Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

If you don't mind, a suggestion for your "cat in the hole" technique. Try to catch the thought before it consciously begins to form (sometimes called the pre-intent of the thought). A little further back than you described, it is almost like a little door to the "light" is opened (initiating the creation stage). With awareness, you can learn to keep the door open for a while. Your second technique is like "diving in", this modification to your first is more like sticking your toes in the water.

 

Hi Jeff,

Actually, I kind of mind. First off, these are not my techniques. Secondly, you are suggesting something which is an active practice, which is not a process of letting be, and, which is a process of mistaking the subconscious mind as "further back".

Had you done any extensive disciplined meditation, you would realize that although thoughts are easily recognizable in the conscious mind, the subconscious mind contains thousands of thoughts. The pre-intent area of the your understanding of mind is really the subconscious. If you had attained a modicum of clarity, you should have seen this rather than suggest that I go further back.

To be quite honest, I find that talking to you is a waste of time. And, I also resent the fact that you pose as someone who understands the deep intricacies of meditation, when you all you do is play with energy, have no regular practices, and quote from sources you have no true understanding of. I also deeply resent the fact that you cannot see the dammage that AYP is doing to people and even support their misguided practices by suggesting to people on the AYP forum that they continue their "I AM" mantra repetition, like you know best.

 

link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12256#105142

Hi Rinaldo,

 

I would agree that the I am mediation is very effective and powerful. Twice daily is definitely the way to go.

 

Mindfulness (or staying present in the moment) can be an effective addition to your daily life. I have found even simple things like asking myself, "Jeff, are you here" and responding "yes, I am here" periodically through the day can help cut through the drama of the mind.

 

 

 

Had you understood my arguments that I presented against AYP, you would no longer be supporting AYP.

And please do not tell me that they are your friends there. If you were their friends, you would help them instead of help bury them. Evidently, you do not underestand that Yogani is promoting laxity which is a detriment to intelligence.

Please do not correspond with me in the future, I have no interest in wasting my time or feeding your endless misunderstandings of concepts and spiritual practices.

 

Thank you.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

TI have you read the Alan Wallace book Stilling Your Mind? I am kind of into it because it references a Dudjom Lingpa text but kind of not because it only references the beginning of the text. I trust Wallace to know what's relevant, but i wondered if you thought that the book was watered down or something like that.

 

Hi Anamatva

Yes, I have "Stilling The Mind" by Alan Wallace. I thought it was a good book. Alan takes Dudjom LIngpa's teachings, paragraph by paragraph and expands on each one. It is very profound and deep. Towards the end of the book, Alan wrote a section on "Signs of Progress". And, when you read them, you would swear that they are more like bad things you run into along the path. For example, one sign of progress is "the impression that all your thoughts are wreaking havoc in your body, speech and mind, like boulders rolling down a steep mountain, crushing and destroying everything in the path". Or, "such unbearable misery that you think your heart will burst". Or, "the emergence, one after another, of all kinds of thoughts stemming from the mental afflictions of the five poisons, so that you must pursue them, as painful as this may be."

The last chapter contains a section on "Pitfalls", which is quite informative.

 

And, of course, throughout the whole book, as in his retreats, he emphasizes the importance of shamatha. Without shamatha, you have nothing.

 

I would definately recommend this book.

 

I would also recommend his "Mind in a Balance" and his "The Attention Revolution", not only for a recap of the basics, but for the neat little exercises that he has for working with awareness and resting the mind. There is one practice of moving the attention around the body which I try to do every day. It really settles the mind and is a great preliminary practice before meditation.

 

Yes "A Clear Mirror" sounds good. I've just ordered it.

 

I have "Perfect Clarity". Have yet to start reading it. (just not enough time in a day)

I also have Alan Wallace's latest book called "Dreaming Yourself Awake". http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/159030957X but I haven't opened it yet, just skimmed it.. It looks interesting.

 

I would definitely recommend "The Flight of the Garuda" by K Dowman.

 

If you haven't read it, I would also strongly recommend "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" because it describes the practices of Trekcho and Togel. You might be shocked at what is said about Trekcho. It is an absolute reductionist view of Bon Dzogchen. This book also presents the Bardo state and how to use it properly.

 

If you are a voracious reader, I would recommend the classic Buddhist Meditation Manual. It is a really BIG book (853 pages) and it is free: http://www.accesstoi...ication2011.pdf but it is packed. A little hard to read, but it contains things nobody else talks about.

 

Other books I have found value in are:

Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State - C N Norbu

Vivid Awareness, The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar, Khenchen Thrangu

 

My motto is "practice before pleasure" and reading is such a great pleasure!

 

Wow, that last podcast by Alan Wallace about the rainbow bodies is phenomenal. I didn't know that there was a rainbow body with which the practitioner simply goes "pop" and turns into a trail of light while still alive.

 

TI

Edited December 20, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

No problem. I will not make any further such suggestions. I just thought you might find the refinement to the technique helpful. As you said, it was just something I was taught/learned while playing in the light.

 

Regarding my above AYP post... I think that if you look at it in context, you will see that I am suggesting an extension (or contrary) from the normal AYP process. I believe staying focused in moment is a very valuable practice. If one learns to do that, they realize that all of life is the same as meditation.

 

Best wishes on your path.

 

[C T]

 

If you do decide to try the second tecnique, I would love to hear how it turns out.

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

Picky is good. After all, we need to be very cautious not to confuse techniques with realizations.

 

In Dzogchen (the Dzogchen that i understand, at least), techniques (i prefer the term 'practices') come after being shown one's true mind nature.

 

Some are inclined towards the idea that, after introduction, one must perform all sorts of yogic exercises in order to ascend further up the gradient to reach 'rigpa', but i have been taught that that's not the case. Hence, i'd disagree with your proposition that Rigpa is 'on the other side'.

 

Some practitioners (like me, due to much obscurations) have to work hard to stabilize the rigpa mind. This, however, is not a prerequisite. Other more fortunate and karmically endowed practitioners simply return the mind again and again to that instant of recognition, and practice nothing else. When questioned, the answer given is, since Dzogchen is the Great Perfection, or Great Completion, it transcends ritual and symbol, therefore, one can choose either to pursue practices, or, return the mind 'home' to rest each time one notices discursive or distractive mental movements.

 

Many learned Dzogchen teachers say both are valid approaches, but should be careful not to feed the thought that Rigpa is anything other that what is already so, and no amount of 'doing' can make it more 'such'.

 

Furthermore, in Dzogchen, the union of wisdom and clarity/cognizance is the union of shamatha and vipassana. Focussing on shamatha creates the possibility of an incomplete realization, but its just a possibility.... like i said, for the fortunate sons and daughters who are karmically endowed, there is always room to disregard general advice given.

Edited December 20, 2012 by C T

[Jeff]

 

Hi TI,

 

Picky is good. After all, we need to be very cautious not to confuse techniques with realizations.

 

In Dzogchen (the Dzogchen that i understand, at least), techniques (i prefer the term 'practices') come after being shown one's true mind nature.

 

Some are inclined towards the idea that, after introduction, one must perform all sorts of yogic exercises in order to ascend further up the gradient to reach 'rigpa', but i have been taught that that's not the case. Hence, i'd disagree with your proposition that Rigpa is 'on the other side'.

 

Some practitioners (like me, due to much obscurations) have to work hard to stabilize the rigpa mind. This, however, is not a prerequisite. Other more fortunate and karmically endowed practitioners simply return the mind again and again to that instant of recognition, and practice nothing else. When questioned, the answer given is, since Dzogchen is the Great Perfection, or Great Completion, it transcends ritual and symbol, therefore, one can choose either to pursue practices, or, return the mind 'home' to rest each time one notices discursive or distractive mental movements.

 

Many learned Dzogchen teachers say both are valid approaches, but should be careful not to feed the thought that Rigpa is anything other that what is already so, and no amount of 'doing' can make it more 'such'.

 

Furthermore, in Dzogchen, the union of wisdom and clarity/cognizance is the union of shamatha and vipassana. Focussing on shamatha creates the possibility of an incomplete realization, but its just a possibility.... like i said, for the fortunate sons and daughters who are karmically endowed, there is always room to disregard general advice given.

 

Thank you for the excellent post. It is very helpful.

 

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

Yes, I have "Stilling The Mind" by Alan Wallace. I thought it was a good book. Alan takes Dudjom LIngpa's teachings, paragraph by paragraph and expands on each one. It is very profound and deep. Towards the end of the book, Alan wrote a section on "Signs of Progress". And, when you read them, you would swear that they are more like bad things you run into along the path. For example, one sign of progress is "the impression that all your thoughts are wreaking havoc in your body, speech and mind, like boulders rolling down a steep mountain, crushing and destroying everything in the path". Or, "such unbearable misery that you think your heart will burst". Or, "the emergence, one after another, of all kinds of thoughts stemming from the mental afflictions of the five poisons, so that you must pursue them, as painful as this may be."

The last chapter contains a section on "Pitfalls", which is quite informative.

And, of course, throughout the whole book, as in his retreats, he emphasizes the importance of shamatha. Without shamatha, you have nothing.

I would definately recommend this book.

 

TI, thank you so much my friend, such a helpful post. I Greatly appreciate you taking the time to comment and point out all those resources! wow...

 

when i was in retreat last month i felt that my thoughts were the enemy, that they were destroying my meditation! i perfectly well know better, and thought it was rather odd to find such a view taking hold in my mind. I have also in the past encountered heartbreak for no reason! i chalked all this up to astrological alignments, or lack of sleep, but its interesting to see them listed as signs of progress. My curiosity is roused, and i intend to read that book.

 

One of the affinities i find with Wallace is his deep respect for shamatha. There is a tragic movement (i think moreso in the west) to beeline for advanced practices and for the initiated, to "collect tantras" as Trungpa Rinpoche put it... i have met people who, when i tell them i will be leading a shamatha meditation, say to me "oh, no. i sit vipassana!" with some kind of attitude like shamatha is for babies. All the traditional teachers who i have ever heard talk about it advocate regular and sustained shamatha practice, and i feel good knowing that BAWallace has thrown his lot in with the traditionalists.

 

I would also recommend his "Mind in a Balance" and his "The Attention Revolution", not only for a recap of the basics, but for the neat little exercises that he has for working with awareness and resting the mind. There is one practice of moving the attention around the body which I try to do every day. It really settles the mind and is a great preliminary practice before meditation.

 

Yes "A Clear Mirror" sounds good. I've just ordered it.

 

thanks (again ) i have never read him, just listened to his retreats.. i think i will start with Stilling the Mind tho, i feel drawn to it

 

I have "Perfect Clarity". Have yet to start reading it. (just not enough time in a day)

I also have Alan Wallace's latest book called "Dreaming Yourself Awake". http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/159030957X but I haven't opened it yet, just skimmed it.. It looks interesting.

 

wow i used to lucid dream almost every night, before i started experimenting with cannabis. Since i stopped smoking, i have been meaning to get back into it, that book might be just what i have been looking for! Awesome

 

Other books I have found value in are:

Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State - C N Norbu

Vivid Awareness, The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar, Khenchen Thrangu

 

My motto is "practice before pleasure" and reading is such a great pleasure!

 

Wow, that last podcast by Alan Wallace about the rainbow bodies is phenomenal. I didn't know that there was a rainbow body with which the practitioner simply goes "pop" and turns into a trail of light while still alive.

 

 

a lot of people recommend that Norbu book, its on my list, and thank you again for all those recommendations and helpful advices.

 

yes his explanation of rainbow bodies was illuminating for me too.. i had read about a woman who was intruded upon in the 5th day of her 7 day rainbow body process and it was said that her arms and legs were cast about, not connected to her body, but there was no blood, just light and rainbows coming out of her joints and going everywhere... and i have also read about a tibetan under house arrest who was reported by chinese authorities to by tiny like a child when they checked on him, and that freaked them out, so they went back a week later with a team and all they found was hair and fingernails. So i found that confusing until Wallace explained the 3 kinds of rainbow passing. Awesome stuff.

 

Didn't Wallace say that only Padmasambhava and Garab Dorje and maybe a handful of others since have attained the "pop" you describe?

 

many blessings TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Anamatva

Didn't Wallace say that only Padmasambhava and Garab Dorje and maybe a handful of others since have attained the "pop" you describe?

 

Yes, I believe he said that. It kind of reminds me of the stories I've read about Hindu gurus who have manifested their bodies into far away locations, or transported themselves over great distances. I'll bet they just turned into the rainbow body and then back to physical at the target location. I think there is much more to all of this than just realizing rainbow body at the time of death.

He also said that there have been 13 occurences of rainbow bodies from one Dzogchen master's students just recently.. !!!

 

What is great about Alan Wallace is that he has levels of shamatha practice based on your mind-set at the time. If your mind is very coarse and scattered, you do shamatha/watching the breath at the navel because it is easiest to focus on gross movements. If you have some modicum of peace, you can practice watching the breath at the upper lip. If you are really settled and bright, you can switch to awareness of awareness practices, watching the mind etc.. So it is not one practice fits all, but you get to do your own assessment and proceed accordingly.

 

 

TI

[thetaoiseasy]

Hi,

 

Can anyone describe to me what a "rainbow body" is, as defined by Dzogchen?

 

Thanks

[konchog uma]

there's a wiki page on it, check it out, says it better than i could

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body

[konchog uma]

 

He also said that there have been 13 occurences of rainbow bodies from one Dzogchen master's students just recently.. !!!

 

 

the master who wasn't recognized as anyone, who had no great education or flowery title, just a bum... thats awesome

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

Picky is good. After all, we need to be very cautious not to confuse techniques with realizations.

 

In Dzogchen (the Dzogchen that i understand, at least), techniques (i prefer the term 'practices') come after being shown one's true mind nature.

 

Some are inclined towards the idea that, after introduction, one must perform all sorts of yogic exercises in order to ascend further up the gradient to reach 'rigpa', but i have been taught that that's not the case. Hence, i'd disagree with your proposition that Rigpa is 'on the other side'.

 

Some practitioners (like me, due to much obscurations) have to work hard to stabilize the rigpa mind. This, however, is not a prerequisite. Other more fortunate and karmically endowed practitioners simply return the mind again and again to that instant of recognition, and practice nothing else. When questioned, the answer given is, since Dzogchen is the Great Perfection, or Great Completion, it transcends ritual and symbol, therefore, one can choose either to pursue practices, or, return the mind 'home' to rest each time one notices discursive or distractive mental movements.

 

Many learned Dzogchen teachers say both are valid approaches, but should be careful not to feed the thought that Rigpa is anything other that what is already so, and no amount of 'doing' can make it more 'such'.

 

Furthermore, in Dzogchen, the union of wisdom and clarity/cognizance is the union of shamatha and vipassana. Focussing on shamatha creates the possibility of an incomplete realization, but its just a possibility.... like i said, for the fortunate sons and daughters who are karmically endowed, there is always room to disregard general advice given.

 

Hi C T

I can see we have different opinions on this matter.

I am not saying that rigpa is on the other side, Alan Wallace is saying that. On many occaisions. In no uncertain terms. As a matter of fact he even has a podcast where he sings "Break on through to the other side", like the popular 70's song.

And, to Alan Wallace and his writings from several prominant masters, they all say the same thing. You can't miss rigpa. It is an implosion, an event whereby you are no longer, and Primordial Ground is realized.

 

 

Here are some of Alan Wallace's quotes:

http://podcasts.sbinstitute.com/fall2012/

Shamatha helps you sustain lucidity. Vipasyana counters our ingrained tendency to reify everything. When you break through the substrate consciousness to primordial consciousness, the instruction is similar: don’t lose the recognition by sustaining the view of rigpa. There is nothing else to do.

 

Does this sound like your introduction to Primordial Ground?

link: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Trekch%C3%B6

Trekchö is translated as ‘thoroughly cutting through’ (resistance, stubbornness, toughness and closedness), or ‘breakthrough’. The practice of trekchö reveals the view of primordial purity beyond conceptual elaboration (kadak trödral).

Sogyal Rinpoche writes: Trekchö means cutting through delusion with fierce, direct thoroughness. Essentially delusion is cut through with the irresistible force of the view of rigpa, like a knife cleaving through butter or a karate expert demolishing a pile of bricks. The whole fantastical edifice of delusion collapses, as if you were blasting its keystone away. Delusion is cut through, and the primordial purity and natural simplicity of the nature of mind is laid bare.^[2]

 

 

There are things that you've said that I have found elsewhere, like once you realize Primordial Ground (rigpa), you drop all other practices and focus on remaining in that state 24 hours a day (assuming of course that you can get back to it).

 

I wouldn't call rigpa "rigpa mind", for in the state of rigpa, the mind is long gone.

 

To me, the "rigpa" practices you've described are something like remaining in the substrate consciousness and not breaking through. Perhaps they are preliminary practices and not a true realization of the view (or non-view)?

 

Also, Alan Wallace says that some people can even realize rigpa through shamatha alone. He calls shamatha the little train that could. But he does emphatically state, as did Dudjom Lingpa, that without shamatha, there is no chance of retaining rigpa.

 

 

Think about it. You said that they told you:

When questioned, the answer given is, since Dzogchen is the Great Perfection, or Great Completion, it transcends ritual and symbol, therefore, one can choose either to pursue practices, or, return the mind 'home' to rest each time one notices discursive or distractive mental movements.

 

If you were in the non-state of rigpa, you wouldn't have any discursive or distractive mental movements to begin with. This is my opinion and it coincides with what I've learned.

 

What are your sources? Where did you get such teachings? Have you received the initiation into Primordial Ground (rigpa)? What was it like? Did your consciousness expand to be all things in the infinite universes? Realizing rigpa is realizing Buddha- hood. I realize that you are saying that you have been taught that you can go back and forth from Buddha-hood and back, by fending off the conceptual mind. I have to respectfully disagree with those beliefs. I think you can gain access to the substrate consciousness like that, the ground of samsara and nirvana, but you still have to break on through to the other side.

 

 

TI

[C T]

Hi C T

I can see we have different opinions on this matter.

I am not saying that rigpa is on the other side, Alan Wallace is saying that. On many occaisions. In no uncertain terms. As a matter of fact he even has a podcast where he sings "Break on through to the other side", like the popular 70's song.

And, to Alan Wallace and his writings from several prominant masters, they all say the same thing. You can't miss rigpa. It is an implosion, an event whereby you are no longer, and Primordial Ground is realized.

 

 

Here are some of Alan Wallace's quotes:

 

 

Does this sound like your introduction to Primordial Ground?

link: http://www.rigpawiki...e=Trekchö

 

 

There are things that you've said that I have found elsewhere, like once you realize Primordial Ground (rigpa), you drop all other practices and focus on remaining in that state 24 hours a day (assuming of course that you can get back to it).

 

I wouldn't call rigpa "rigpa mind", for in the state of rigpa, the mind is long gone.

 

To me, the "rigpa" practices you've described are something like remaining in the substrate consciousness and not breaking through. Perhaps they are preliminary practices and not a true realization of the view (or non-view)?

 

Also, Alan Wallace says that some people can even realize rigpa through shamatha alone. He calls shamatha the little train that could. But he does emphatically state, as did Dudjom Lingpa, that without shamatha, there is no chance of retaining rigpa.

 

 

Think about it. You said that they told you:

 

 

If you were in the non-state of rigpa, you wouldn't have any discursive or distractive mental movements to begin with. This is my opinion and it coincides with what I've learned.

 

What are your sources? Where did you get such teachings? Have you received the initiation into Primordial Ground (rigpa)? What was it like? Did your consciousness expand to be all things in the infinite universes? Realizing rigpa is realizing Buddha- hood. I realize that you are saying that you have been taught that you can go back and forth from Buddha-hood and back, by fending off the conceptual mind. I have to respectfully disagree with those beliefs. I think you can gain access to the substrate consciousness like that, the ground of samsara and nirvana, but you still have to break on through to the other side.

 

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

Yes, it appears we have differing opinions.

 

I used 'rigpa mind' metaphorically, just as 'breaking thru to the other side' is sometimes used by teachers metaphorically. In actuality, there is no other side, other than one's belief that there is.

 

You mentioned correctly that one cannot miss rigpa. The reason is obvious... it is there all the time, not some state to reach thru contrivance. I cannot understand (at this point in time) your insistance that there is an implosion of sorts.. perhaps i may yet do, at some stage. Maybe then we could establish a more common ground to discuss this implied occurrence.

 

Its also obvious we disagree with the statement that realizing rigpa is realizing buddhahood. The entire premise of this statement falls short of understanding Ground, Path and Fruition, the basis of training in the View. Though there is some truth in saying that one can go back and forth, in and out of resting in the natural state (in some circles its called 'View', a term very familiar among students of Sogyal Rinpoche). This line of thinking is further cemented by Shantideva when he implored:

 

"He who wants to avoid the hundredfold pain of existence,

who wants to still the sufferings of sentient beings,

who wants to enjoy the hundredfold happiness,

such a one must never abandon the Thought of Enlightenment.

 

As soon as the Thought of Enlightenment takes root in him,

the miserable one who is fettered by passions to the prison of existence,

becomes immediately a son of the Buddhas!

He becomes worthy of veneration in the world of man and of gods!

 

As soon as this thought has taken possession of this unclean body,

it transforms it into the precious gem of a buddha's body.

Therefore, take hold of this elixir, which causes this wonderful transformation,

and which is called the Thought of Enlightenment!"

 

As per the above quote, the Ground (intent) is overcoming the pains of ignorance, the Path is learning not to abandon the Thought of Enlightenment (holding the View to the point of reaching stable recognition in each moment), and finally, the Fruition, Buddhahood.

 

If rigpa is buddhahood itself, then the whole basis of the Dzogchen teachings on Ground, Path and Fruition turns into some sort of a simplistic sham, which it definitely is not.

 

There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind (its true nature, that is). Those who think otherwise will do well to remember the words of Samten Gyatso, who is the root guru of one of Tibet's most revered yogi, Tulku Urgyen --- he said, "I have not had a single special experience. As the years pass by, my trust in the authencity of Dharma grows. I am confident in the truth of the three kayas. From the age of eight I looked into the essence of mind, and since then I have never forsaken it. My diligence varied and of course I became distracted at times, but mostly I have kept to the practice of mind essence."

 

http://www.rangjung....mten_Gyatso.htm

It might be helpful to take Samten Gyatso's words to heart, for he is indeed a fully liberated being. Wallace is a sharp teacher in his own right, but i would never disregard the advice of someone who was regarded by the 15th Karmapa as "the only person who has fully realized non-dual awareness."

 

Being initiated into one's own mind essence, where one gets a small glimpse into the union of wisdom and emptiness, is only the tip of the journey. As we can deduce from the Karmapa's statement, to reach full realization does require a lot of practice. Having said this, i think its really significantly moot to even consider the question whether my consciousness ('My' becomes meaningless then, dont you agree?) expanded into all things in the universe at that time when i received introduction. In recollection, i do remember that accompanying that moment was fleeting moments of very profound peace, the taste of which has lingered to this day.

 

The thing is, i did not, and still do not, yearn for that state of peace. On the contrary, each time it suffuses my being spontaneously, i simply remember to sustain recognition of mind essence, making feeble attempts to emulate the great Samten Gyatso.

 

Peace, my friend.

Edited December 21, 2012 by C T

[konchog uma]

just ordered Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, thanks TI

 

so nice to see you guys disagree with civility, thank you both

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi C T

In an effort to establish some common ground, I have found some definitions which correspond to my usage of words and current belief system. Hopefully they will shed some light on this topic.

 

You said:

Its also obvious we disagree with the statement that realizing rigpa is realizing buddhahood. The entire premise of this statement falls short of understanding Ground, Path and Fruition, the basis of training in the View.

 

In support of my definition of Ground, or Primordial Ground, which is rigpa, I would like to present this text:

link: http://www.rigpawiki...hp?title=Ground

Ground (Tib. shyi; Wyl. gzhi) — all the Buddhist teachings are explained in terms of Ground, Path, and Fruition. The ground of Dzogchen is the fundamental, primordial state, our absolute nature, which is already perfect and always present. It is described as being endowed with three qualities: its essence, its nature and its compassionate energy. Although conceptually we make distinctions between them, these three qualities of the ground of being are united.

In the general Buddhist teachings, the Ground is also referred to as the buddha nature. The buddha nature speaks of our potential for enlightenment, the seed of buddha or seed of enlightenment that all of us have within us.

At the moment, the Ground of our true nature is obscured and we are on the path of delusion, but we can cut through that delusion, to return to our original nature.

The way we do that is by taking the Path of View, Meditation and Action. Through View, Meditation and Action, we recognize the Ground of our true nature and make it into our reality.

When the Ground is fully realized, that is the Fruition: we attain complete liberation and become a buddha.

 

 

Let's examine the first statement: "The ground of Dzogchen is the fundamental, primordial state, our absolute nature, which is already perfect and always present."

According to this statement, the ground of Dzogchen is the primordial state.

 

And, according to the next statement further on "In the general Buddhist teachings, the Ground is also referred to as the buddha nature."

 

So it follows that realizing the Ground is realizing Buddha nature. I think that you are looking at the sequence of "Ground, path and fruition" as a linear progression of practice, whereas I am using the term Ground in order to identify the state, regardless of the method of arriving at that state. Therefore, I am not confused, nor am I confusing the identification of the state of rigpa with the means of arriving to the state of rigpa. "Ground, path, fruition" is the method. Primordial Ground is the imutable, unchanging state. Primordial Ground does not grow or become by means of path or fruition, it is always constant.

 

You said:

If rigpa is buddhahood itself, then the whole basis of the Dzogchen teachings on Ground, Path and Fruition turns into some sort of a simplistic sham, which it definitely is not.

 

So yes, rigpa is Buddhahood. It is not a sham. I don't see any logic or justification for your statement other than it seems to confuse the method with arriving at the Primordial Ground, with the definition of the Primordial Ground (or rigpa). What part exactly is the sham?

 

Perhaps the sham is when a guru performs a transmission to give you a taste of rigpa, and when it doesn't work, the guru blames it on your past samskaras and karmas?

 

The other vague argument I have is that Dzogchen is unlike conventional Buddhism in the sense that there is no path and fruition. Dzogchen cuts directly to the Primordial Ground, the path is a non-path and the fruition is realizing that there is no path or fruition needed. Bang! You're there.

 

Apparently, this Dzogchen point of view has been greatly criticized by conventional Buddhists:

from Heart Drops of Dhamakaya:

"Some of the masters of Dzogchen introduce the view directly

with a crystal or mirror; some say you must go to a quiet

place to meditate; some say you must have hardship and others

that you must be a beggar. Some of the masters say that you

must give up all your property and go and live in a cemetery

or in the mountains; some again say, "Go now and live as a

madman!" Some say, "Don't desire anything, go and live as a

small child." Others say you must live the opposite of what they

teach; some say, "You should avoid objects that cause anger and

desire and don't expect to have a good reputation!" Others say

whether people say good or bad things about you, you should

not care. These are the sayings of the Dzogchen masters.

 

"But according to this system we don't accept any teachings

of theirs; we don't think that their teachings are either good or

bad—we don't care. Why? Because we are completely outside

of the judgement of their points. There is no point in arguing

or judging; we don't care. Like the elephant—if he is thirsty

no one can stop him from going to the water! All these different

views have been bounded by thought and so are grasping."

 

I think this is pretty good argument against relying on a path and a stage of fruition, don't you?

 

In my simple, very stupid (but clear) interpretation, Dzogchen is:

Step 1: Realize that this life is a dream

Step 2: Adopt the view

Step 3: Never forget it, even for a moment.

 

 

 

There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind (its true nature, that is).

Those who think otherwise will do well to remember the words of Samten Gyatso, who is the root guru of one of Tibet's most revered yogi, Tulku Urgyen --- he said, "I have not had a single special experience. As the years pass by, my trust in the authencity of Dharma grows. I am confident in the truth of the three kayas. From the age of eight I looked into the essence of mind, and since then I have never forsaken it. My diligence varied and of course I became distracted at times, but mostly I have kept to the practice of mind essence."

 

http://www.rangjung....mten_Gyatso.htm

It might be helpful to take Samten Gyatso's words to heart, for he is indeed a fully liberated being. Wallace is a sharp teacher in his own right, but i would never disregard the advice of someone who was regarded by the 15th Karmapa as "the only person who has fully realized non-dual awareness."

 

I don't like calling Mind "rigpa". I also don't see how you can say that "There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind (its true nature, that is)" When I was "blessed" by Jesus in a church a long time ago, it was so profound that it was bar none the biggest event in my life. It was the first time I could not physically move no matter how hard I tried. Waves of energy were pouring through me. I split apart into various components with large amounts of space in between. My eyes cried, the bliss was tremendous, I felt so insignificant compared to the power that Jesus has, that I admit it, I am nothing. Just a little spec of light. It was mind blowing, gut wrenching, ecstatic, holy, sureal and miraculous. It was the farthest thing away from "nothing special" that I can think of. Yet you say that "There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind". Has somesome sold you a bad deck of cards?

 

I mean no offence here. I'm just trying to illustrate that there is a vast difference between experiences, and I would expect nothing less from realized gurus from Tibet. Gurus who can walk through walls, draw a picture of a cow on a wall and then proceed to milk it, evaporate into a bolt of rainbow light... Surely they too must be able to grant a taste of the Primordial state.

 

 

I know it must seem like I'm just contradicting everything you are saying, and I admit, it does seem like that to me too.

Humility does have it's place, but isn't there at least some obligation to the rest of the sentient beings to impress knowledge thereby enabling a speedier liberation? And aren't open demonstrations part of that display? Sometimes you have to roar like a lion, don't you? Make a hard effort to grab the golden chalice with all your heart and just go for it!

 

 

 

Being initiated into one's own mind essence, where one gets a small glimpse into the union of wisdom and emptiness, is only the tip of the journey. As we can deduce from the Karmapa's statement, to reach full realization does require a lot of practice. Having said this, i think its really significantly moot to even consider the question whether my consciousness ('My' becomes meaningless then, dont you agree?) expanded into all things in the universe at that time when i received introduction. In recollection, i do remember that accompanying that moment was fleeting moments of very profound peace, the taste of which has lingered to this day.

 

The thing is, i did not, and still do not, yearn for that state of peace. On the contrary, each time it suffuses my being spontaneously, i simply remember to sustain recognition of mind essence, making feeble attempts to emulate the great Samten Gyatso.

 

Peace, my friend.

 

Thank you very much for disclosing your experience. Yes, I agree. "My" becomes meaningless. In the handful of mystical experiences (I call them satori moments, probably erroneously) that I have had, there was only "ME" or "US" or one. I was the bathtub, I was the soap, I was the water droplets, I was looking back at me.

 

TI

Edited December 22, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

"One who endeavors to be a Dzogchen sadhaka cannot afford to cut corners. It is due to the desire to cut corners that samsara exists."

 

"The foundational Vajrakilaya is the sun shining in the sky behind the clouds. The Path Vajrakilaya is the removal of the clouds from the sky through the force of wind and rain, or whatever; it is the path of method and wisdom, combined. And the resultant Vajrakilaya is the nature of your mind, the nature of your rigpa, which is the same mind as the mind of the primordial buddha, Kuntuzangpo. The Path Vajrakilaya is the removal of the adventitious veil of obscuration that covers rigpa. Applying the method by practicing generation stage (kyerim) and completion stage (dzogrim), accumulating merit and purifying negative karma, removing that veil, is the path. The result is the realizing that one's self nature is buddha. So the result is the same as the foundation. In the beginning you are a buddha, and in the end you are a buddha."

 

*both quotes from Gyatrul Rinpoche, another esteemed Dzogchen master.

 

Anyone who reads the last line, and then assumes that the buddha at the beginning is the same buddha at the end of the journey has work to do. Even though a seed contains the potential to be a plant or a tree, whether it gets to be one or the other is dependent on many conditions coming together. One cannot say the seed is not tree, either. Where can one draw a clear demarcation? Its impossible. The process determines the end result, in all instances.

 

 

Hi TI,

 

Your comment about the bad deck of cards really made me laugh. You sure have a way with words, that much i can say.

 

There's really not much more room to continue our discussion. Your mind seem pretty much made up, and the undercurrent in the tone of some of your comments suggests (i could be mistaken) that you enjoy, to a degree, undermining and/or invalidating teachers who dont teach according to the way you want to understand the Dzogchen teachings. Understandably so, given your penchant for wanting strongly to uncover the ultimate trip, which, in Dzogchen, does not exist. There really is no 'boom', or 'pop', even.

 

Perhaps one day you will connect with a true Dzogchen master, and have that opportunity to validate this for yourself.

 

I wish you well, my friend.

 

[konchog uma]

I don't like calling Mind "rigpa". I also don't see how you can say that "There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind (its true nature, that is)" When I was "blessed" by Jesus in a church a long time ago, it was so profound that it was bar none the biggest event in my life.

 

CT didn't say that, Samten Gyatso did. Its very common for traditional Tibetan masters to insist that they have no attainments, even if their minds rest in the natural state all day. Even if they exist in a state of unimaginable purity and clarity, they will say "i have no attainments, i am just a beginner"... its very foreign to the western mind, which always seems to want to talk about attainments.

 

sorry to butt in, i think its a point worth noting, hope it helps

Edited December 22, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

Mipham Jampal Dorje (Mipham the scholar, considered to be a deity emanation of Manjushri) says this about rigpa and mind in his "The Lamp Which Dispels Darkness" which i found in Perfect Clarity on page 84

 

"The glorious Saraha said:

 

Completely abandoning the thinker and what is thought of, Remain like a thought-free child

 

This is the method of resting, and

 

if you apply yourself to the guru's words and

endeavor, when you have obtained the instruction

that brings you face to face with knowing (rigpa)*

the coemergent will dawn without a doubt.

 

Thus dawns the self-existing wakefulness that is rigpa - the nature of your mind, which is primordially coemergent with your mind. This nature (dharmata) of all things (dharmas) is also the original and ultimate luminosity.

This being so, settling in naturalness and sustaining the rigpa of recognizing one's natural face, the mind-essence or nature of mind, is an instruction that condenses a hundred vital points into one. Moreover, this is what you should sustain continuously."

 

(* in this text, ripga is translated as "knowing," so as to follow simple explanations by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche)

 

so he talks about rigpa as "primordially coemergent with your mind" and being identified with mind-essence.

 

just came across this and thought i would butt in yet again, since i am still feeling out the finer points of this terminology myself, and i find the conversation helpful. I hope this is not offensive to anyone!

Edited December 22, 2012 by anamatva

[Tibetan_Ice]

CT didn't say that, Samten Gyatso did. Its very common for traditional Tibetan masters to insist that they have no attainments, even if their minds rest in the natural state all day. Even if they exist in a state of unimaginable purity and clarity, they will say "i have no attainments, i am just a beginner"... its very foreign to the western mind, which always seems to want to talk about attainments.

 

sorry to butt in, i think its a point worth noting, hope it helps

Hi Anamatva

I don't think you are butting in.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was having a hard time understanding how Samten Gyatso could be such a humble person, yet many people feared him (according to the book "Blazing Splendour"). He did not reveal his inner state, yet he was purportedly one of the most direct and exact masters when it came to teachings.

And yes, we here in the West like to talk about attainments and experiences. I like to talk about them because I hope that it will help others with their understanding and help support their desire for realization.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Mipham Jampal Dorje (Mipham the scholar, considered to be a deity emanation of Manjushri) says this about rigpa and mind in his "The Lamp Which Dispels Darkness" which i found in Perfect Clarity on page 84

 

"The glorious Saraha said:

 

Completely abandoning the thinker and what is thought of, Remain like a thought-free child

 

This is the method of resting, and

 

if you apply yourself to the guru's words and

endeavor, when you have obtained the instruction

that brings you face to face with knowing (rigpa)*

the coemergent will dawn without a doubt.

 

Thus dawns the self-existing wakefulness that is rigpa - the nature of your mind, which is primordially coemergent with your mind. This nature (dharmata) of all things (dharmas) is also the original and ultimate luminosity.

This being so, settling in naturalness and sustaining the rigpa of recognizing one's natural face, the mind-essence or nature of mind, is an instruction that condenses a hundred vital points into one. Moreover, this is what you should sustain continuously."

 

(* in this text, ripga is translated as "knowing," so as to follow simple explanations by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche)

 

so he talks about rigpa as "primordially coemergent with your mind" and being identified with mind-essence.

 

just came across this and thought i would butt in yet again, since i am still feeling out the finer points of this terminology myself, and i find the conversation helpful. I hope this is not offensive to anyone!

Hi Ananamatva

Being the stickler that I am, I noticed that your quote is actually from page 118, not 84. But, perhaps you have the Kindle edition?

I also noticed that the term "rigpa" is used on page 152, by Khenpo Gangshar when he says "This is awareness (rigpa)."

Incidentally, that section in Perfect Clarity from Khenpo Gangshar is actually from the book called "Vivid Awareness".

 

Hmm. This is getting interesting.. There is a mystery here.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Anamatva and C T

I have found a very interesting article about Dzogchen, which has answered many of the questions we have been discussing.

It seems that C T and I are both right about the dual interpretation of the term "rigpa", according to this article anyway..

 

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=1110&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

 

The whole article appears to be quite good because things are said in it that really resonate with me. For example: the idea that emotions are particularily good to dissolve because they feed "rigpa". I have found that to be true and it is nice to see that premise confirmed in writing. Emotions, when focused on directly until the meaning or head of the emotion dissolves releases quite a bit energy.

 

But on to the 'meat'. It is not so wrong to use a simplification of the term "rigpa" and simply call it "awareness", is it? Perhaps not.

 

This next part of that article says this:

Two types of rigpa are defined in the context of practice. Although only a conceptual division, it is helpful in instruction. The first, the base rigpa, is the pervasive foundational awareness of the base. Every being that has a mind has this awareness, buddhas as well as samsaric beings, as it is from this awareness that all minds arise.

The second is the arising innate awareness of the path, which is the individual’s experience of the pervasive awareness. It is called path rigpa because it refers to the direct experience of rigpa that yogis have when they enter the practice of Dzogchen and receive the introduction, initiation and transmission. That is, it is not realized in experience until the practitioner is introduced to it by the Master.

The potential for path rigpa to manifest lies in the fact that our minds arise from the primordial awareness of the base. When the primordial awareness is known directly, we call it innate awareness, and this is the path rigpa that the yogi knows. In this context, we refer to the primordial awareness as rigpa, and the rigpa that arises on the path as rang-rig. The first is like cream and the second is like butter in the sense that they are the same substance but something must be done to produce the butter. This is arising or path rigpa because we enter it, then leave it and fall back into the moving mind. It is intermittent in our experience. But rigpa is always prsent - the primordial base rigpa is presence, neither arising nor ceasing, whether we recognize it or not.

- The Life and Teachings of Adeu Rinpoche

 

 

Really the whole article is really good. I will have to digest it and see how it appears after some contemplation. I would also like to verify the sources. (which reminds me, C T, it would be nice if you posted links or sources to your quotes.. )

 

C T, thanks for the discussion. It has helped (and hopefully others) gain a better understanding of the varieties of Dzogchen teachings and interpretations of obscure terminology.

 

All the best.

 

TI

 

Well, on to 24 and the nyams of practice..

Edited December 23, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[konchog uma]

Hi Ananamatva

Being the stickler that I am, I noticed that your quote is actually from page 118, not 84. But, perhaps you have the Kindle edition?

I also noticed that the term "rigpa" is used on page 152, by Khenpo Gangshar when he says "This is awareness (rigpa)."

Incidentally, that section in Perfect Clarity from Khenpo Gangshar is actually from the book called "Vivid Awareness".

 

Hmm. This is getting interesting.. There is a mystery here.

 

TI

 

yes kindle edition indeed, thank you for pointing that out

 

i have noticed while reading that book that Eric Pema Kunsang often translates "rigpa" into english as "awareness".

 

yes a groovy mystery, get in the van guys *spoiler: its old garab dorje the mountain hermit, he's the one behind all those fingernails and bunches of hair! (zoinks)

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva and C T

I have found a very interesting article about Dzogchen, which has answered many of the questions we have been discussing.

It seems that C T and I are both right about the dual interpretation of the term "rigpa", according to this article anyway..

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=1110&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

 

great link, thanks, i'd like to quote something from the section entitled "the life and teachings of adeu rinpoche"

 

"[student] What are some of the stumbling blocks in the practice of rigpa?

 

[Rinpoche]: The most common stumbling blocks to maintaining the continuity of rigpa are the temporary experiences of bliss, clarity and non-thought. Let’s take bliss as an example. This is when you are practicing and supposedly training in the natural state, but it has actually shifted into being a cozy state of shamatha where you feel extremely good. You get the feeling that, “I don’t want to spill the soup because if I move, may be I will ruin this state”. It feels very comfortable, very smooth, very clear, and undisturbed. Being in such a state is so enjoyable that you don’t even want to move a knee or arm, afraid that even the slightest movement will wreck that state. This is a sign that the mood of shamatha has saturated the state of rigpa and taken it over.

If this happens, you should totally disown that state. Instead of clinging to the meditation like a precious possession, you should toss it away. There is a statement that the mountain boulder improves by falling. It falls from a great height, clashes with stone, and gets polished and purified. Likewise, rushing water becomes fresher and purer as it flows downstream. In the same way, the yogi’s meditation is improved by destruction; repeatedly destroying the meditation state improves it.

The indication that one has slipped into shamatha is a sense of being attached or fascinated. Clinging, one goes astray. Rigpa is without clinging to anything whatsoever. It is wide open and clear whereas Shamatha doesn’t have the lucidity to it. In some of his songs Milarepa says that bliss, clarity and non-thought are like the dregs of the view and should be thrown away. In other songs, he says that bliss, clarity and non-thought are like the summit of the view. How are these two seemingly contradictory statements reconciled? In the first case, these are like the cozy mood of shamatha and so nothing more than a product of grasping mind. So of course such a state should be dispensed with and not clung to. However the natural state, the essence, itself is also blissful, clear and free of thought, yet these qualities cannot be dispensed with because they are intrinsic to the natural state. The difference is that at the stage of one-pointedness, one still clings to these temporary experiences; whereas in the next stage of Simplicity, they are recognized to be the characteristics of the natural state which is not only blissful, clear and free of thought, but also free of all clinging and grasping."

 

 

i think it may have been along these sorts of lines that CT was operating when he said that there is no 'boom' or 'pop' in dzogchen. Everyone knows that peak experiences happen, and also that disappearing into the dharmadhatu in a wild light show is pretty 'boom' and 'pop'. But the idea that bliss, clarity, and non-thought are three obstacles to dzogchen progress keeps coming up in the teachings, and strikes me as very useful.

 

at this beginning stage of my dzogchen studies i feel a little bit like a blind man feeling an elephant, but slowly a picture is emerging. The way it works with phenomena seems very tantric in that it uses whatever arises as an opportunity to manifest primordial awareness, but at the same time seems very non-tantric in that there is really nothing to be transformed, no transformation happening. Where tantric methods seek to work with the emotions to turn them into the wisdoms, dzogchen seeks to abide in the primordial state, from which vantage point the emotions are already expressions of the wisdom, and clearly so, no transformation need take place.

 

Feel free anyone to correct me or comment on that, certainly not trying to profess, simply running an idea past you all, thinking out loud as it were

Edited December 23, 2012 by anamatva

[C T]

Seeing that Christmas is upon us, it seems appropriate to share this wonderfully helpful article with my dzogchen friends here.

 

http://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/teachings/loving-kindness-and-compassion-in-the-dzogchen-tradition/

 

Please accept it as a small token of gratitude for your kind patience and unlimited tolerance for having allowed me space to ramble on like a mr. know-it-all. Be assured that i am certainly not an expert nor learned geshe... and if my yappings have offended anyone, i confess to being an ignorant mule who must be taught a great lesson in humility, as Tibetan Ice kindly pointed out in one of his earlier posts. (Not that he said that i have to be taught this lesson, but gave a general reminder that humility is a virtuous trait to cultivate, which i fully endorse to be true.)

 

Happy holidays, everybawdeee!!

[Tibetan_Ice]

great link, thanks, i'd like to quote something from the section entitled "the life and teachings of adeu rinpoche"

 

"[student] What are some of the stumbling blocks in the practice of rigpa?

 

[Rinpoche]: The most common stumbling blocks to maintaining the continuity of rigpa are the temporary experiences of bliss, clarity and non-thought. Let’s take bliss as an example. This is when you are practicing and supposedly training in the natural state, but it has actually shifted into being a cozy state of shamatha where you feel extremely good. You get the feeling that, “I don’t want to spill the soup because if I move, may be I will ruin this state”. It feels very comfortable, very smooth, very clear, and undisturbed. Being in such a state is so enjoyable that you don’t even want to move a knee or arm, afraid that even the slightest movement will wreck that state. This is a sign that the mood of shamatha has saturated the state of rigpa and taken it over.

If this happens, you should totally disown that state. Instead of clinging to the meditation like a precious possession, you should toss it away. There is a statement that the mountain boulder improves by falling. It falls from a great height, clashes with stone, and gets polished and purified. Likewise, rushing water becomes fresher and purer as it flows downstream. In the same way, the yogi’s meditation is improved by destruction; repeatedly destroying the meditation state improves it.

The indication that one has slipped into shamatha is a sense of being attached or fascinated. Clinging, one goes astray. Rigpa is without clinging to anything whatsoever. It is wide open and clear whereas Shamatha doesn’t have the lucidity to it. In some of his songs Milarepa says that bliss, clarity and non-thought are like the dregs of the view and should be thrown away. In other songs, he says that bliss, clarity and non-thought are like the summit of the view. How are these two seemingly contradictory statements reconciled? In the first case, these are like the cozy mood of shamatha and so nothing more than a product of grasping mind. So of course such a state should be dispensed with and not clung to. However the natural state, the essence, itself is also blissful, clear and free of thought, yet these qualities cannot be dispensed with because they are intrinsic to the natural state. The difference is that at the stage of one-pointedness, one still clings to these temporary experiences; whereas in the next stage of Simplicity, they are recognized to be the characteristics of the natural state which is not only blissful, clear and free of thought, but also free of all clinging and grasping."

 

 

Hi Anamatva,

It is just like Alan Wallace said. The substrate consciousness is a state of bliss, clarity and non-thought, but the primordial ground is also bliss and clarity.

 

This kind of follows suit:

link: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dzogchen

If one can unite the Ground Luminosity (Mother Luminosity) with the Luminosity which one has recognized whilst practising during one’s lifetime (Child Luminosity), then one will be liberated into the Dharmakaya.

 

As well, this follows the general trajectory of the path of jhanic realization. The bliss and joy of the first jhana must be abandoned in order to progress to the second jhana.. and so on.. If one does not abandon the clinging to the coarse sensations, one will never get to the fourth jhana of equanimity, let alone the 7'th or 8'th jhanas.

 

But I think the key here is not clinging or averting.. I think many Dzogchen texts have said that already..

 

i think it may have been along these sorts of lines that CT was operating when he said that there is no 'boom' or 'pop' in dzogchen.

Well, if we believe that rigpa can be simple awareness as well as the Primordial Ground, then I can see that there is room for confusion. However, there is no mention of the experience of transition or realization of enlightenment in that whole article, so one should not assume that there is no 'pop' or 'boom'. Alan Wallace and other sources have stated that there is a transition stage of passing through a state where it feels like death, the substrate shatters and the self loses footing.

 

The other very interesting things that were pointed out in that article, to me, are these:

 

 

In the Dzogchen teaching, “earth” or “bhUmi” symbolizes the Ground, or Base. What is the ground of both samsara and nirvana? It is primordial wisdom, or in Dzogchen terms, rigpa. So rigpa is the ground from which everything emanates. Samsara and nirvana (the enlightened state) are not really distinct from each other. When we realize the rigpa nature, we are enlightened beings. When we don’t realize this nature, we are in samsara. For that reason, the Prayer of Kuntuzangpo by Padmasambhava says, “If you recognize rigpa, you are enlightened beings. If you don’t recognize it, you are deluded beings.” So knowing and not knowing rigpa is really the borderline between enlightenment and delusion and between buddhas and sentient beings. Knowing rigpa, we reach enlightenment; not knowing rigpa, we stay deluded. So the Ground in Dzogchen is this innate awareness, rigpa.

- Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche

 

Yes, primordial wisdom is rigpa. But there are two meanings of the term rigpa, the second is the simplified: 'awareness'.

 

C N Norbu emphatically states that you cannot make someone enlightened. Therefore, according to Padmasambhava's statement, no Dzogchen master can empower someone else to realize rigpa, because the recognition of rigpa results in enlightenment. This is sort of implying that Dzogchen masters can only point to it, not transfer it. I can see why some teachers have resorted to using the simple meaning of rigpa as "awareness". Or is it the case where enlightenment is just hiding behind the veils, and we can occasionally see it through the cracks in the veils? A little confusing here..

 

 

The Buddha said that realization depends on us, ourselves. He was totally enlightened, omniscient, and full of compassion. He was not indifferent to the suffering of other beings. So why wouldn't he have performed the miracle of enlightening all the beings in transmigration, if such a thing were possible? But the fact is that if it was not possible even for the Buddha to do such a thing, then it is not possible for anyone to do it. Thus we need to be active towards the teachings ourselves, really applying them in our lives.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (p. 96).

 

So, this seems to be some kind of contradiction to me. Surely, if we are already enlightened, a Dzogchen master can remove the veils, if not temporarily, but by removing the veils temporarily that would make us realize our enlightenment, which is not possible, so these statement don't make sense to me.

 

The next interesting point that I found in that text is:

The indication that one has slipped into shamatha is a sense of being attached or fascinated. Clinging, one goes astray. Rigpa is without clinging to anything whatsoever. It is wide open and clear whereas Shamatha doesn’t have the lucidity to it.

 

I have to wonder about that statement that Shamatha doesn't have the lucidity to it. Alan Wallace says that the three components that we cultivate in Shamata is relaxation, stability and vividness. Perhaps that is the practice round to develop the substrate consciousness, but it would indicate that you can have Shamatha and lucidity..

 

 

The section on dissolving emotions is very similar to Eckhart Tolle's method of dealing with the pain body. Eckhart is one smart cookie. Who'd have thought he knew something about Dzogchen practices?

 

The practitioner discovers, and this is a revolutionary insight, whose subtlety and power cannot be overestimated - that not only do violent emotions not necessarily sweep you away and drag you back into whirlpools of your own neuroses, they can actually be used to deepen, embolden, invigorate and strengthen rigpa. The tempestuous energy becomes raw food of the awakened energy of rigpa. The stronger the emotion, and more flaming it is, the more rigpa is strengthened. This unique method of Dzogchen has extraordinary power to free even the most inveterate, deeply rooted emotional and psychological problems.

 

 

 

And this last one, I discovered while browsing today. It concerns the visions which are obtained during the practice of Trekcho:

link: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dzogchen

At the present moment our awareness is entangled within our mind, completely enveloped and obscured by mental activity. Through the practice of Trekchö, or ‘cutting through all attachment’, and the ‘direct realization’ of Tögal, one can unmask this awareness and let its radiance arise. To accomplish this it is necessary to do the practice of ‘the four ways of leaving things in their natural simplicity’ (Tib. chokshyak shyi) and through these, to acquire perfect stability in the Trekchö practice. Then will come the ‘four visions of tögal’ which are the natural arising of visions of discs and rays of light, deities and buddha fields. These visions are naturally ready to arise from within the central channel that joins the heart to the eyes. Such an arising from this channel will appear in a gradual process. In the same way that the waxing moon will increase from the first to the fifteenth of the month, these visions will gradually increase—from the simple perception of dots of light to the full array of the vast expanse of the sambhogakaya buddha fields. The manifestation of space and awareness will thus reach its culminating point.

 

It says "These visions are naturally ready to arise from within the central channel that joins the heart to the eyes."

This is a very profound statement to me. Not only does it suggest that the heart plays a role in the visions, but that the channel from the heart to the eyes must be open. When I first saw that text I thought of tummo, vase breathing or kriya pranayama (the practices of opening the central channel with heat). Then I considered that heart seems to be the seat of consciousness, referring to the experiences I have had with using the love from the heart for remote viewing.. Then I thought of that end point for the path to the eyes, is actually from the heart to the third eye. There is something very profound with that statement..

 

All is well.

 

TI

[konchog uma]

CT, thanks for that article!

 

TI, i am not sure that recognizing rigpa equals enlightenment. Perhaps resting in unstained awareness (rigpa) as a constant state could be said to be an enlightened state. I wouldn't contest that. But the pointing out happens so that we can recognize ripga initially and have a reference point to return to as we work with our mind (sem) and awareness (rigpa). It makes perfect sense to me that a realized master could transmit the state they were in to another person who was capable of handling it.

 

Some people have received pointing out instructions and because of their capability and karma, achieved liberation right then and there. But by far, most people who receive pointing out instructions maintain the state for a little bit, and then lose it, returning to a state characterized by obscurations.

 

That is my small understanding.