Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[C T]

What an absurd claim.

 

The Chinese caused near extinction of Buddhism within China, and fucked up Tibet.

 

Even to this day they are still fucking with Buddhism you know. They force monks to worship Shugden and fly the Chinese flag.

 

Out of respect for Anamatva, i'm calling 'time out' on this conversation. Deal?

[Tibetan_Ice]

finished listening to the retreat, its the best i've heard Alan Wallace.

 

I have seen a lot of criticism in amazon reviews of dzogchen books that can be summed up as "i read this book but i still don't understand what dzogchen is!" and i kind of feel that the same thing can be said about this retreat. The Dudjom Rinpoche text (Extracting the Vital Essence of Accomplishment: Direct and Clear Guidance for Practice in a Mountain Retreat) adds a lot of dimension to the practice, but otherwise, it seems like two kinds of shamatha, with and without a sign, in the latter of which one is watching the mind itself. Of course this is coupled with the dzogchen view, which includes the idea that one needs to stop looking for a particular state of mind, and drop all mentality to rest in the natural state, which is everpresently there if only we would just stop what we were "doing" and realize it. That idea actually helped me the most, as i found myself striving to "achieve" the natural state, or recreate it from my experience in the bardo and with essence mahamudra. So i am getting a better understanding of dzogchen, but i still feel like i am missing parts of the puzzle. No doubt i am, in my junior steps into such a complex practice, and as my studies progress i will fill in the spaces that are presently blank.

 

This retreat was helpful as an introduction, in the sense that it opened a door through which i can see that i have a great deal more to learn and practice

 

with that in mind i am open to suggestions about where to take my studies.. so thanks if you have some!

 

Hi Anamatva

You sure didn't waste any time getting through the retreat.. I'm at 18 now.

 

Yes, 16 is a good meditation which consists of the pointing out instructions of Padmasambhava. Kind of an oral transmission. Alan Wallace did that in a few other previous retreats, stepping aside and letting Padmasambhava do the instructing by reciting his text, word for word..

 

Funny, the first thing that came to mind when you said, "suggestions about where to take my studies" was, "I'm going to listen to the whole thing one more time." There is so much there that I'm sure I've missed some concepts..

 

For some reason I don't think Alwayson is going to explain what practices he does in any great detail, so I did some research and I discovered some interesting readings along the way.

 

This is a an overview of everything, seems to put it in perspective for me:

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Authors/Dudjom%20Rinpoche/The%20Dzogchen%20View%20of%20Tantra/Dzogchen%20View%20of%20Tantric%20Ngondro.htm

 

This is a very interesting essay by C N Norbu. He says some very interesting things in there, even about guru yoga and mantras..

 

I especially liked it when he said (bolded):

 

link: http://www.melong.com/en/teachings/49-the-song-of-the-vajra.html

When you do the Guruyoga practice with your teacher and old Dzogchen practitioners who have that knowledge, when you work together with them, it helps very much because when we are in that clarity and relaxed in that state, there are no distinctions between those people with knowledge and those without. Even if you do not have much knowledge, it will arise and develop. That is a possibility. This is also transmission. When you apply Guruyoga with the white A in a perfect way with your teacher, you are receiving direct transmission. Of course there are also many different ways for doing direct transmission, but sometimes it is also sufficient with that. And even if we don’t know or discover our real nature, when we apply that method after we have received transmission, then one day we will discover knowledge of our real nature.

In the tantras of Dzogchen teachings, it is explained that if you have received transmission from the teacher, for example, of how to do Guruyoga, with the visualization of the white A and tigle then relaxing, when you try to follow and apply it, you are in this clarity and with this you can discover your real nature. When you apply this many times maybe you can discover your real nature. If you do not realize it, then in the Dzogchen tantras it also says that you should sing the Song of the Vajra.

 

And this is very interesting, the idea of energy points.. Seems C N Norbu has little jems of knowledge that I would love to learn more about:

Energy points

Then at the end of the Song of the Vajra there are ten syllables:

Sasa riri lili ii mimi

which represent ten energy points in our physical body. In the Vajrayana in general, in the Chakrasamvara or sometimes also in the Hevajra tantra, some of these energy waves are explained. For example, that is why when we see the figure of Milarepa he is seated like this. [Rinpoche sits with a raised arm] Some painters don’t understand what it means and the figure has his hand in a kind of military salute, or sometimes closer to the ear. Some teachers do not know what the real sense is and say that Milarepa is listening to all sentient beings. Some people also believe that. But that is not the reason, because if Milarepa had the potentiality to hear all sentient beings he wouldn’t have to put his hand like this [up close to his ear]. This is what you do if you don’t have the capacity to hear very well, so how can you hear all sentient beings with many differences, different dimensions etc.

Milarepa is controlling an energy wave. We have an energy wave here and when we control this energy wave we can get into the state of emptiness easily. For that reason Milarepa is in this position in order to control this wave. His hand is in this position in order to find this energy point, otherwise you cannot find it. Sometimes in yangti practices or in the Dzogchen longde we use a tsulshing [meditation stick] for maintaining the state of our body better. On the top of this stick there is a moon shape so that we can control both of these energy waves. Many vajrayana teachings explain how you should find these waves precisely because sometimes when you touch these points you can feel some nerves beating and if you press them for a long time it may block your circulation and create problems. It is not the energy wave that is beating. So for example when you put your first finger in this place at the front of your ear and put your hand like this, in this position you can find the energy point straight away. When you press that you can find the experience of emptiness easily. Milarepa used that position when he was doing practice, but because they did not know that principle precisely they made paintings of him in a slightly different way.

We not only have points of emptiness. As well as the four energy points of emptiness on the right and left side, we have four points of clarity and two for having more sensation, which are all connected with specific teachings in the upadesa. When we learn these types of practices we can discover what the points are and use them. It is not that we only use the points for pleasure. It is not like that. So these are examples of how the Song of the Vajra is connected with these points.

 

I wonder where I can find more about the upadesa. .. . ..

 

As a matter of fact, there is another little gem in "Dzogchen -The Self-Perfected-State " by C N Norbu about the white light:

 

The practice of contemplation is concisely explained in the line that reads, "but vision nevertheless manifests: all is good."4 Even if the condition of "what is" cannot be grasped with the mind, the whole manifestation of the primordial state, including our karmic vision, does nevertheless exist. All the various aspects of forms, colours, and so on, continue to arise without interruption. When we find ourselves in contemplation, this doesn't mean that our impure vision just disappears and pure vision manifests instead. If we have a physical body, there is a karmic cause for that, so there would be no sense in trying to abandon or deny the situation we find ourselves in. We just need to be aware of it. If we have a vision of the material, physical level of existence, which is the cause of so very many problems, we need to understand that this vision is only the gross aspect of the colours, which are the essence of the elements. Water, for example, is the material manifestation of the colour white, the essence of the element water, which has become what it is for us in its substantial, material form through our karma and our ignorance. When we finally discover the principle of this manifestation into material forms, however, we can reverse the process, so as to cause water to return to its subtle state as luminous essence. The principal means to accomplish this reversal is through contemplation, bringing about the reintegration of one's own energy with that of the material dimension.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (pp. 106-107).

 

I agree, it's the best that I've heard of Allan Wallace too, so far. I wish I had his capacity for language..

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hello TI,

 

Berzin Archives can be very technical, but is a recognized source for Buddhistic students.

 

Actually, Alan Wallace, who im sure you would find more agreeable, presented a similar view in his Lojong book. I dont think what he wrote is any less complex than what you read in the archives, but i guess we each have our preferential sources. Anyway, here's one excerpt titled 'Establishing the nature of the path in the sphere of the foundation of all'.

 

http://lojongmindtra...hor=5&proverb=5

 

 

As i have wrote much earlier, the actual fruit of Dzogchen may be simplicity itself, but getting there to the harvest can be a daunting process.

 

Look back at those experiences you yourself have gone thru and have shared here for other's benefit. You needed those to get to where you are today. I would not entirely dismiss your journey as un-complex. But it was necessary.

 

Likewise, on the road to the pinnacle of Dzogchen, there can happen lots of discussions and twisty talks, but one should not construe these discussions as actual realizations. They aren't.

 

Hi C T

Yes, I'm doing more research and discovering the Dzogchen has a veritable plethora of introductory practices, which include ngondro (massive mantra repetitions), and other techniques to help train and stabilize the mind. I think Allan Wallace calls some of them shamatha practices.. He said that without a clear stable resting mind, realization is fleeting if ever achieved.

 

Thanks for the link. Yes, that is a good essay by Alan Wallace I did notice, however that he contrasts the conceptual with the emptiness of the mind, not rigpa. And, if a person is familiar with Alan Wallace's path to rigpa, one realizes that once a person has succeeded in Shamatha, stilling the mind, the coarse mind dissolves. This is a definite experience, which feels like dying, and filled with fear if one doesn't understand what is going on, and it demarcates the transition into rigpa. He says that the coarse mind shuts off and there is a split second when there is no mind, before the 'subtle' mind takes over. It's like jumping through a dark moment..

 

Alan also spends a few minutes in a few lectures about the people who fool themselves by thinking that they are in rigpa when they sit there, observe their thoughts, the thoughts lessen and there is some space, and they misinterpret the state and tell everyone that they are performing rigpa meditation.. I guess that's sort of what Berzin reminds me of by his liberal usage of the term (no offence).

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

The only essential preliminary for trekcho is rushan.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Oops, the pointing out instructions are actually on 17, from Padmasambhava.

 

18 contains some ways to attain the view.

 

C T, 19 contains a very clear explanation that rigpa is beyond the substrate cosciousness and that you implode into rigpa. This definitely contradicts Berzin's writings. No big deal, but I tend to trust Wallace because I know his training, history and level of understanding. I mean if I have to trust teachings...

 

TI

[C T]

Oops, the pointing out instructions are actually on 17, from Padmasambhava.

 

18 contains some ways to attain the view.

 

C T, 19 contains a very clear explanation that rigpa is beyond the substrate cosciousness and that you implode into rigpa. This definitely contradicts Berzin's writings. No big deal, but I tend to trust Wallace because I know his training, history and level of understanding. I mean if I have to trust teachings...

 

TI

 

That's actually quite a fancy way to describe it, but you're right, its not a big deal.

 

The further one goes, the clearer it gets. Yet, some just dont get it, as noted by Mr Wallace.

 

I guess some do tend to cling to their preferential views more than others. These are probably the same ones who think they are in rigpa, while not realizing there is actually no such thing, what's more, that rigpa is not even a meditation, and, compounded by their own confusion and delusion, undertake very technical attempts to draw up their own dzogchen blueprint. Hopefully they do not implode into that as well, or they may find it quite difficult to later retrace their steps should they realize the deviation.

 

But its all good. With your intelligence and Wallace's infallibility as a teacher, surely you are on the right track, so forgive me for the interjections.

Edited December 18, 2012 by C T

[Apech]

I've listen to many but not all of the recordings and to be honest I'm struggling to get through them. Mr. Wallace, lovely chap that he is, seems very aligned to the Gelugpa and Theravada traditions and to be honest although I am sure his Dzogchen descriptions are accurate in accordance with the text he is using ... I do not feel he is talking from authority.

 

However Dzogchen which seems to popular is not something I feel at all connected with ...

 

@alwayson ... you make me wish I was still a mod ... you really do.

[Jetsun]

If you guys want something simpler try the technique of Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, who is considered one of the greatest Dzogchen masters of recent generations:

 

 

Simply breathe in as you raise your arms.

Then exhale sharply as you drop your arms.

Does that sound too easy?

Perhaps.

 

But in that moment of dropping, you can actually experience a sense

of wide-openness, a gap in which there is no separation between experience

and experiencer, no solidity, no judgment. Rest in that gap for as

long-or as briefly as it lasts. Don't try to extend it or hang onto it.

Simply let it occur, and let it go

 

- p.191 Tsoknyi Rinpoche "Open Heart Open Mind"

[C T]

If you guys want something simpler try the technique of Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, who is considered one of the greatest Dzogchen masters of recent generations:

 

 

Simply breathe in as you raise your arms.

Then exhale sharply as you drop your arms.

Does that sound too easy?

Perhaps.

 

But in that moment of dropping, you can actually experience a sense

of wide-openness, a gap in which there is no separation between experience

and experiencer, no solidity, no judgment. Rest in that gap for as

long-or as briefly as it lasts. Don't try to extend it or hang onto it.

Simply let it occur, and let it go

 

- p.191 Tsoknyi Rinpoche "Open Heart Open Mind"

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

Yes it can be that simple.

 

Its so simple that it becomes so easy to miss it altogether.

 

I have great great devotion to Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche. Thanks for quoting him.

[konchog uma]

Oops, the pointing out instructions are actually on 17, from Padmasambhava.

 

 

by far my favorite track just on a feeling level.. it was read throughout a mediation session as a sort of guide too, which gives it more impact or emphasis or something intangible..

 

im going to listen to it again

[konchog uma]

The only essential preliminary for trekcho is rushan.

 

finally found rushan (its not a chinese cheese) and i do that all the time. im crazy.

 

why do you bother to give a list of obscure topics and then not post a link or a source, or respond to requests for clarification.. not much help really. seems youre better at talking shit.

 

you could at least say "no im too busy talking shit on everything and everyone to help you right now".. have some manners sir

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

You sure didn't waste any time getting through the retreat.. I'm at 18 now.

 

im not working full-time right now, so i have a lot of free time.

 

Funny, the first thing that came to mind when you said, "suggestions about where to take my studies" was, "I'm going to listen to the whole thing one more time." There is so much there that I'm sure I've missed some concepts..

 

there are a couple tracks (like 17) that i could listen to endlessly, but i find myself kinda hungry for more traditional sources, like the classic literature and writings from tibetan masters. Nothing against BAWallace thats just what arises in me at present.

 

For some reason I don't think Alwayson is going to explain what practices he does in any great detail, so I did some research and I discovered some interesting readings along the way.

 

thanks. i love when people think they are practiced buddhists but they can't show an ordinary virtue like basic helpfulness. halarious.. thank you for all your help, im reading those links after i type this

 

blessings

[RongzomFan]

finally found rushan (its not a chinese cheese) and i do that all the time. im crazy.

 

why do you bother to give a list of obscure topics and then not post a link or a source, or respond to requests for clarification.. not much help really. seems youre better at talking shit.

 

you could at least say "no im too busy talking shit on everything and everyone to help you right now".. have some manners sir

 

Actually the reason is the Christian parable:

 

http://bible.cc/matthew/7-6.htm

[konchog uma]

Actually the reason is the Christian parable:

 

http://bible.cc/matthew/7-6.htm

 

belittling others is the first root downfall, i don't really see the point

 

interestingly as it relates to your case, refusing to share dharma teachings is the second root downfall, and holding an antagonistic outlook is the ninth root downfall.

Edited December 19, 2012 by anamatva

[C T]

Hi Anamatva,

 

Posting a link here which i think you will find helpful at some stage on your path.

 

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/nyala-pema-duddul/signs-practice-penetrating-mind

[konchog uma]

thanks CT

 

from Tibetan_Ice's link to Dudjom Rinpoche's Dzogchen View of Tantric Ngondro

If you really look into your experience of existence with the eye of meditation, you begin to see everything as the play of emptiness. Phenomena [as referential co-ordinates] become exhausted and you finally arrive at their essential nature, which is emptiness. But, having said this, you might be led to say: 'In that case we should not need anything'. But whether you need anything or not is up to you. It simply depends on your mind! Just dryly talking of emptiness is not enough! You must actualize it and then see for yourself. If your mind is really empty of referential manipulation, then there is no hope, no fear, no negativity -- your mind is free of that! It is like waving your hand in the sky! Whatever arises is completely unobstructed.

 

The purpose of meditation is to remain in this natural state. In that state all phenomena are directly realized in their essential emptiness. That is why we practice meditation. Meditation purifies everything into its empty nature. First we must realize that the absolute, natural state of things is empty. Then, whatever manifests is the play of the dharmakaya. Out of the empty nature of existence arise all the relative manifestations from which we fabricate samsara. You need to understand quite clearly how things are in reality and how they appear in terms of duality. It is very important to have this View, because without View your meditation becomes dull. Just simply sitting and saying: 'It's all empty' is like putting a little cup upside-down! That little empty space in the cup remains a very narrow, limited emptiness. You cannot even drink tea from it!

 

It is essential to actually know the heart of the matter as it is. In the absolute sense there are no sentient beings who experience dissatisfaction. This dissatisfaction is as empty as the clear sky, but because of attachment to the form display of emptiness, [interdependent origination] the relative sphere of things becomes an illusory trap in which there are sentient beings who experience dissatisfaction. This is the meaning of samsara.

 

In expressing the essential quality of the Great Mother, emptiness, it is said: 'Though you think of expressing the nature of the Heart Sutra you cannot put it into words'. It is totally beyond utterance, beyond thought, beyond concept. It was never born. It has never died. If you ask what it is like, it is like the sky. You can never find the limit of the sky. You can never find the center of the sky. So this sky-like nature is symbolic of emptiness: it is spacious, limitless, and free, with infinite depth and infinite expanse.

 

But having said this, you might say: 'So my own rigpa, the nature of my own mind, is like the sky, free from all limitations'. But this is not it either! It is not just empty. If you look into it there is something to see. 'See' is just a word we have to use in order to communicate. But you can see that. You can meditate on that. You can rest in that, and whatever arises in that spacious condition. If you see the true nature of emptiness and form as non-dual -- as it really is -- this is the mother of all the Buddhas. All this chatter has been an elaboration of the absolute chang-chub-sem.

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva,

 

Posting a link here which i think you will find helpful at some stage on your path.

 

http://www.lotsawaho...enetrating-mind

 

thanks CT. that looks like an interesting site.

 

my preliminaries are slowly penetrating happy to say

[C T]

thanks CT

 

from Tibetan_Ice's link to Dudjom Rinpoche's Dzogchen View of Tantric Ngondro

 

I was introduced to the great teachings of Dudjom Rinpoche back in 1996, and till today i am still practicing his Dudjom Tersar Ngondro.

 

One advice which he gave to students really stuck with me all these years.

 

He said, "Do not meditate to arrive at a conclusion. If you meditate that way, it becomes intellectual activity. Here (meaning in Dzogchen) there is no object of meditation whatsoever nor even an instant of distraction. Distraction from resting in natural awareness is true delusion. Dont be distracted!

 

Whatever thoughts arise, let them arise. Do not follow after them nor suppress them.

 

However, many teachings considered to be very deep or extremely vast have left individuals of lesser intelligence mystified. If I put my finger on the concise essential meaning, it is this: In the gap between the last thought's cessation and the next's arising, isn't there a fresh, pristine knowing that has not been modified even in the slightest --- luminous, naked awareness? That itself is awareness's abiding state.

 

However, this state at the beginning (of one's Dzogchen practice) does not last, and before long, another thought arises, doesn't it? This is the natural display of the same awareness, so simply let it manifest without doing anything to alter its arising. Letting it arise means there is recognition. If there is no recognition, then that thought which arise will spread, naturally. This is called the 'chain of delusion', which is the root of samsara.

 

Simple recognition of thoughts as they arise breaks their flow.

 

Release thoughts within that recognition. When you are able to remain in that state, arising thoughts will all be liberated equally within awareness, the expanse of dharmakaya.

 

This is the main practice in which the View and Meditation of cutting through solidity are cultivated as one."

 

 

 

ps ~ the thought that you are making steady progress with the purification/prelim practices really warms my heart. Keep at it, my friend. Its a true blessing to hear of such wonderful devotion to the Buddhadharma.

 

_/\_

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was introduced to the great teachings of Dudjom Rinpoche back in 1996, and till today i am still practicing his Dudjom Tersar Ngondro.

 

One advice which he gave to students really stuck with me all these years.

 

He said, "Do not meditate to arrive at a conclusion. If you meditate that way, it becomes intellectual activity. Here (meaning in Dzogchen) there is no object of meditation whatsoever nor even an instant of distraction. Distraction from resting in natural awareness is true delusion. Dont be distracted!

 

Whatever thoughts arise, let them arise. Do not follow after them nor suppress them.

 

However, many teachings considered to be very deep or extremely vast have left individuals of lesser intelligence mystified. If I put my finger on the concise essential meaning, it is this: In the gap between the last thought's cessation and the next's arising, isn't there a fresh, pristine knowing that has not been modified even in the slightest --- luminous, naked awareness? That itself is awareness's abiding state.

 

However, this state at the beginning (of one's Dzogchen practice) does not last, and before long, another thought arises, doesn't it? This is the natural display of the same awareness, so simply let it manifest without doing anything to alter its arising. Letting it arise means there is recognition. If there is no recognition, then that thought which arise will spread, naturally. This is called the 'chain of delusion', which is the root of samsara.

 

Simple recognition of thoughts as they arise breaks their flow.

 

Release thoughts within that recognition. When you are able to remain in that state, arising thoughts will all be liberated equally within awareness, the expanse of dharmakaya.

 

This is the main practice in which the View and Meditation of cutting through solidity are cultivated as one."

 

 

 

ps ~ the thought that you are making steady progress with the purification/prelim practices really warms my heart. Keep at it, my friend. Its a true blessing to hear of such wonderful devotion to the Buddhadharma.

 

_/\_

 

Hi C. T.

Where did you get that quote?

I found a similar one here:

link: http://archive.thebu...ing/dudjom.html

But one does not permanently abide within the nature of reality. Doesn’t a thought suddenly arise? That is the natural display of awareness. However, if you do not recognize thoughts as soon as they arise, they will naturally spread. This is called “the chain of delusion,” the root of samsara. Mere recognition of thoughts as they arise breaks their flow. Release thoughts within that recognition. When you remain in that state, arising thoughts will all be liberated equally within awareness, the expanse of dharmakaya. This is the main practice in which the view and meditation of Cutting Through Solidity, Trekchö, are cultivated as one.

 

Now, I'm going to very picky here. Alan Wallace does talk about that technique in one of his podcasts, I think it was Spring of 2011... He said that you wait, like a cat watching a mouse hole, and as soon as a thought pops up, you snip it. And, you keep doing that continuously.. It is a viable technique, to recognize thoughts at the moment of birth and snip them. But, he also says that the danger of doing such a practice is that you are "doing" something and also you can become tense while doing it. So it does not really produce shamatha.

 

 

Have you considered that perhaps the idea that "Simple recognition of thoughts as they arise breaks their flow. " does break the flow, but the act of recognition is disturbing the steady fixed stream of knowing? It is similar to trying to calm or stop the mind with mantra.

 

In other words, it is a form of noting. And noting is not true Dzogchen for a number of reasons. Noting takes effort. And, if you have ever have watched your thoughts, the thoughts come from different locations. So, you are always bending and twisting your attention around trying to focus on the thoughts. The latest instructions by Alan Wallace say that "one has to keep the Knowing stable and continuous.

 

So, although the cat-watching-hole-technique is very useful, because it trains you to focus on your thoughts and snip them before they bloom, there are more refined techniques, which more closely approach the true "Let it be".

 

Alan Wallace mentions a second slightly more advanced technique. It is compared to a crow flying up into the sky from a boat in the middle of the ocean. The crow (thought) takes flight, and seeing no where to land, eventually comes back to the ship and returns to where it once rested. The point is this: if you do absolutely nothing with the thought, it will dissolve on it's own. There is no need to note the thought. No need to recognize the thought. If you don't give the thought any energy, it will dissolve on it's own. If you don't avert the thought either, it will dissolve on it's own.

 

It's a little subtler technique than the one mentioned by Dudjom Rinpoche in those quotes. I think what Alan Wallace is pointing out is that the idea that when Dujom Rinpoche says "However, if you do not recognize thoughts as soon as they arise, they will naturally spread.", it is not quite right, or perhaps it is a good introductory practice. The premise being: If you do not give the thought any energy, instead of 'spreading', the thought simply dissolves. Big difference there.. If thoughts ignored actually did spread, we'd have a huge mushroom cloud of thoughts to contend with at the end of every day, wouldn't we?

 

I have tried both techniques. The first technique (cat at the hole) left me hyper and feeling like I was a hunter looking for the next target. I did not accomplish much except that I did recognize that before the mind speaks out a thought, the meaning of the thought is manifested at a deeper level. The second technique was the big one for me. Making a relaxed effort to just remain in a state of not grasping or averting thoughts produced a state whereby the thoughts eventually stopped and then the coarse mind dissolved. The subtler mind dissolved too. The golden light of awareness shrank down, the big black came and I thought I was dying.. !

 

If you have much experience with the first technique, I would suggest trying the second technique. Strive to keep a stream of knowing and just let the thoughts be. Don't even try to note them. Don't try not to note them either.. See what happens..

 

What I did was pick a thought, focus on the part of the mind that "knows" the thought (see the golden light). It is closer to the feeling of "I" in the center of the head by the medulla. Then, wait and watch the thought dissolve. The next major thought that arises, look directly at it, know it, then wait and watch it dissolve. I do this first to center myself in the part of the "I" that knows. Once centered in that place, remain in that area, the golden light that knows, and just ignore all thoughts by letting them be, no averting or grasping. . Remain there. Don't move your attention. Maintain a steady stream of knowing. The golden light will eventually collapse downward towards the heart. You should also see a 'big black' coming at you from above. The feeling of "I" will lose it's footing, it's quite a pronounced feeling. The levels of consciousness will collapse. That is the point where I am at and can't get past..

 

Oh, I was going to mention, Alan Wallace is not infallible. Nobody is infallible. And, really I'm not that intelligent. I'm just dedicated.

 

If you do decide to try the second tecnique, I would love to hear how it turns out.

 

TI

Edited December 19, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi C T

Just finished reading that Dudjom Rinpoche text..

You know, he does say that too, about noting thoughts or focusing directly on them, and does suggest that at first, one should look directly at the thought. But it is a preliminary practice "until you perfect higher insight's sublte power".

 

A famous saying advises, “Do not reject thoughts; see them as dharmakaya.” However, until you perfect higher insight’s subtle power, you might dwell upon the thought, “This is probably dharmakaya!” and remain in a blank state of peaceful abiding. You thus risk getting trapped in a spaced-out, indifferent, unreflective state. Therefore, in the beginning look directly at whatever thoughts arise; do not examine, analyze or reflect upon them at all. Rest upon the recognizer of thoughts, without making it a big deal, disinterested in what arises, like an old man watching children at play.

 

Once you’ve placed your mind as I described, the deepening of the experience of stillness in a non-conceptual natural state will be suddenly, abruptly destroyed. At that instant, primordial wisdom beyond mind will nakedly and clearly manifest.

 

It is also so interesting that he says " the experience of stillness in a non-conceptual natural state will be suddenly, abruptly destroyed" !!! Yes, it all implodes, feels like death, much fear and the big black.. and rigpa (primordial non-state) is on the other side of that.

 

SO CLOSE YET SO FAR..

 

TI

Edited December 19, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Apech]

Hi C T

Just finished reading that Dudjom Rinpoche text..

You know, he does say that too, about noting thoughts or focusing directly on them, and does suggest that at first, one should look directly at the thought. But it is a preliminary practice "until you perfect higher insight's sublte power".

 

 

 

It is also so interesting that he says " the experience of stillness in a non-conceptual natural state will be suddenly, abruptly destroyed" !!! Yes, it all implodes, feels like death, much fear and the big black.. and rigpa (primordial non-state) is on the other side of that.

 

SO CLOSE YET SO FAR..

 

TI

 

Always close and never far ...

Big black is good ... much joy to you ....

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

If you don't mind, a suggestion for your "cat in the hole" technique. Try to catch the thought before it consciously begins to form (sometimes called the pre-intent of the thought). A little further back than you described, it is almost like a little door to the "light" is opened (initiating the creation stage). With awareness, you can learn to keep the door open for a while. Your second technique is like "diving in", this modification to your first is more like sticking your toes in the water.

 

[konchog uma]

 

ps ~ the thought that you are making steady progress with the purification/prelim practices really warms my heart. Keep at it, my friend. Its a true blessing to hear of such wonderful devotion to the Buddhadharma.

 

_/\_

 

CT,

 

thanks for the dudjom rinpoche quote. I feel compelled to read texts by him. and thank you for the kind words about ngondro it is good, i feel it softening me.

[konchog uma]

Now, I'm going to very picky here. Alan Wallace does talk about that technique in one of his podcasts, I think it was Spring of 2011... He said that you wait, like a cat watching a mouse hole, and as soon as a thought pops up, you snip it. And, you keep doing that continuously.. It is a viable technique, to recognize thoughts at the moment of birth and snip them. But, he also says that the danger of doing such a practice is that you are "doing" something and also you can become tense while doing it. So it does not really produce shamatha.

 

Hi TI, just wanted to chime in and say that while i have seen that instruction in a number of places, i find it very draining to maintain over any length of time. Standing in the middle of the town square like the sheriff with my guns out, waiting for thoughts so i can shoot them down just makes me feel tense and grumpy after a while.. and as you point out later in that post, it doesn't really stop the thoughts as well as just relaxing into a presence which is neither grasping or rejecting thoughts and just letting them quiet down over time. So that has been my experience too.

[konchog uma]

TI have you read the Alan Wallace book Stilling Your Mind? I am kind of into it because it references a Dudjom Lingpa text but kind of not because it only references the beginning of the text. I trust Wallace to know what's relevant, but i wondered if you thought that the book was watered down or something like that.

 

I am a beginner, so perhaps it would be totally appropriate to me.

 

I just received The Dzogchen Primer edited by Marcia Binder Schmidt in the mail today, and there isn't much dzogchen in it so far. But i only paid a dollar for it so i'm not really concerned.

 

Also interesting to me is the book Steve listed, Buddhahood Without Meditation: A Visionary Account Known As Refining Apparent Phenomen by Dudjom Lingpa and A Clear Mirror, Lingpa's autobiography, which Wallace mentions as being mindblowing in the later part of the retreat.

 

of all the Dudjom Rinpoche books that i feel drawn to, i think Wisdom Nectar: Dudjom Rinpoche's Heart Advice is the one i will start out with. Going to finish Reggie Ray's Vajra Secret which i am on page 400 or so of, and peruse Dzogchen Primer (which i do not have high hopes for) and then finish Perfect Clarity, which i am halfway through... then will have a space to start reading more traditional dzogchen material. If anyone has suggestions (has anyone read Flight of the Garuda by Dowman?) i would love to hear them..

 

blessings

 

edit: also Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen... also translated by Dowman.

does anyone have any feedback on any of these texts?

Edited December 20, 2012 by anamatva