Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[C T]

Hello TI,

 

Berzin Archives can be very technical, but is a recognized source for Buddhistic students.

 

Actually, Alan Wallace, who im sure you would find more agreeable, presented a similar view in his Lojong book. I dont think what he wrote is any less complex than what you read in the archives, but i guess we each have our preferential sources. Anyway, here's one excerpt titled 'Establishing the nature of the path in the sphere of the foundation of all'.

 

http://lojongmindtraining.com/Commentary.aspx?author=5&proverb=5

 

 

As i have wrote much earlier, the actual fruit of Dzogchen may be simplicity itself, but getting there to the harvest can be a daunting process.

 

Look back at those experiences you yourself have gone thru and have shared here for other's benefit. You needed those to get to where you are today. I would not entirely dismiss your journey as un-complex. But it was necessary.

 

Likewise, on the road to the pinnacle of Dzogchen, there can happen lots of discussions and twisty talks, but one should not construe these discussions as actual realizations. They aren't.

[Jeff]

http://lojongmindtra...5&proverb=5

.

 

Hi C T (and TI),

 

Thank you for the above link. In my (questionable if Dzogchen like ) experience, forms of practice and meditation are no where near as important as what Lojong describes...

 

"In other words, we are not merely ignorant of the nature of reality but actively, day by day and moment by moment, we are misconstruing the nature of reality. We see things as isolated and intrinsically existing. We reify our own existence and that of friends, loved ones, indifferent people, enemies, the environment itself. And here is the real crux of the matter: this reification is fundamentally out of accord with reality. It creates distortions in the mind and enhances the obscurations that shroud the Buddha nature. In practical terms, it is because of this grasping onto intrinsic reality that a false sense of self arises, as well as the myriad mental distortions that are invariably based on this reification. Jealousy, hatred, resentment, anger, craving, pride, conceit, fear, anxiety - all of these afflictions are based on a misconstruing of reality."

 

The primordial state is found by letting go of "Jealousy, hatred, resentment, anger, craving, pride, conceit, fear, anxiety". Meditation is just something we do to help us see it.

 

 

p.s. I still believe/know that Jesus was a Dzogchen-like master.

 

(edit - missed a "what" that inverted the meaning)

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jeff

[RongzomFan]

You guys are struggling over what trekcho is, but I already gave the technical definition several times.

 

Its the knowledge of the instant of unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind.

[C T]

You guys are struggling over what trekcho is, but I already gave the technical definition several times.

 

Its the knowledge of the instant of unfabricated freshness (ma bcos shes pa skad gcig ma), which is distinguished from the conceptualizing mind.

 

Wow! your wiki knowledge surely is impressive, Alwayson.

[RongzomFan]

Do you know if he uses "alaya" as an abbreviation of alayavijnana, or does he distinguish between these two? In "Stilling the Mind" he emphasized distinguishing alayavijnana and dharamakaya, so maybe he just is using shorter terms for the same concepts?

 

I get the impression that this is nuanced enough for trekcho, but there are further distinctions as you go deeper into Dzogchen. I only mention it because it caused me a lot of confusion to read posts of Malcolm's that distinguished between kun gzhi and gzhi, when every other presentation of Dzogchen I had seen stopped at kun gzhi. I have seen others on the web wonder about this distinction as well. Malcolm mentioned that it was relevant for togel.

 

 

Its not confusing at all. There is the nature of the mind, which is inseparable clarity and emptiness. This is the mirror-like clarity which conversely cannot be found. There are various terms that refer to this.

 

Then in Mennagde, you have the basis (gzhi), which is the five pure lights. Everything is actually the five pure lights, but since we are deluded, we don't see that.

Edited December 17, 2012 by alwayson

[konchog uma]

finished listening to the retreat, its the best i've heard Alan Wallace.

 

I have seen a lot of criticism in amazon reviews of dzogchen books that can be summed up as "i read this book but i still don't understand what dzogchen is!" and i kind of feel that the same thing can be said about this retreat. The Dudjom Rinpoche text (Extracting the Vital Essence of Accomplishment: Direct and Clear Guidance for Practice in a Mountain Retreat) adds a lot of dimension to the practice, but otherwise, it seems like two kinds of shamatha, with and without a sign, in the latter of which one is watching the mind itself. Of course this is coupled with the dzogchen view, which includes the idea that one needs to stop looking for a particular state of mind, and drop all mentality to rest in the natural state, which is everpresently there if only we would just stop what we were "doing" and realize it. That idea actually helped me the most, as i found myself striving to "achieve" the natural state, or recreate it from my experience in the bardo and with essence mahamudra. So i am getting a better understanding of dzogchen, but i still feel like i am missing parts of the puzzle. No doubt i am, in my junior steps into such a complex practice, and as my studies progress i will fill in the spaces that are presently blank.

 

This retreat was helpful as an introduction, in the sense that it opened a door through which i can see that i have a great deal more to learn and practice

 

with that in mind i am open to suggestions about where to take my studies.. so thanks if you have some!

[RongzomFan]

These are the essential Dzogchen components:

 

Direct Introduction

rushan

trekcho

Song of the Vajra

an intellectual understanding of the basis (gzhi)

chulen of space

lhun grub visions

[konchog uma]

thanks alwayson, is that within the DC? are those practices? books? that list doesnt really mean much to me except trekcho and song of vajra, i know what those are. thanks for clarifying

[Jeff]

Hi Anamatva,

 

Do you feel any special connection to any of the Dzogchen teachers? That is an important part of any primordial/guru path.

 

[RongzomFan]

Hi Anamatva,

 

Do you feel any special connection to any of the Dzogchen teachers? That is an important part of any primordial/guru path.

 

 

Stop forcing your views onto Dzogchen. All that is required of a Vajrayana/Dzogchen teacher is authentic lineage.

[Jeff]

Stop forcing your views onto Dzogchen. All that is required of a Vajrayana/Dzogchen teacher is authentic lineage.

 

That they had an authentic lineage was implied. Why would anyone pick anything else?

 

[RongzomFan]

That they had an authentic lineage was implied. Why would anyone pick anything else?

 

There is no need to "feel any special connection".

 

And don't lump Dzogchen in with your " primordial/guru paths."

Edited December 17, 2012 by alwayson

[konchog uma]

@jeff, i feel a draw to learn and practice dzogchen in general. I feel an affinity to ChNNR and also to Ontul Rinpoche (i took refuge under him 12 years ago) who is the yang zab lineage holder (drikung dzogchen). He's not near me, and the closest yang zab group is in Vermont, 12 hours away. So I will just work with the teachings i can find, the only dzogchen sangha near me is Lama Surya Das' and that doesn't appeal to me. I don't feel that you are forcing your views on me, but i am looking more for reading recommendations and teachings that apply within ChNNRs dzogchen community. As far as using my own instincts outside of those parameters, i am just fine, thanks.

 

@alwayson, do you mind clarifying so i can understand your post? thanks

[C T]

Stop forcing your views onto Dzogchen. All that is required of a Vajrayana/Dzogchen teacher is authentic lineage.

 

I disagree with the implications of this statement. Many so-called Vajra/Dzogchen masters, complete with authentic lineages, have been and still are nothing more but unscrupulous business-minded folks who show one face to the public and another in private.

 

And Jeff could not have 'forced' anything even if that was his wish.

 

Be nice if you stop trying so hard to be curt all the time.

Edited December 18, 2012 by C T

[RongzomFan]

Many so-called Vajra/Dzogchen masters, complete with authentic lineages, have been and still are nothing more but unscrupulous business-minded folks who show one face to the public and another in private.

 

There is nothing wrong with capitalism

 

And also name names.

[C T]

There is nothing wrong with capitalism

 

 

Point proven.

[RongzomFan]

???

[C T]

???

 

Do you sympathize with capitalistic tendencies within spiritual circles?

 

Just curious...

[RongzomFan]

Sympathize with capitalisitic tendencies? You are totally losing me here.

 

Are you some sort of communist or something?

[C T]

Sympathize with capitalisitic tendencies? You are totally losing me here.

 

Are you some sort of communist or something?

 

You have a short memory it seems.

[RongzomFan]

You have a short memory it seems.

 

Its possible. So are you a communist?

[C T]

Its possible. So are you a communist?

 

Are you so black and white?

[RongzomFan]

Are you so black and white?

 

When it comes to communism, and their sins against Buddhism, yes I am.

[C T]

When it comes to communism, and their sins against Buddhism, yes I am.

 

Capitalism in Buddhism is causing just as much strife, if not more.

[RongzomFan]

Capitalism in Buddhism is causing just as much strife, if not more.

 

What an absurd claim.

 

The Chinese caused near extinction of Buddhism within China, and fucked up Tibet.

 

Even to this day they are still fucking with Buddhism you know. They force monks to worship Shugden and fly the Chinese flag.