Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

So, if you can't grasp the fact that they do advertise on the website that "knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance." that it is in plain sight on the website, I'm not sure there is much point in talking to you.

 

Now you are resorting to abject falsehoods. This quote is right on the page for transmissions, including the schedule.

 

http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/

 

 

 

Tibetan_Ice, on 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Nope. Those instructions, the PHAT instructions are in the book called "The Flight of the Garuda", revised edition, compiled and translated by Keith Dowman in two places.. First, in the actual "The Flight of the Garuda" text on page 105. It is a commentary by Keith in which he lists several alternate meditation methods, of which PHAT is included. (for practitioners of lessor capacities).

The second occurence is in "The Extraordinary Reality of Soverign Wisdom". Page 167.

 

:excl: Right, those methods are for those who have transmission......There are an infinite amount of methods for those with tranmission. :excl:

[Jeff]

Tibetan_Ice, on 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

 

 

But you know, I don't see why a Dzogchen master such as C N Norbu, couldn't bypass time and space and grant transmissions through the astral plane, or any plane or method. Many gurus, spiritual beings and even Max (kunlun) have the ability to visit other people through the astral planes, or dreams or visions.

 

 

Hi TI,

 

From my experience with other primordial paths, I am pretty sure what you are describing as astral communication is what CNN means by mind-to-mind. And I would agree that the concept of time in general is pretty flexible on the astral level.

 

[RongzomFan]

Many gurus, spiritual beings and even Max (kunlun) have the ability to visit other people through the astral planes, or dreams or visions.

 

Who are these many gurus? Name names, or I call b.s.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Ish,

 

Thanks for the questions.

 

According to my understanding, rigpa is more than mere cessation of thoughts (stilled mind). Its more to do with recognizing the spaces in between moments of seeing, moments of hearing, imagining, and verbal thinking, and then, with practice, one learns to abide more and more in these gaps, without falling under the spell of mental dullness. Resting, yet alert -- this is the key point.

 

Its wonderful to hear that you have overcome incessant mental chatter. This is rare indeed. Well done, my friend.

 

Hi C T,

I think your interpretation is a good attempt at an explanation, but I don't think it is "focusing on the gaps" between thoughts. Here is what C N Norbu says about thoughts:

 

When one speaks of the way one continues in contemplation, explanations are given of the various experiences with which contemplation is linked. All the various experiences that arise in practice are related to the condition of our actual existence, which can be said, in general, to have two aspects or characteristics, the "calm state" and the "movement." When a thought arises and we observe it to discover where it arose from, where it stays, and where it goes to, we don't find anything concrete at all. Even if our thoughts apparently do seem to exist, when we observe them, they just disappear without leaving a trace. This situation is the same, too, in relation to the voice and the body. If one has a headache, for example, and observes where the pain arises from and where it goes when it disappears, one can't come to any real conclusion. This condition of voidness in relation to the body corresponds to the calm state in relation to the mind. But even if our thoughts disappear in this way, they nevertheless then arise again without interruption. This is what is called the "movement," which is the functioning of clarity. In Dzogchen it is necessary to learn to work with this "movement" and to integrate all the aspects of one's energy.

 

The "calm state" is just an experience, and is not contemplation itself. When one is actually in contemplation, in the state of pure presence, there is then no difference between the calm state and the movement. So there is no need for one to seek a state without thoughts. As Garab Dorje said, "If there does arise [the movement of thoughts], be aware of the state in which they arise. If one is free of thoughts, be aware of the state in which one is free of them. Then there is no difference between the arising of thought and being free of it." Thus, when one practices contemplation, there is no need to try to find a calm state and avoid the movement, but one should just maintain one and the same state of presence in both experiences.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (pp. 116-117).

 

Note: "state of presence" is defined as rigpa in this book.

 

and this:

 

When we are in the state of contemplation, even if a thousand thoughts arise, we don't follow them, but just remain observing everything that happens. This is what is meant by presence. Finding oneself in the state of "what is" means maintaining continuous presence. So the samaya of Dzogchen means not becoming distracted, and just that. But that doesn't mean that if one does become distracted one has broken one's samaya. What one has to do is notice what has happened, and try once again not to become distracted.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (p. 114).

 

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

"A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa."

——Dudjom Rinpoche on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje

[RongzomFan]

Tibetan_Ice, on 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

And you know, most of the "Flight of the Garuda" seems to be pointing out instructions.

 

Right they are instructions for those with transmission. Not you.

[C T]

Hi C T,

I think your interpretation is a good attempt at an explanation, but I don't think it is "focusing on the gaps" between thoughts. Here is what C N Norbu says about thoughts:

 

 

 

Note: "state of presence" is defined as rigpa in this book.

 

and this:

 

 

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

Dzogchen has 3 main distinctive levels. Outer, inner and innermost are the main 3. At the innermost level, Rigpa is revealed as the union of basic space and wakefulness (ying and yeshe in Tibetan). When a readied student is shown the nature of this union, that is also 'rigpa'.

 

Regarding this union, Master Shri Singha wrote: "First, reach the meeting point. Next, rest in the resting place, and finally, let go to where it goes." This simple phrase encapsulates the whole essence of Dzogchen. One teacher i know equates this 'resting place' with space, empty, yet endlessly filled with potential.

 

In the words of Tulku Urgyen : "Two basic principles in the innermost Dzogchen teachings are space and awareness, in Tibetan, ying and rigpa. Ying is defined as unconstructed space devoid of concepts, while rigpa means the 'knowing' of this basic space.

 

In the context of the threefold sky practice, outer ying is defined as a clear sky free from the three defects of clouds, mist and haze. This external sky is an example for the actual inner ying and is used as a support for recognizing this state. The inner ying is the nature of mind, a state that is already empty. And, the innermost ying, or basic space, is the recognition of buddha nature. The innermost ying is actually rigpa, nondual awareness itself.

 

One sign of having trained in rigpa, the awakened state, is simply that conceptual thinking, which is the opposite of rigpa, grows less and less. The gap between thoughts grow longer and longer and occurs more and more frequently. The state of unfabricated awareness, what the tantras call the 'continuous instant of nonfabrication' becomes more prolonged. Once we become accustomed to the genuine state of unfabricated rigpa, it will automatically start to last longer and longer."

 

This ought to clear matters somewhat.

Edited December 16, 2012 by C T

[Pero]

It is so nice to hear intelligent, well-educated, gifted teachers life Alan Wallace share the benefits of his insights.

You say that only because what he is saying agrees with your own views.

 

Very nice to hear. Are you still with me on these quotes?

 

CNN states in (page 31)" Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State"

 

The energy of the individual is closely linked to the external energy, and each can influence the other.

...

Working from the other way round, It is possible to influence the external energy, carrying out what are called "miracles". Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy, through which one obtains the capacity of power over external phenomena.

 

Sure.

 

So, if you can't grasp the fact that they do advertise on the website that "knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance." that it is in plain sight on the website, I'm not sure there is much point in talking to you. Or perhaps you are just saying the opposite of what I am saying just to be dialectic..

I think you haven't read well enough. It says you have to be in the same state at the same moment. And "knowledge of the transmission" is not the method for the transmission. For the method you have to be at the same time. That is my understanding anyway.

 

But Alan Wallace says that the knowledge of the initial pointing out instructions, if clearly understood by the recipient, is sufficient.

Yup.

 

So I think CN Norbu is saying that it is not important to belong to a club or cherry pick teachings based on labels , it is more important to discover "what is".

Sure, no disagreement there.

[Pero]

Hi TI,

 

From my experience with other primordial paths, I am pretty sure what you are describing as astral communication is what CNN means by mind-to-mind.

Sorry but he really doesn't.

[konchog uma]

Who are these many gurus? Name names, or I call b.s.

 

its a well known fact that many students have dreams of their teachers or see them in a mystical way.

 

you just like to call b.s.

 

that doesnt make it b.s.

[konchog uma]

CT,

 

it looks like Tulku Urgyen is saying that rigpa is equivalent to buddha-nature (tathagatagarba) or is there a better sanskrit word?

 

thanks

[C T]

CT,

 

it looks like Tulku Urgyen is saying that rigpa is equivalent to buddha-nature (tathagatagarba) or is there a better sanskrit word?

 

thanks

 

Hi Anamatva,

 

In sanskrit, the word for buddha-nature is sugata-garbha. Tibetan -- deshek nyingpo.

Some texts also employ the term, 'dhatu' (if i remember correctly).

 

Tathagathagarbha literally means the womb containing a Blissfully Gone One. Buddha potentiality awaiting ripening.

 

Hope this is helpful sir.

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva,

 

In sanskrit, the word for buddha-nature is sugata-garbha. Tibetan -- deshek nyingpo.

Some texts also employ the term, 'dhatu' (if i remember correctly).

 

Tathagathagarbha literally means the womb containing a Blissfully Gone One. Buddha potentiality awaiting ripening.

 

Hope this is helpful sir.

 

thanks i knew that once

 

so is rigpa the same as sugatagarbha?

[RongzomFan]

its a well known fact that many students have dreams of their teachers or see them in a mystical way.

 

you just like to call b.s.

 

that doesnt make it b.s.

 

Since you can't name a single name either, I call b.s.

[RongzomFan]

CT,

 

it looks like Tulku Urgyen is saying that rigpa is equivalent to buddha-nature (tathagatagarba) or is there a better sanskrit word?

 

thanks

 

rigpa translates to vidya in sanskrit and knowledge in english.

Edited December 16, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

thanks i knew that once

 

so is rigpa the same as sugatagarbha?

 

rigpa translates to vidya in sanskrit

[Jeff]

 

Sorry but he really doesn't.

 

"Since ancient times, knowledge of Dzogchen has been communicated by means of three types of transmission: direct, that is mind to mind; symbolic, through the the use of gestures, object or riddles; and oral, through spoken language."

 

The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen by CNN

 

What do you think Guru yoga is? Why do you think Dzogchen is "faster"?

 

 

[RongzomFan]

What do you think Guru yoga is? Why do you think Dzogchen is "faster"?

 

Guru yoga in Dzogchen is the tibetan letter A surrounded by a thigle.

 

'A' is merely a symbol for kadag i.e. trekcho.

Edited December 16, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

Guru yoga in Dzogchen is the tibetan letter A surrounded by a thigle.

 

'A' is merely a symbol for kadag i.e. trekcho.

 

That is symbol, not a Guru.

 

 

[RongzomFan]

That is symbol, not a Guru.

 

Now you are just losing me.

[RongzomFan]

This is guru yoga in Dzogchen. The white Tibetan letter A is a symbol for trekcho.

Edited December 16, 2012 by alwayson

[Pero]

"Since ancient times, knowledge of Dzogchen has been communicated by means of three types of transmission: direct, that is mind to mind; symbolic, through the the use of gestures, object or riddles; and oral, through spoken language."

 

The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen by CNN

Right. It has nothing to do with astral planes, dreams and whatnot.

[Jeff]

 

Right. It has nothing to do with astral planes, dreams and whatnot.

 

How it is experienced is dependent on the "clarity" of the recieving person. Most do not have the capacity to consciously percieve the transmission, so the mind unconsciously translates it into a dream. Someone with greater clarity would experience seeing (and possibly hearing) the guru in deep consciousness (or astral). Someone with high clarity would directly receive the knowledge (but would not see anything). In general, those with high levels of clarity do not dream (they have made the unconscious conscious).

 

If one does not "receive" transmission, it is either because they have not yet reached the clarity to do so, or the "transmitter" is not yet a true master, and only a teacher.

 

[Jeff]

This is guru yoga in Dzogchen. The white Tibetan letter A is a symbol for trekcho.

 

It is a powerful symbol (with definite energy), but it is only a symbol and not a guru.

 

[Pero]

How it is experienced is dependent on the "clarity" of the recieving person. Most do not have the capacity to consciously percieve the transmission, so the mind unconsciously translates it into a dream. Someone with greater clarity would experience seeing (and possibly hearing) the guru in deep consciousness (or astral). Someone with high clarity would directly receive the knowledge (but would not see anything). In general, those with high levels of clarity do not dream (they have made the unconscious conscious).

 

If one does not "receive" transmission, it is either because they have not yet reached the clarity to do so, or the "transmitter" is not yet a true master, and only a teacher.

 

I'm sorry but this really has nothing to do with it. Like I told you before, you are importing your own ideas into things that mean something completely different.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Pero