to focus our attention below the belly, for example -- through muscular contraction of the mulabandha and the uddiyāna bandhas we collect and force vāyu into arterial system and cause it to supersaturate our cells, capillaries, etc. with vāyu and ojas (the real bodhicitta element within our body) that it pumps. Simultaneously, our heart rate slows, and this means for a time not only is our consciousness "slowing down" i.e. because the karma vāyus are now suspended, but the venous blood is returning less impurities into the blood stream temporarily while the ojas is flushing and restoring the cells. This is why Khumbaka, for example, is the hidden secret to longevity in both Hatha Yoga of the Nathas, and in Vajrayāna. Through the two lower locks, we slow blood flow into the vena cava, saturate blood with prāṇa vāyu and send it into the arteries, etc. Ojas itself has two stores within the body -- the heart and also the brain. This is why we do the visualization of blazing and dripping, etc.

 

This is just a rough approximation."

[C T]

From the Vajrayana point of view, jhanas are hinderances.

 

http://www.dharmawhe...php?f=40&t=4704

 

Thats why Vajrayana is all about tummo, trul khor, karmamudra etc.

 

For a true Vajrayana practitioner, nothing is a hindrance.

 

Putting it another way, everything can be used as 'fuel' for sustaining the path.

 

'Vajra' -- thunderbolt -- all-clearing -- no obstacles.