Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

but the last four formless jhanas are not.

 

Yes they actually are. If you think they are not, thats a big problem.

[Pero]

Hi Pero

So why do they advertise on the website that time and space are irrelevant?

They don't.

 

Who is Rinpoche?

Uhm, you know, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, the guy who gives Dzogchen teaching and the person on the replays?

 

 

You took my statement out of context and now you are making it seem that I am saying the direct introduction is a load of crap.

No I didn't. Don't know where you got that idea from.

 

Your statement implies, and not that subtly, that a person should not be reading the book without first having had the transmission to introduce the nature of the mind.

What a load of crap.

 

 

 

I am saying that Alwayson's unclear statement, that the book called "The Flight of the Garuda" is only for those who have received introduction. How could it be when there are instructions for self-introduction directly in the book?

First of all, those instructions are not the actual Flight of the garuda, which was written by Shabkar. They are from Patrul Rinpoche. Second, those instructions are received from a teacher. It might be strange to you, but in Tibet people didn't just read stuff and then do it. They went and receieved transmission.

 

There was no mention of being a restricted book, like I've seen for the book called "The Cystal Cave".

Right, Dowman's translation isn't restricted. Erik Pema Kunsang's is. And Tony Duff warns in the introduction to receive transmission first. But more importantly than any of them, Shabkar himself says in his book that you need to receive instructions from a teacher.

 

But on the same token, I find it strange that nobody seems to be able to stretch their minds, examine that aspect (as Buddha would have said to do), and determine for one's self if it is in fact a neccessity.

Considering that it's been that way since forever and people get results from doing it that way why would any reasonable person think it otherwise or waste time trying to figure it out?

 

 

 

There are many ways to recognize the Primordial consciousness.. I got my first initiation when I was 16. I was riding my motorcyle and I broadsided a station wagon. As my body flew through the air, I watched the whole scene from 40 feet away. That is how you shatter the substrate consciousness and break through to the other side.

I'm sorry but this has nothing to do with Dzogchen. This was just an experience from a Dzogchen POV.

 

 

If you want to be a purist and belong to the Dzogchen club and restrict your practices, mentality and scope to the generally accepted principles of Dzogchen, I have no problem with that. I am not interested in belonging to clubs or propping up the belief system in order to convince myself of their validity. I would much rather find the truth as I am sure no one club has exclusive rights to it.

Oh yes of course, Shabkar, Longchenpa, Padmasambhava, Paltrul Rinpoche, Jigmed Lingpa,Vimalamitra etc. etc. they were all propping up the belief system in order to convince themselves of their validity. Come on man....

[Pero]

Thanks for your comments. I am just trying to better understand Dzogchen. And yes, i am bringing my own experience/perspective to the table. Does your post mean that you disagree with all of the above CNN quoted texts? That your perspective is that Dzogchen texts are only describing normal human body systems?

I probably don't disagree with anything Rinpoche said (sorry but to be more specific you'd have to tell me which quotes you mean... it's been a really looooong week for me). 'm not really sure what a "normal" human body system is. What is an abnormal one?

But I think I can tell you that Vajrayana as a whole is based on the body. That's a key difference from the rest of Mahayana (which is based on mind only) and the reason for it's speed.

[Jeff]

 

Even so, I would want to approach Dzogchen as a Dzogchenpa, not something else. So even if Dzochen practice develops the energy body as a result, if the practices do not do so intentionally engaging my tendency to do so would be me practicing Dzogchen in a spirit other than the spirit of Dzogchen.

 

To my perception, practice lineages have very deep underlying structures that usually are not communicated through words. So even though Zen, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen all emphasize pointing to direct experience of the natural state, the way that that state comes through the varying levels of consciousness is different and carries a unique signature, a unique "wiring" if you will.

 

So I am sympathetic to Pero et al recommending one approach Dzogchen on it's own terms rather than try to associate it with one's prior perceptions, however Dzogchen-like they seem.

 

I do not disagree with you at all. Your very statement of "very deep underlying structures that usually are not communicated through words" is my entire point of this thread. Primoridal paths at the deeper levels communicate "mind" to "mind" and then deeper "light" to "light". Everything that "exists"... Thoughts, bodies, trees, light, knowledge... Is a form of light/energy.

 

Everything that I have read in CNN's books, I have found correct up to my ability to percieve. But as I have shown in many CNN quotes, the "body" is much more than just "gross level" biological function.

 

[C T]

I understand your point about taking everything onto the path. This is Vajrayana 101.

 

That doesn't mean you go waste your time on useless practices.

 

If everything can be taken onto the path, then 'wasting time on useless practices' lends no meaning to the assertion.

[Jeff]

 

I probably don't disagree with anything Rinpoche said (sorry but to be more specific you'd have to tell me which quotes you mean... it's been a really looooong week for me). 'm not really sure what a "normal" human body system is. What is an abnormal one?

But I think I can tell you that Vajrayana as a whole is based on the body. That's a key difference from the rest of Mahayana (which is based on mind only) and the reason for it's speed.

 

Hi Pero,

 

There have been many all through the previous posts. They all relate to CNN's description of energy. In our broader discussion, I have been agreeing with everything CNN says, but some have been saying that I am incorrect. The basic point comes down to whether one perceives (or believes in) the subte energy systems (including the body) or not. Alwayson has given us many quotes from members of Dharmawheel that state that there is nothing but normal bodily function (like farts) The most recent one i posted is...

 

Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (pg 36)

 

The mind influences the condition of both the body and the energy, and at the same time depends on them. Sometimes the mind is totally enslaved by the energy and there is no way to balance it without clearing up the disorders of the energy first.

 

The debate is simple... Do you agree with CNN in the above quote? I agree with CNN.

 

 

(edit - added or believes in)

Edited December 15, 2012 by Jeff

[Jeff]

 

If everything can be taken onto the path, then 'wasting time on useless practices' lends no meaning to the assertion.

 

From your perspective, is there a meaningful difference between Dzogchen and other Buddhist practices up to the point of quiet/clear mind? (Other than transmissions/teachings of a guru).

 

Thanks.

 

[C T]

From your perspective, is there a meaningful difference between Dzogchen and other Buddhist practices up to the point of quiet/clear mind? (Other than transmissions/teachings of a guru).

 

Thanks.

 

 

Quiet/clear mind can be with traces, without traces.

 

Its my understanding that all authentic Buddhist paths can lead to quiescence.

 

Dzogchen is not more supreme than other paths, but has the potential to yield quicker realizations, and the practices are, essentially, not as difficult to master. Even so, it appears to be more hazardous. As one gets deeper, the guide rails will fall away. In other paths, as far as i know, such a risk is almost zero.

 

Not the path, but the individual practitioner's confidence in the chosen practice would be the key to progress, i believe.

[Ish]

If you are sitting and meditating to create these contrived and conceptual jhana states, how is that not a choice?

 

In my experience jhanas easily appear naturally, not made up or created intentionally. For how advanced you imply yourself to be these are completely basic and just appear if one employs a one pointed meditation focus, so i'm surprised you say this.

[Jeff]

 

Quiet/clear mind can be with traces, without traces.

 

Its my understanding that all authentic Buddhist paths can lead to quiescence.

 

Dzogchen is not more supreme than other paths, but has the potential to yield quicker realizations, and the practices are, essentially, not as difficult to master. Even so, it appears to be more hazardous. As one gets deeper, the guide rails will fall away. In other paths, as far as i know, such a risk is almost zero.

 

Not the path, but the individual practitioner's confidence in the chosen practice would be the key to progress, i believe.

 

Thank you for your excellent advice.

 

I have found that Quiet/clear mind always has more traces (obstructions) clear. The "local body/mind" is only the beginning.

 

[Ish]

Another point i want to raise with regards to what you wrote is this: In the Great Perfection, thoughts need not have to watched. Those who have attained stability retains the carefree posture where thoughts are self-liberated spontaneously as they arise, into the vast expanse of primordial purity. Any 'doing' (watching is also a 'doing'), regardless of subtlety, is still not Ati yet.

 

Hi C T, I currently practice some Dzogchen type meditation because well... it just feels normal for me and i hope to participate in a transmission at some point.

 

Now what I have noticed is that basically no thoughts arise, my understanding is that thought or no-thought is irrelevant as the natural mind is beyond this.

 

So can you tell me why no thoughts arise? Is it due to not actually being the natural state (where thoughts spontaneously arise and dissolve themselves) or is this normal. When some thought arises it does just go by itself without any effort so i may be on the right track, but for the vast majority of the time there's no thoughts.

[RongzomFan]

In my experience jhanas easily appear naturally, not made up or created intentionally. For how advanced you imply yourself to be these are completely basic and just appear if one employs a one pointed meditation focus, so i'm surprised you say this.

 

I'm sure you are surprised. Are there any Buddhists even on this forum? Has anyone even studied basic Madhyamaka up on here? Not that Madhyamaka is required for Dzogchen, but it seems like we are talking more about Buddhism than Dzogchen.

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

1. Jeff what do you feel with your heart?

 

2. How do you feel with your heart?

 

3. if its all about feeling, why do you use visual terms such as light?

[Pero]

Hi Pero,

 

There have been many all through the previous posts. They all relate to CNN's description of energy. In our broader discussion, I have been agreeing with everything CNN says, but some have been saying that I am incorrect. The basic point comes down to whether one perceives (or believes in) the subte energy systems (including the body) or not. Alwayson has given us many quotes from members of Dharmawheel that state that there is nothing but normal bodily function (like farts) The most recent one i posted is...

 

Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (pg 36)

 

The mind influences the condition of both the body and the energy, and at the same time depends on them. Sometimes the mind is totally enslaved by the energy and there is no way to balance it without clearing up the disorders of the energy first.

 

The debate is simple... Do you agree with CNN in the above quote? I agree with CNN.

 

Sure I do. But I don't see why you can't consider that a normal bodily function?

[Jetsun]

Hi C T, I currently practice some Dzogchen type meditation because well... it just feels normal for me and i hope to participate in a transmission at some point.

 

Now what I have noticed is that basically no thoughts arise, my understanding is that thought or no-thought is irrelevant as the natural mind is beyond this.

 

So can you tell me why no thoughts arise? Is it due to not actually being the natural state (where thoughts spontaneously arise and dissolve themselves) or is this normal. When some thought arises it does just go by itself without any effort so i may be on the right track, but for the vast majority of the time there's no thoughts.

 

It could be that you are doing what Master Nan Huai-Chin calls 'dead tree zen' where you sit and dull your mind and repress your thoughts into a state of no thought.

[Jeff]

 

Sure I do. But I don't see why you can't consider that a normal bodily function?

 

Agreed. And that is my point.

 

The Dharmawheel threads that Alwayson presented imply otherwise. Stating no subtle energy (just "winds" like farts ).

 

Sounds like we have no disagreement.

 

[Jeff]

1. Jeff what do you feel with your heart?

 

2. How do you feel with your heart?

 

3. if its all about feeling, why do you use visual terms such as light?

 

1) Feeling with the heart is very hard to describe with words (hence the need for direct transmissions). But, feeling "oneness" is an approximation.

 

2) it just happens naturally as one percieves beyond the mind. Also, answering this question is why I have been trying to find Dzogchen people to talk to. CNN describes the process at a high level in his books. I can tell you in "energy terms", but not Dzogchen terms.

 

3) I use terms like "light" because that is what it feels like. One could also say infinitely subtle energy. It is the "stuff" of existence/creation. One can find/see the "light" if you can trace a thought back to the "pre-intent" of the thought. That is why so many traditions focus on the gap between thoughts.

 

[C T]

Hi C T, I currently practice some Dzogchen type meditation because well... it just feels normal for me and i hope to participate in a transmission at some point.

 

Now what I have noticed is that basically no thoughts arise, my understanding is that thought or no-thought is irrelevant as the natural mind is beyond this.

 

So can you tell me why no thoughts arise? Is it due to not actually being the natural state (where thoughts spontaneously arise and dissolve themselves) or is this normal. When some thought arises it does just go by itself without any effort so i may be on the right track, but for the vast majority of the time there's no thoughts.

 

Hi Ish,

 

Thanks for the questions.

 

According to my understanding, rigpa is more than mere cessation of thoughts (stilled mind). Its more to do with recognizing the spaces in between moments of seeing, moments of hearing, imagining, and verbal thinking, and then, with practice, one learns to abide more and more in these gaps, without falling under the spell of mental dullness. Resting, yet alert -- this is the key point.

 

Its wonderful to hear that you have overcome incessant mental chatter. This is rare indeed. Well done, my friend.

[Ish]

Hi Ish,

 

Thanks for the questions.

 

According to my understanding, rigpa is more than mere cessation of thoughts (stilled mind). Its more to do with recognizing the spaces in between moments of seeing, moments of hearing, imagining, and verbal thinking, and then, with practice, one learns to abide more and more in these gaps, without falling under the spell of mental dullness. Resting, yet alert -- this is the key point.

 

Its wonderful to hear that you have overcome incessant mental chatter. This is rare indeed. Well done, my friend.

 

Thanks for answering.

I guess having an aware silent mind (so long as its not attached to or forced) is helpful to break through to rigpa. Will just have to simply keep practicing <------ Most of my questions have this as a resolution, but I always get something useful or a reminder from asking those who are further along the path such as yourself.

[RongzomFan]

1) Feeling with the heart is very hard to describe with words (hence the need for direct transmissions). But, feeling "oneness" is an approximation.

 

2) it just happens naturally as one percieves beyond the mind. Also, answering this question is why I have been trying to find Dzogchen people to talk to. CNN describes the process at a high level in his books. I can tell you in "energy terms", but not Dzogchen terms.

 

3) I use terms like "light" because that is what it feels like. One could also say infinitely subtle energy. It is the "stuff" of existence/creation. One can find/see the "light" if you can trace a thought back to the "pre-intent" of the thought. That is why so many traditions focus on the gap between thoughts.

 

 

Are you talking about recognizing the instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind?

 

In trekcho, we have precise terms for everything.

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

The Dharmawheel threads that Alwayson presented imply otherwise. Stating no subtle energy (just "winds" like farts ).

 

I also cited Dr. David Gordon White, a top academic.

 

But anyway to the point:

 

Question to Malcolm:

Third question, is there any relation between the so-called energy field that the new agey people talk about and the energy that Dzogchen talks about?

 

 

Answer by Malcolm:

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that the energy that new age folks are talking about is what we call "rlung", vāyu or "wind energy". No, because they do not understand this point at all.

Edited December 15, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

Are you talking about recognizing the instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind?

 

In trekcho, we have precise terms for everything.

 

Hi Alwayson,

 

I am not claiming anything. I was just answering your questions. As I mentioned in my response to your 2nd question, one of my goals is to try to translate terms. The words may be precise, but look at the difficulty you and I have had on energy in the body discussion.

 

Thanks.

 

[Jeff]

 

I also cited Dr. David Gordon White, a top academic.

 

 

Does Dr. White "reside" in Rigpa? Is he an agreed upon Dzogchen master?

 

Thanks.

 

[RongzomFan]

Does Dr. White "reside" in Rigpa? Is he an agreed upon Dzogchen master?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Go ahead and reject White. Doesn't mean your New Age stuff is correct.

[RongzomFan]

Hi Alwayson,

 

I am not claiming anything. I was just answering your questions. As I mentioned in my response to your 2nd question, one of my goals is to try to translate terms. The words may be precise, but look at the difficulty you and I have had on energy in the body discussion.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Are you talking about recognizing the instant of unfabricated 'awareness' (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind?

 

In trekcho, we have precise terms for everything.