Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[Jeff]

 

I'm sorry but this really has nothing to do with it. Like I told you before, you are importing your own ideas into things that mean something completely different.

 

 

I disagree. My experiences match what CNN has written. Ask him (or some other master) if I am incorrect.

 

Also, you (and Alwayson) have not answered my repeated question as to why you believe Dzogchen/Guru Yoga/Primordial is a "faster" path. Once you can answer that question, you will be able to notice the "transmissions".

 

[C T]

thanks i knew that once

 

so is rigpa the same as sugatagarbha?

 

During a Q&A session with his students, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche did equate rigpa with sugatagarbha.

 

Please pm if you want a link to said article.

[Pero]

 

I disagree. My experiences match what CNN has written. Ask him (or some other master) if I am incorrect.

Dude, are you serious?

I think any further discussion is pointless. Though now I suppose it was so from the beginning.

[C T]

 

I disagree. My experiences match what CNN has written. Ask him (or some other master) if I am incorrect.

 

Also, you (and Alwayson) have not answered my repeated question as to why you believe Dzogchen/Guru Yoga/Primordial is a "faster" path. Once you can answer that question, you will be able to notice the "transmissions".

 

 

Faster because there is literally nothing to be done.

 

But such a realization only comes to those with exceptional mental dispositions.

 

To reach the level of having an exceptional mental disposition would take years of hard grafting.

 

So, its fast, and yet not that fast.

[Creation]

In sanskrit, the word for buddha-nature is sugata-garbha. Tibetan -- deshek nyingpo.

Some texts also employ the term, 'dhatu' (if i remember correctly).

 

Tathagathagarbha literally means the womb containing a Blissfully Gone One. Buddha potentiality awaiting ripening.

Hello.

 

According to my research, the common term for this concept in the original sutras is tathagatagarbha, womb of the thus-come-one. The term buddha-dhatu is also used, which more directly translates to buddha nature, or buddha element, and this became the preferred term in China and hence Zen and hence the West. Sugatagarbha is apparently equivalent to tathagatagarbha, but more common in Tantra.

 

Now as far as equivalences, off the top of my head there are several related terms of soteriolgical import in sutra:

Dharmakaya

Dharmata

Tathata

Dharmadhatu

Buddha-dhatu

Tathagatagarbha

Buddha-jnana

Alaya-vijnana

 

To which tantra variously adds:

Sugatagarbha

Mahamudra

Prabhasvara/Osel

Alaya/kungzhi

Rigpa

Gzhi

 

Exactly how all these terms are related to one another seems to vary from one lineage to the next, and even within one lineage different teachers might have slightly different explanations.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Creation

[Jeff]

 

Dude, are you serious?

I think any further discussion is pointless. Though now I suppose it was so from the beginning.

 

OK. But seriously consider trying to answer my question.

 

Also, I highly recommend CNN's books, the two I have read are excellent.

 

[Jeff]

 

Faster because there is literally nothing to be done.

 

But such a realization only comes to those with exceptional mental dispositions.

 

To reach the level of having an exceptional mental disposition would take years of hard grafting.

 

So, its fast, and yet not that fast.

 

It is true that "theoretically" nothing needs to be done. But, that has nothing to do with the Dzogchen/Guru Yoga path. How and why it is "faster"...?

 

[C T]

Hello.

 

According to my research, the common term for this concept in the original sutras is tathagatagarbha, womb of the thus-come-one. The term buddha-dhatu is also used, which more directly translates to buddha nature, or buddha element, and this became the preferred term in China and hence Zen and hence the West. Sugatagarbha is apparently equivalent to tathagatagarbha, but more common in Tantra.

 

Now as far as equivalences, off the top of my head there are several related terms of soteriolgical import in sutra:

Dharmakaya

Dharmata

Tathata

Dharmadhatu

Buddha-dhatu

Tathagatagarbha

Buddha-jnana

Alaya-vijnana

 

To which tantra variously adds:

Sugatagarbha

Mahamudra

Prabhasvara/Osel

Alaya/kungzhi

Rigpa

Gzhi

 

Exactly how all these terms are related to one another seems to vary from one lineage to the next, and even within one lineage different teachers might have slightly different explanations.

 

Thank you for the extensive clarification of the term.

 

Dharma Dictionary defines it thus: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Sugatagarbha

Edited December 16, 2012 by C T

[Tibetan_Ice]

Now you are resorting to abject falsehoods. This quote is right on the page for transmissions, including the schedule.

 

http://tsegyalgar.or...etransmissions/

 

 

Gee Alwayson, do you even follow the arguments in the posts?

 

The original comment that I was replying to was Pero's comment that "Be careful, it might not be on that long... (btw you can't get transmission from Rinpoche from the replay)" when he was referring to the fact that Anamatva was going to use the replay option to monitor the transmission.

 

Pero is saying that you can't get the transmission from Rinpoche from the replay.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-with-b-alan-wallace/page__st__48#entry382762

 

My argument is that it is advertised on the website that "For transmission there is no distance, if you are far or near it doesn't matter because knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance. So for this reason we can use this method."

 

So, if knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance, then a replay of the transmission should be just as effective, hence Pero is mistaken.

 

So, the next time you call me a liar, at least have the courtesy to understand the topic before shooting off your misguided conclusions.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

How and why it is "faster"...?

 

 

 

You can keep asking this but you won't get an answer. Because it has to do with secret stuff.

[RongzomFan]

Gee Alwayson, do you even follow the arguments in the posts?

 

The original comment that I was replying to was Pero's comment that "Be careful, it might not be on that long... (btw you can't get transmission from Rinpoche from the replay)" when he was referring to the fact that Anamatva was going to use the replay option to monitor the transmission.

 

Pero is saying that you can't get the transmission from Rinpoche from the replay.

 

http://thetaobums.co..._48#entry382762

 

My argument is that it is advertised on the website that "For transmission there is no distance, if you are far or near it doesn't matter because knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance. So for this reason we can use this method."

 

So, if knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance, then a replay of the transmission should be just as effective, hence Pero is mistaken.

 

So, the next time you call me a liar, at least have the courtesy to understand the topic before shooting off your misguided conclusions.

 

TI

 

 

And?

 

Pero is right. You can't get transmission from a replay. These are the rules of Dzogchen Community.

[RongzomFan]

OK. But seriously consider trying to answer my question.

 

Also, I highly recommend CNN's books, the two I have read are excellent.

 

 

 

The books you read are translated poorly

 

Why not read the best book of ChNN?

 

Its called "Dzogchen Teachings".

[RongzomFan]

It is a powerful symbol (with definite energy), but it is only a symbol and not a guru.

 

Right, but this is again something for those who already had transmission from a guru.

 

[Apech]

Tell me ... does Dzogchen involve having to have the last word?

[RongzomFan]

That is symbol, not a Guru.

 

So we Dzogchenpas have to change our tradition to fit your messed up New Age views?

[Pero]

Tell me ... does Dzogchen involve having to have the last word?

Wellllllllll as a matter of fact, many Dzogchen masters when they die leave a last testament. So I guess you could say it does.

[C T]

It is true that "theoretically" nothing needs to be done. But, that has nothing to do with the Dzogchen/Guru Yoga path. How and why it is "faster"...?

 

 

Not sure what you mean -- 'that has nothing to do with the Dzogchen path'.

 

Seeing the fact that one's mind is indivisible from basic space and then grounding the vision thru constant familiarization practice - basically that is the whole Dzogchen path in a nutshell. Is any other practice swifter?

 

How? - train the mind constantly to resolve pliability and let go of conceptual fixations thru unifying the practices of Shamatha and Vipashyana.

 

Why do people desire to create extensive elaborations and mind games from something so simple is beyond me.

 

I

[RongzomFan]

If one does not "receive" transmission, it is either because they have not yet reached the clarity to do so, or the "transmitter" is not yet a true master, and only a teacher.

 

In Buddhism and Dzogchen, transmission is not dependent on the teacher's realization. Its not mystical like that.

[konchog uma]

Since you can't name a single name either, I call b.s.

 

i can but i wont. i dont care what you think is bs. as you study more widely you will encounter the phenomenon.

[konchog uma]

How it is experienced is dependent on the "clarity" of the recieving person. Most do not have the capacity to consciously percieve the transmission, so the mind unconsciously translates it into a dream. Someone with greater clarity would experience seeing (and possibly hearing) the guru in deep consciousness (or astral). Someone with high clarity would directly receive the knowledge (but would not see anything). In general, those with high levels of clarity do not dream (they have made the unconscious conscious).

 

If one does not "receive" transmission, it is either because they have not yet reached the clarity to do so, or the "transmitter" is not yet a true master, and only a teacher.

 

 

wow i dont think youre speaking as an authority in any dzogchen i have ever come across. this sounds like speculation, or how you personally think it might work. if thats the case you should be more careful with your words. i don't think the view you espouse here is a recognized view.

[konchog uma]

During a Q&A session with his students, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche did equate rigpa with sugatagarbha.

 

Please pm if you want a link to said article.

 

thanks, i don't need a link i have enough to read right now, and i believe you.

 

alwayson said that rigpa equates to vidya, but vidya is knowledge. A quick look at wikipedia shows that whoever wrote that article last equates the two as well. So is vidya conceptual knowledge? because rigpa as buddha-nature is rather a non-conceptual thing, but rigpa as knowledge seems conceptual.

 

The concept of rigpa might embody elements of both of those ideas, or the definition of vidya might be nonconceptual knowledge (in which case "knowledge" is a poor translation), or maybe another as-yet-unconsidered way of understanding it.

 

i have seen it identified as the knowledge that arises from resting in the natural state, and as the natural state itself, the consciousness that remains when the alaya is cast aside and gone beyond. Can anyone clarify this for me, as mentioned i am just starting to understand dzogchen? thank you!

[Jeff]

 

Seeing the fact that one's mind is indivisible from basic space and then grounding the vision thru constant familiarization practice - basically that is the whole Dzogchen path in a nutshell. Is any other practice swifter?

 

How? - train the mind constantly to resolve pliability and let go of conceptual fixations thru unifying the practices of Shamatha and Vipashyana.

 

 

So your position is that Dzogchen is training "the mind constantly to resolve pliability and let go of conceptual fixations"? Sounds like a very logical approach, but how is that different from standard Buddhism? What is the point of a Guru/transmission?

 

[Jeff]

 

wow i dont think youre speaking as an authority in any dzogchen i have ever come across. this sounds like speculation, or how you personally think it might work. if thats the case you should be more careful with your words. i don't think the view you espouse here is a recognized view.

 

My statements above are based on my own personal experiences and discussions with masters of two other primordial paths.

 

[konchog uma]

Hello.

 

According to my research, the common term for this concept in the original sutras is tathagatagarbha, womb of the thus-come-one. The term buddha-dhatu is also used, which more directly translates to buddha nature, or buddha element, and this became the preferred term in China and hence Zen and hence the West. Sugatagarbha is apparently equivalent to tathagatagarbha, but more common in Tantra.

 

Now as far as equivalences, off the top of my head there are several related terms of soteriolgical import in sutra:

Dharmakaya

Dharmata

Tathata

Dharmadhatu

Buddha-dhatu

Tathagatagarbha

Buddha-jnana

Alaya-vijnana

 

To which tantra variously adds:

Sugatagarbha

Mahamudra

Prabhasvara/Osel

Alaya/kungzhi

Rigpa

Gzhi

 

Exactly how all these terms are related to one another seems to vary from one lineage to the next, and even within one lineage different teachers might have slightly different explanations.

 

okay, i know that both sugatagarbha and tathagatagarbha have been used to describe the buddha-nature by various translators and scholars. So while i would like to be most correct, i realize that its kind of hair-splitting from the point of view that we are coming from.

 

i have one questions about all that, which i found helpful btw. I am sure that i have read that the alayavijnana is a state of ignorance. Am i wrong, or is that to be understood in a certain context? Thanks for the clarification sorry for lack of source.

[RongzomFan]

i can but i wont.