Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

http://theworsthorse.com/2013/01/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoches-social-media-guidelines-for-so-called-vajrayana-students/

[konchog uma]

dzongar khentse says we shouldn't talk about dzogchen or mahamudra in a way that feeds our egos, but they are not secret in the same way that tantric practices are secret are they?

 

if i ask a question to other dzogchen students in order to dispel confusion or gain understanding, is that also seen as inappropriate?

[RongzomFan]

dzongar khentse says we shouldn't talk about dzogchen or mahamudra in a way that feeds our egos, but they are not secret in the same way that tantric practices are secret are they?

 

 

Are you kidding?

 

Dzogchen and Mahamudra are the most secret.

Edited January 30, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

http://theworsthorse.com/2013/01/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoches-social-media-guidelines-for-so-called-vajrayana-students/

 

 

bump

[konchog uma]

Are you kidding?

 

Dzogchen and Mahamudra are the most secret.

 

no not kidding, just relatively new to the study of both.

 

my question was, is it inappropriate to talk about dzogchen in public as a student? what about the mass of activity of dzogchen community on dharmawheel and other sites? and other talk of it. What about sincere students who have questions and don't want to pester their teachers...

 

it dzongar khentse says keep it to yourself, is that just his opinion? Can you clarify the appropriate and inappropriate times to talk about dzogchen and mahamudra?

[RongzomFan]

no not kidding, just relatively new to the study of both.

 

my question was, is it inappropriate to talk about dzogchen in public as a student? what about the mass of activity of dzogchen community on dharmawheel and other sites? and other talk of it. What about sincere students who have questions and don't want to pester their teachers...

 

it dzongar khentse says keep it to yourself, is that just his opinion? Can you clarify the appropriate and inappropriate times to talk about dzogchen and mahamudra?

 

 

Yeah but in the "mass of activity" noone ever speaks of secret shit. People are pretty good about self-policing.

[JustARandomPanda]

Just wanted to thank Konchog for the OP link.

[RongzomFan]

The talk that goes on this forum would be way beyond what is tolerated elsewhere. Furthermore, most of you are not even initiates.

[RongzomFan]

Can you clarify the appropriate and inappropriate times to talk about dzogchen and mahamudra?

 

 

You don't talk about it. See:

 

http://theworsthorse.com/2013/01/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoches-social-media-guidelines-for-so-called-vajrayana-students/

 

 

"Don’t talk about profound/secret teachings you may have received: Some people seem to find it fashionable to hang words like “Dzogchen” and “Mahamudra” in their mouths. If you have received profound instructions, it is good to follow those instructions and keep them to yourself."

Edited January 30, 2013 by alwayson

[C T]

Yeah, towards the end, Rinpoche also mentioned, with great emphasis, not to degrade the Theravadin and Mahayana foundations, which, you, Alwayson, have a tendency to do.

 

But, anyway, sincere thanks for posting that link. Its very appropriate.

 

--------------------

 

What is asked in sincerity is not breaking samaya.

 

What is received, with sincerity and gratefulness, is also not breaking samaya.

 

What is given, sincerely and with good intention, is also not breaking samaya.

 

-------------------

 

There are obviously many philosophical aspects of Dzogchen and Mahamudra which can be discussed openly. If not, sites like Berzin archives and many other authentic Tibetan schools would not themselves propagate them openly. What's not to be discussed is clearly mentioned by Rinpoche.

[RongzomFan]

Yeah, towards the end, Rinpoche also mentioned, with great emphasis, not to degrade the Theravadin and Mahayana foundations, which, you, Alwayson, have a tendency to do.

 

 

I don't agree with that one part though.

[C T]

I don't agree with that one part though.

 

 

Really?

[konchog uma]

You don't talk about it. See:

 

http://theworsthorse.com/2013/01/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoches-social-media-guidelines-for-so-called-vajrayana-students/

 

 

"Don’t talk about profound/secret teachings you may have received: Some people seem to find it fashionable to hang words like “Dzogchen” and “Mahamudra” in their mouths. If you have received profound instructions, it is good to follow those instructions and keep them to yourself."

 

in one post you say that everyone who talks about it just leaves secret stuff out, and then in the next you say you don't talk about it. but the quote you cite says dont talk about instructions you have received, or "hang the words from your mouth" which in the context of the article means dont talk about it to boost your own ego or show off like youre some kind of higher practitioner. lol

 

confusing.

 

i will ask my teachers. thanks tho ???

[RongzomFan]

in one post you say that everyone who talks about it just leaves secret stuff out, and then in the next you say you don't talk about it. but the quote you cite says dont talk about instructions you have received, or "hang the words from your mouth" which in the context of the article means dont talk about it to boost your own ego or show off like youre some kind of higher practitioner. lol

 

confusing.

 

i will ask my teachers. thanks tho ???

 

Stop putting your own spin on things. It says very clearly not to talk about Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

 

Yes of course you should ask your own teachers, if you have some.

[konchog uma]

its not spin its called context. He says not to talk about teachings that one has received. Thats obvious. He doesnt say that its inappropriate to talk about them in every possible context.

 

but thanks i'll stick to the advice of my teachers. My one did say it would be best to keep it minimal but in the case of writing on a forum to ask about books to read or teachers to study under, its not a violation of samaya. He said thogal is secret and other parts of ati yoga are secret, but that dzogchen has outer inner and secret aspects. Having outer aspects, it is not forbidden to mention dzogchen. He still advised to be careful not to talk about it in an attempt to make on seem like an advanced practitioner or boost ones ego in other ways that lack merit.

 

My other teacher is in nepal so i'll have to wait for email response.

 

thank you for sharing the words of dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, i find them to be helpful. I'll let you know what my other teacher says

[Tibetan_Ice]

Alwayson,

Decided to come out of the pit to prod a few more heathens?

 

And I see it is "do as I say and not as I do", eh?

 

You said:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26716-starting-again-from-the-beginning/?p=398982

 

 

I don't give a shit about the teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

And then you quote a link from Dzongar Khyentse Rinpoche about "Social Media Guidelines for so called vajrayana students:

http://theworsthorse.com/2013/01/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoches-social-media-guidelines-for-so-called-vajrayana-students/

 

On that page, it says:

Be respectful to others: Without Theravada and Mahayana as foundation, there would be no Vajrayana. It would be completely foolish of Vajrayana practitioners to look down on or show disdain towards Theravada and Mahayana. If you think attacking other Buddhists will improve Buddhism, do a service for Buddhism, take aim at your own ego and biasedness instead.

- Don’t create disharmony: Try to be the one who brings harmony into the sangha community with your online chatter, instead of trouble and disputes.

 

 

You create disharmony. You insult people. You aren't respectful. Why do you do that? Are you trying to emulate Dzongar Jamyang Khentse?

 

It is funny that you quoted Dzongar Jamyang Khentse.

 

I think he has poor judgement. After all, he likes Osho???.. and believes that enlightenment is attained by destroying the ego, and by dessimating the person. He wishes he had enough guts to own 93 Rolls Royces?? That is the exception, not the norm. Some people may be enlightened but their conceptual/rational minds seemed to have been left out of the process..

 

link: http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j31/dzongsar.asp?page=2

 

COHEN: And you said that the teacher who “crushes your pride and makes this worldly life completely miserable is something that you ask for. He is the assassin, he is the man or woman whom you have hired to completely dismantle you.”

 

DZONGSAR: You may not realize that's what you're doing, but that's the idea—to dismantle everything: your identity, everything. And it's not like dismantling one big habit. It changes. Let's say today I would like to be stroked. Then a teacher should not stroke me. Or maybe today I would like to be beaten. Then maybe I should be stroked. So that's why this is actually beyond abuse and not abuse. If somebody bites you or beats you and handcuffs you, that's a kind of abuse, isn't it? But what I'm talking about is ultimate abuse. At the same time, abuse phenomena only exist if you are still clinging to transitory phenomena as permanent and real. If you don't, there is nothing to be abused. But that's difficult, really difficult.

COHEN: In that case, the teacher's work would be done.

 

DZONGSAR: Yes, of course. But the kind of student we're talking about doesn't exist. And that kind of teacher doesn't exist, either. Teachers don't have that kind of courage. I don't have it. I may be a teacher, but I don't have that kind of courage because I love my reputation. Who wants to be referred to as an abuser? I don't. I am a sycophant. I try to go along with what people think. If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that. Rajneesh had the guts to have ninety-three Rolls Royces. I call it guts. One Rolls Royce is one thing. Even two or three—but ninety-three is guts! And I don't have the guts, the confidence. I like Rajneesh very much. I like him much better than Krishnamurti. Many of his words are quite good, and I can see why the Westerners would like him.

 

Gee, I don't like Osho and I'm a westerner.. What a low opinion Dzongsar has of us westerners.

 

I have not taken any vows, except to dedicate all my merit from past lives and present life to all sentient beings. I do not have a Buddhist Guru/lama nor do I claim to be Vajrayana student. I am not bound to any Buddhist vows of secrecy.

 

I for one detest secrecy when it comes to authentic spiritual teachings. If someone knows how to become enlightened and keeps it from the rest of the world, how does that help anyone? However, I am a believer that one should keep his word.

 

There is hope yet.

 

http://www.chammaling.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=59

Dzogchen in the Context of Bön Spiritual Practice

Dzogchen is the highest spiritual tradition in Bon. In the past, the practitioners who knew and practiced Dzogchen in Tibet were few, even within the Bon and Nyingma traditions. One reason for this was that it was not easy to receive these teachings: they were kept very secret, few masters gave them, and to few students. Even in current times, lay Bon adepts in Tibet habitually spend a lot of time performing the nine preliminary (ngondro) practices and the powa, while monks who stay in monasteries engage mainly in intellectual and philosophical study and debate, and recitation of ritual and liturgical texts.

Many masters insisted (and many masters now continue to insist) that practitioners complete the ngondro practices before being given Dzogchen teachings. These preliminary practices are described in the Nyams rgyud rgyal ba'i phyang krid. Each of these nine practices must be performed one hundred thousand times. The nine practices are:

1. The generation of compassion for all sentient beings
2. Taking refuge
3. Offering the mandala
4. Meditation on impermanence
5. Confession of transgressions
6. Making Prostrations
7. Guru yoga, merging the mind with the enlightened mind of the guru visualized in front of oneself
8. Offering prayers
9. Receiving blessings

However, when I received the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud teaching, Lopon Sangye Tenzin maintained that although keeping the Dzogchen teaching secret may have been suitable in ancient times, in our own troubled times it is better to give them more openly and freely (but without lessening their value in this way) otherwise there is the danger that they will die out.

 

So quit trying to lord you false sense of authority over everyone else and impose your values on lesser mortals.

 

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

So quit trying to lord you false sense of authority over everyone else and impose your values on lesser mortals.

 

 

TI

 

 

Its not 'my values'. These are pretty standard values across Vajrayana.

[RongzomFan]

It is funny that you quoted Dzongar Jamyang Khentse.

 

 

The point is not Dzongar Jamyang Khentse. These are pretty standard rules across Vajrayana.

 

I'm referring to the secrecy rules.

Edited January 31, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

You create disharmony. You insult people. You aren't respectful. Why do you do that?

 

You constantly insult the tradition of Vajrayana. You are the one who is not respectful.

[RongzomFan]

nor do I claim to be Vajrayana student.

 

 

Yet you claim you know Vajrayana topics better than actual Vajrayana students:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/20795-tummo/?p=394110

 

 

Even though you have been proved wrong on beginner's Buddhist topics over and over again, all the while creating disharmony:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25953-breath-meditation-experience/page-4

Edited January 31, 2013 by alwayson

[konchog uma]

the teacher who did respond to my questions added that traditionally in tibet dzogchen was secret, and that at the time of sri simha's transmission to vairocana it was illegal in oddiyana and was practiced in total secrecy. He said that since the destruction of traditional tibetan culture and the transfer to the west of vajrayana/dzogchen it has become more open, hence public webcasts of introductory transmission and other more mainstream appearance of dzogchen. He said that tantric vows did not apply to it, that it is not considered a form of tantra. He said the most important thing is whether a person is saying things about dzogchen in order to learn in a humble way, or whether they are fostering the false refuge of ego by acting like a dzogchenpa when they are not.

 

He repeated that it is not forbidden to mention dzogchen in public or on the internet. He said in his experience, the more sincere a practitioner is, the less they talk about it.

 

my other teacher still hasnt responded, but can speak from the point of view of mahamudra. When he gets back to me i will let you know.

Edited January 31, 2013 by konchog uma

[C T]

Thank you, K Uma, for taking the trouble to seek a second opinion from your teachers.

[konchog uma]

Thank you, K Uma, for taking the trouble to seek a second opinion from your teachers.

 

sure. My teacher who is in Nepal right now had a monastery education and is more traditional, so he might say something different. I look forward to his email but no idea how long that will take

[konchog uma]

according to lopon malcolm, the specific practices of dzogchen and mahamudra should not be discussed with those who have not received initiation or empowerment. He didn't say that mentioning them was forbidden, he said that talking about practices we have received is forbidden. (he also said that the four yogas are okay to discuss).

Edited February 6, 2013 by konchog uma

[Tibetan_Ice]

You constantly insult the tradition of Vajrayana. You are the one who is not respectful.

 

*** edited expletive****

 

You are a sad reflection of arrogant humanity with your pseudo scholarly approach and ignorance.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice