Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[C T]

I should be the one thanking you, Anamatva, for starting this thread. Its very helpful as i find my faith and motivation increasing from reading of your's and other's experiences.

 

Tsoknyi Rinpoche gave very good, practical advice on how to stabilize rigpa:

http://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/teachings/clinging/

[konchog uma]

you are certainly welcome, my own practice has benefitted greatly too!

 

edit: hehe i am still in the clinging stages that article describes

Edited December 23, 2012 by anamatva

[Ish]

I should be the one thanking you, Anamatva, for starting this thread. Its very helpful as i find my faith and motivation increasing from reading of your's and other's experiences.

 

Tsoknyi Rinpoche gave very good, practical advice on how to stabilize rigpa:

http://www.tsoknyiri...hings/clinging/

 

This is marvelous, i love these clear and practical instructions that can instantly help ones practice.

[C T]

This is marvelous, i love these clear and practical instructions that can instantly help ones practice.

 

Marvelous indeed!

 

Aptly titled book from which the quote was extracted ~ Fearless Simplicity !!

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Anamatva, C T and others

 

Having accepted that there are indeed two definitions for the term "rigpa", perhaps a baby rigpa and a mother rigpa, I listened to Alan Wallace's 26'th podcast. It contains a guided meditation which is Padmasambhava's meditation of introverting and expanding awareness: (the second meditation on that podcast). Alan Wallace makes the analogy that this meditation instruction, that of inverting awareness in towards the mind and then expanding it outwards, is like using a battering ram to break on through to the other side. Now, Alan Wallace has a PHD in religious studies, was the Dalai Lama's personal interpretor and has lived the Tibetan life style for over 16 years. I don't think Alan Wallace is making this up, nor is he misleading anyone. My conclusion is that there are various levels of comprehension that are exhibited by various teachers, and various levels of initiation into their various views. (the three "V"s) LOL

 

I have been reviewing "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and I found this next text in the "Practice of Trekcho" section (bolding is mine):

 

THE DIRECT INTRODUCTION

Now concerning the direct introduction there are three methods of teaching. The first is to comment on the importance, the second is to tie up and the third is to bind.

 

The First Method: The Comment on the Importance

Here there are two methods: to show directly the root awareness and to show the view, practice, action and fruit.

 

To Show Directly the Root Awareness. There are three descriptions of awareness (rig pa). The first is encompassing awareness, the second is awareness of thinking and the third is primordial awareness. The first means the awareness of the Buddha who encompasses all beings. The second is that of some schools of meditation like Vipassana (insight) where awareness is practised in meditation. There if you do not practise it you do not see the awareness, and sometimes it is clear and sometimes not. The third is according to this view - it is the real awareness of Dzogpachenpo. It is always there whether you are practicing meditation or not, or whether you realize it or not. Whether you know it or not does not matter. What follows below is to show you this awareness directly.

 

So, it appears that there are not two but three descriptions of awareness (rigpa).

 

I'm opting for the idea that Alan Wallace's rendition of Padmasambhava's meditation instructions are addressing the third meaning of the term "rigpa", being Primordial Awareness.

 

And, anyone who mentions rigpa as a form of Vipassana is defintately of the second meaning.

 

No wonder all the confusion...

 

C T, those were interesting links that you posted. Thank you very much.

 

 

Anamatva, you said:

TI, i am not sure that recognizing rigpa equals enlightenment. Perhaps resting in unstained awareness (rigpa) as a constant state could be said to be an enlightened state. I wouldn't contest that. But the pointing out happens so that we can recognize ripga initially and have a reference point to return to as we work with our mind (sem) and awareness (rigpa). It makes perfect sense to me that a realized master could transmit the state they were in to another person who was capable of handling it.

 

My belief at this time is that no Dzogchen master can transmit the recognition of Primordial Awareness, for, if they could they could transmit enlightenment. If it were possible to transmit enlightenment (as C N Norbu claims that it is not possible), then surely all the enlightened beings in the world would have enlightened the rest of us. What I think is occuring is this: The Dzogchen masters are passing the "child rigpa" on to the initiates' substrate consciousness. It is then up to the initiates to make this introduction manifest into the "mother rigpa" or true Primordial Consciousness by correct practices.

 

Well, on to podcast # 27.

 

 

TI

[Jetsun]

Marvelous indeed!

 

Aptly titled book from which the quote was extracted ~ Fearless Simplicity !!

 

I have read some of his books and I am surprised that Tsoknyi Rinpoche is not as well known or famous as some of these other Dzogchen masters, I found his teachings and explanations far clearer than most others I have found. Also most don't know that he is the son on Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and often in the Nyingma tradition a great deal is passed down from father to son

[konchog uma]

So, it appears that there are not two but three descriptions of awareness (rigpa).

I'm opting for the idea that Alan Wallace's rendition of Padmasambhava's meditation instructions are addressing the third meaning of the term "rigpa", being Primordial Awareness.

 

that seems right.. i am going to have to read them again tho.. thinking back on what i just read i am already confused

 

My belief at this time is that no Dzogchen master can transmit the recognition of Primordial Awareness, for, if they could they could transmit enlightenment. If it were possible to transmit enlightenment (as C N Norbu claims that it is not possible), then surely all the enlightened beings in the world would have enlightened the rest of us. What I think is occuring is this: The Dzogchen masters are passing the "child rigpa" on to the initiates' substrate consciousness. It is then up to the initiates to make this introduction manifest into the "mother rigpa" or true Primordial Consciousness by correct practices.

 

i am interested in what other more learned and experienced dzogchen people would say to that. It sounds to me like it makes good sense, but that means basically nothing. I am glad to see you thinking critically about all this, TI, and sharing your conclusions in this way. Thank you!

[doc benway]

Sorry - duplicate

Edited December 25, 2012 by steve

[doc benway]

I am by no means an experienced Dzogchen practitioner but I'd like to offer a perspective about transmission FWIW. I find it to be a subtle communication between master and student regarding the way in which one approaches the subject matter - it is beyond words and action and seems to involve stance, perspective, and receptivity. It's not so much that I am given something but rather I am opened up and prepared to have direct experience or insight. I find it very hard to verbalize or even conceptualize as it occurs on multiple levels and really seems to be a way to help the student to abandon conceptualization and embrace being and more direct contact. I realize that I'm not really saying anything either but there it is, I don't think it is really about something that can be said anyway - isn't that the whole point?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

...

One sign of having trained in rigpa, the awakened state, is simply that conceptual thinking, which is the opposite of rigpa, grows less and less. The gap between thoughts grow longer and longer and occurs more and more frequently. The state of unfabricated awareness, what the tantras call the 'continuous instant of nonfabrication' becomes more prolonged. Once we become accustomed to the genuine state of unfabricated rigpa, it will automatically start to last longer and longer."

 

This ought to clear matters somewhat.

 

Hi C T

I was listening to Alan Wallace's podcast #14 again.

He specifically says that the "Gap between thoughts" is the alaya, the substrate consciousness. It is not "pristine awareness" nor is it the Primordial Consciousness.

 

Did you even listen to any of the podcasts?

 

And, in retrospect, in Bon Dzogchen, there is not the conventional route of "ground, path, fruit". It says that specifically in "The Heart Drops of Dharmakaya". So, calling my interpretation of Dzogchen more of a completion stage just didn't make any sense. You were using Buddhist conventions to qualify my interpretation, when in Dzogchen, those conventions do not exist.

 

Just thought I'd mention that.

 

 

TI

[C T]

Hi C T

I was listening to Alan Wallace's podcast #14 again.

He specifically says that the "Gap between thoughts" is the alaya, the substrate consciousness. It is not "pristine awareness" nor is it the Primordial Consciousness.

 

Did you even listen to any of the podcasts?

 

And, in retrospect, in Bon Dzogchen, there is not the conventional route of "ground, path, fruit". It says that specifically in "The Heart Drops of Dharmakaya". So, calling my interpretation of Dzogchen more of a completion stage just didn't make any sense. You were using Buddhist conventions to qualify my interpretation, when in Dzogchen, those conventions do not exist.

 

Just thought I'd mention that.

 

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

Thanks for restating your position. I must have got it mixed up at some point in the discussion. Apologies.

 

I was not aware that A. Wallace taught from the Bon Dzogchen tradition. I am afraid i am not familiar enough (with Bon Dzogchen) to venture the discussion further.

 

Dzogchen, from the teachings of Longchenpa down to present-day mainstream Buddhist teachers (personally, i like Tulku Urgyen, his son, Chokyi Nyima, and a few others, like Sogyal Rinpoche, for example) all emphasize the vital import of Ground, Path and Fruit. Not that they are 3 separate methods of accomplishing and resolving one's practice in a gradated sort of way... more of a process of continual refinement, until all subtle residues evaporate from the 'mirror'.

 

Perhaps when you have more time, you may want to check this book http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=18670 out. Not saying you need to, but i think it will bring more clarity to the concept (but only if you think its worthwhile, otherwise, please disregard the recommendation).

 

All the best, friend.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

Thanks for restating your position. I must have got it mixed up at some point in the discussion. Apologies.

 

I was not aware that A. Wallace taught from the Bon Dzogchen tradition. I am afraid i am not familiar enough (with Bon Dzogchen) to venture the discussion further.

 

Dzogchen, from the teachings of Longchenpa down to present-day mainstream Buddhist teachers (personally, i like Tulku Urgyen, his son, Chokyi Nyima, and a few others, like Sogyal Rinpoche, for example) all emphasize the vital import of Ground, Path and Fruit. Not that they are 3 separate methods of accomplishing and resolving one's practice in a gradated sort of way... more of a process of continual refinement, until all subtle residues evaporate from the 'mirror'.

 

Perhaps when you have more time, you may want to check this book http://www.wisdom-bo...t.asp?PID=18670 out. Not saying you need to, but i think it will bring more clarity to the concept (but only if you think its worthwhile, otherwise, please disregard the recommendation).

 

All the best, friend.

 

Hi C T

You know, I don't know much about all of this. I'm just learning about the fine intricacies of the myriad of varieties of Buddhism.

Yes, it appears that Allan Wallace's viewing the mind instructions are from Padmasambhava (I think he borrows from various places, though, because I don't think Dudjom Lingpa is Bon), and I found this out about Padmasambhava:

 

http://www.treasuryo...masambhava/7442

 

Since the beginning of the treasure tradition, around the early twelfth century, scores of biographies have been created, considerably expanding the stories of his life and crediting Padmasambhava with concealing treasure (gter ma) across the Tibetan landscape. This provided the tradition with the conduit between the revealed scripture and the golden age of Imperial sponsorship of Buddhism. Or, in the case of the Bon tradition, Padmasambhava became the link to the Bon that existed prior to Buddhism's arrival in Tibet.

 

and this from the wiki:

Tradition has three doors to Bon's spread, Tazig 'Olm Lung Ring' as the first. Second, the oral history claims Bon began 17,000 years ago in central Asia where Persia succeeded Bon's widespread growth with Islam. Third, is the Zhang Zhung kingdom which was located in western Tibet. Bon historians hold many Central Asian Buddhist antiquities are Bon.

 

So , I guess "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and Alan Wallace's pointing out instructions from Padmasambhava, and the Tenzin Wagyal Rinpoche book called "Healing with Form, Energy and Light" are all Bon.

 

I like Bon because Bon in French means "good". And we all know what bonbons are

 

Thank you for the link to the book. I read the web page. At the end it says that it is a restricted book. so I'm pondering about how to get a transmission, or what exactly has to happen. Kind of a pricey book too, but I guess if it has to come all the way from Nepal...

 

The thing that has got me know is that while I was reading the "Healing with Form, Energy and Light" book today, specifically when I was reading about how the five lights/everything are/is sacred, my heart opened up and I could see the world (my living room) as if all individual objects were lit up like under a black light. It is some kind of 'heart viewing' or something. Kind of like a kundalini episode but without the overload.

 

So, now, I've spent the day going back and forth from normal viewing to heart viewing the sacred elements and the wonderful manifestations they perform. So, I don't know what I should do. I've lost the thick white light in my breath meditations, now I only have this open luminous space which i think is the vacuity of mind being lit up by the substrate consciousness..

 

I kind of like the Bon because it incoporates the heart, the channels, visions, tummo and everything I'm familiar with, and most importantly, the heart. I'm not in a part of the world where I can drive to visit the gurus to get transmissions, (and I have a regular job to maintain) so i guess I'll just have to visit them astrally for now..

 

Thank you very much for your response.

 

Best of luck on your journey.

 

TI

Edited December 29, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Creation]

Do you know if he uses "alaya" as an abbreviation of alayavijnana, or does he distinguish between these two? In "Stilling the Mind" he emphasized distinguishing alayavijnana and dharamakaya, so maybe he just is using shorter terms for the same concepts?

Ah, an endnote to "Dreaming Yourself Awake" has answered my question. He is faithful to the Dzogchen map which distinguishes alayavijnana, alaya/kungzhi, and gzhi/primordial ground, but he lumps alaya and alayavijnana together for simplicity's sake.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Creation

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi C T

 

...

Perhaps when you have more time, you may want to check this book http://www.wisdom-bo...t.asp?PID=18670 out. Not saying you need to, but i think it will bring more clarity to the concept (but only if you think its worthwhile, otherwise, please disregard the recommendation).

 

All the best, friend.

 

I just received my shipment today all the way from Nepal! That's right, my copy of Ground, Path, and Fruition came in today.

 

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=18670

 

I must say, I have never seen a book which contains such excellent explicit instructions.

I even got a shock/shower of tingles, when I first picked up the package.

 

Also, I've discovered an excellent page on Pointing Out Instruction. That's what I like about the wiki, it presents both sides of the story. It seems there is a break in the Buddhist sects about the idea that the transmission is necessary.

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing-out_instruction

 

The pointing-out instruction is said to be the direct introduction to the nature of mind in the Tibetan Buddhist lineages of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen. In these traditions, a "root guru" (S. mūlaguru, Wylie: rtsa-ba'i bla-ma, pronounced "tsawey lama") is the master who gives the "pointing-out instruction" in such a way that the disciple successfully recognizes the "nature of mind."

The tradition of conferring such instructions outside of the context of formal abhiṣeka (empowerment) is unique to the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages. Whether or not such instructions are valid without the formal abhiṣeka has historically been a point of contention with the more conservative Gelug and Sakya lineages. The pointing-out instruction is often equated with the "fourth" or ghanta abhiṣeka of more formal vajrayana empowerment.

 

 

I would much rather learn about these things, that my viewpoint about the need for transmission is reflected in the Gelug and Sakya lineages, from non-biased writings which present both sides of the arguments, rather than from a$$holes like Alwayson and his cloneys who abuse you and think there is some kind of battle to win.

 

Anyway, thank you for recommending this book. I appreciate it.

 

All the best.

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

In the end Jeff said "I am sorry, but Feeling with the heart is not a technique that can be taught."

 

Along with his previous statement "Feeling with the heart is very hard to describe with words", I conclude he is full of shit.

 

Hi Alwayson,

You know, what you have done here is to take Jeff's private PM to you and posted it on the forum. Did Jeff give you his permission to do so?

 

I was reading this on the Dharma Wheel, the other day...

 

You are lucky that you betrayed his confidence at TTB, instead of the Dharma Wheel because had you done that on the Dharma Wheel, you would have been automatically suspended for 7 days.

 

These are the rules at the Dharma Wheel forum:

 

link: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=3591

6. Private Messages (PM's)

 

We respect individual members right to privacy when sending Private Messages (PM's). Anyone posting the content of a PM in the forums without getting prior permission from the sender will receive an immediate seven day suspension to give the staff team time to review the situation and to decide whether any further action is to be taken.

 

 

 

TI

[Creation]

 

I just received my shipment today all the way from Nepal! That's right, my copy of Ground, Path, and Fruition came in today.

 

Isn't that a restricted book?

[Pero]

Also, I've discovered an excellent page on Pointing Out Instruction. That's what I like about the wiki, it presents both sides of the story. It seems there is a break in the Buddhist sects about the idea that the transmission is necessary.

 

 

I would much rather learn about these things, that my viewpoint about the need for transmission is reflected in the Gelug and Sakya lineages, from non-biased writings which present both sides of the arguments, rather than from a$$holes like Alwayson and his cloneys who abuse you and think there is some kind of battle to win.

 

 

Actually it's not saying that Kagyu or Nyingma don't think transmission is necessary. It just says that they consider a pointing out can be giving without the context of a formal Vajrayana empowerment, while Sakya and Gelug don't. All of them hink a transmission (which pointing out is) is necessary, there's no debate about it.

[Jeff]

Regarding the "new age concept" of "feeling with the heart", it is more a fruit of practices than something one practices. But, in essence, I can show anyone who has mastered Tummo how to do it.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[C T]

 

Anyway, thank you for recommending this book. I appreciate it.

 

All the best.

TI

No worries TI. May it bring you immense benefit. And do keep us up to par with your realizations!

[Tibetan_Ice]

Isn't that a restricted book?

 

Hi Creation

Let's play a quiz, sort of a game for all the "Buddhists" who come from Dharma Wheel..

 

It's called "who said this?"

 

All this business of "restricted books" is elitist bullshit. Gyurme Dorje's translation of Longchenpa's commentary of Guhyagarbha is avaialble for free and to anyone with a browser.

 

Every classical Dzogchen text can be read by anyone who knows Tibetan and can downloaded for free from TBRC.

 

The time has passed for so called "restricted translations".

 

While I respect the right of a given terton to maintain brand control over his treasures, in terms of classical literature, there should be no more "restricted" texts. Its a bunch of bullshit, and these days it is perpetuated mostly by westerners.

 

...

 

You can read all about togal on the internet.

 

I own many texts about togal, hundreds of them. No one asked me for my credentials to buy them. Many I downloaded. Others I bought in Tibet. Others I had shipped from India.

 

It is appalling that books in Tibetan that freely available to anyone with a buck can are "restricted" in English.

 

Things will be changing soon, I guarantee it.

 

 

?

 

TI

[konchog uma]

who else

 

which is funny because his root lama (Norbu Rinpoche) sells a ton of restricted books

 

but i agree with that sentiment, and pretty much believe in the idea of self-secrecy

[Creation]

Hi Creation

Let's play a quiz, sort of a game for all the "Buddhists" who come from Dharma Wheel..

 

It's called "who said this?"

Given the bite I sensed in your post, I suspect you misinterpreted my intention in asking. My intention was not to accuse you of wrongdoing. Instead, I wondered if there was any issue with you ordering the book.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Creation

[Tibetan_Ice]

Given the bite I sensed in your post, I suspect you misinterpreted my intention in asking. My intention was not to accuse you of wrongdoing. Instead, I wondered if there was any issue with you ordering the book.

Hi Creation,

You know, you are a fairly literate person. From viewing some posts you have written, I would say "above average".

 

I think if you wanted to know if there was any issue, you would have written down that question instead of "Isn't that a restricted book?" LOL...

 

Sorry, I'm so used to being attacked on this subforum that I've forgotten to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

I ordered the book through Amazon, paid the $50.00 plus shipping, and they sent it to me, straight from Nepal.

 

I do not see why the book is restricted, other than it seems like a ploy to charge more. If you asked me about content, I would say that you can get the same content from Eckhart Tolle (being in the present moment), Tenzin Wangyal, Alan Wallace, Dudjom Lingpa and Padmasambhava. Nothing really new in there. But, the package had some really cool Nepaleese stamps on it!

 

And, the books says that there is a baby rigpa, and a mother rigpa too..

 

It is a good book. Lots of detail about meditation techniques. I would recommend it to advanced practitioners.

 

TI

[Creation]

I think if you wanted to know if there was any issue, you would have written down that question instead of "Isn't that a restricted book?" LOL...

LOL indeed. Sometimes I am deliberately vague just to see what kind of responses I get, and then clarify afterwards.

 

If I were to hazard a guess, the book is restricted because it consists of oral teachings that were only given to those with a personal connection to Rinpoche, and only ever written down for the benefit of those students that can't see him on a regular basis. There is definitely some logic in this, from my perspective. (Note that the quote you posted doesn't cover this case).

 

But to those who have the ability to feel out the karmic repercussions of their actions, and from such a place are willing to take full responsibly for what they do, who can say "You must follow this rule"? Surely not me.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Creation

[Tibetan_Ice]

LOL indeed. Sometimes I am deliberately vague just to see what kind of responses I get, and then clarify afterwards.

 

If I were to hazard a guess, the book is restricted because it consists of oral teachings that were only given to those with a personal connection to Rinpoche, and only ever written down for the benefit of those students that can't see him on a regular basis. There is definitely some logic in this, from my perspective. (Note that the quote you posted doesn't cover this case).

 

But to those who have the ability to feel out the karmic repercussions of their actions, and from such a place are willing to take full responsibly for what they do, who can say "You must follow this rule"? Surely not me.

 

Hi Creation

Ahem,, did you just take off you sheep's clothing? That's a pretty big word there, "karma"..

 

 

Here is the official word on the reason for Secrecy:

 

link: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=18670

 

 

The Need for Secrecy

 

In general, the teachings in here contain the profound instructions of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen practice.

For this reason alone, the book is not published on the bookstands. It is available only to students who have heard these teachings in person, which is the only way that these teachings should be presented, according to the seals of secrecy placed on them by the teaching itself.

 

In particular, the profound upadeśha of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen practice are contained here. They are very special, very secret. If these instructions are bandied about, which is one thing that happens when books containing them are published in the open marketplace, the instructions in them lose their power for everyone and even the system of teaching loses its ability to bring students into the reality that it is designed to do.Therefore, as Tsoknyi Rinpoche clearly states every time he gives these teachings, you have the obligation not to disseminate the material in this book and not to discuss it except with others who have already had the oral teaching. It is in your hands. If you protect these profound instructions, they will keep their power for some time

yet, and others will be able to benefit from them. If not, they will soon be lost.

 

May there be goodness!

Tony Duff,

Swayambunath,

Nepal

17th January, 2006

 

 

Gee, I didn't think that publicizing truth made the truth any less potent. Nor does it cause the truth to be lost.

There are so many teachers that have published books about Dzogchen and Mahamudra... are they responsible for degrading the instructions? Is that what "The Flight of the Garuda" is doing? Are Alan Wallace, Osho, Eckhart Tolle, Padmasambhava, Dudjom Lingpa etc etc etc all causing the degradation of the teachings? Because, some of those teachers' instructions are the same instructions as are found in Tsokyni's book. (present moment, stopping, using anger, shocks ... )

 

Further, I am glad that this book is restricted. Any book that advises a person to drink alcohol in order to help them realize rigpa, in my mind, is not acceptable. I did not find that much original content in the book. Upon second reading, I have actually found that once I got over the "restricted book" enamoring, the content is self-contradictory in places, confusing and somewhat mystifying. For example, telling someone to get as angry as to want to kill someone in order to dissolve that state just to become aware of rigpa, is, in my opinion, not a healthy practice. Osho mentions the same practice in his "Book of Secrets". ( I don't like Osho and don't recommend him, but I did read his book).

 

Also, the book cautions against the practice of Thogal because there is a possibility that the visions may be taken to be real, causing attachment and ill effects.. Kind of a dissapointment. There is only one page on Thogal.

 

Believe me, there is allot more I could say about the book..

 

I kind of regret having spent $50.00 on this book. It reminded me of when I was a teenager, going to a show just because it was 'restricted'. Meanwhile, the movie was second rate, but it did expose some skin.. I suppose that was good enough at the time..

 

And, by the way, karma is empty too. If you want to grasp at that word, then good luck.

 

TI

Edited January 27, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice