Introduction to Dzogchen Retreat with B Alan Wallace

[RongzomFan]

Before jumping to conclusions, you should sit down and actually think what it is he's trying to convey in his posts in that thread. I'm sure it will make more sense, once you go over it a few times.

 

 

Jeff understands I'm sure. It just doesn't fit into his New Age paradigm.

[RongzomFan]

P.s. will respond to your other question later today.

 

Ok

Edited December 14, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

 

It's not a good idea to cherry-pick quotes without proper context in order to support your thesis. Can you provide the paragraphs that they were quoted from?

 

For instance:

 

Take what I type with a grain of salt: Reading these quotes looks like it is talking about the 3 aspects of the base (which could also possibly be looked at as the 3 kayas of Dharma, Sambo, Nirmana.) In this case the energy/compassion of the base is the meaning of the inseparable display of kadag and lhun grub (primordial purity and spontaneous presence.)

 

This last quote:

 

Sounds like it is talking about siddhis and the development of the energy body through the means of anuyoga and HYT.

 

Understanding "energy" is path independent. It is about understanding the nature of existence/illusion. The quotes are from the overview (part one) by CNN.

 

CNN states in (page 31)" Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State"

 

The energy of the individual is closely linked to the external energy, and each can influence the other.

...

Working from the other way round, It is possible to influence the external energy, carrying out what are called "miracles". Such activity is actually the result of having control of one's own energy, through which one obtains the capacity of power over external phenomena.

---------

 

It is an excellent book (as are all of the CNN books I have read).

 

[Jeff]

 

Jeff understands I'm sure. It just doesn't fit into his New Age paradigm.

 

Yes, I understand SJ's points. I just disagree as to the meaning of the texts.

 

On New Age... It is sad that the youngsters have forgotten to true meaning and depth of a primordial path.

 

[RongzomFan]

will respond to your other question later today.

 

So what happened to this??

[RongzomFan]

On New Age... It is sad that the youngsters have forgotten to true meaning and depth of a primordial path.

 

 

 

Typical pattern since Dharma Wheel. You make some vague New Age statements about energy, and then refuse to explain it. I'll be honest, I don't even think YOU know what YOU mean.

[Jeff]

 

Can you further explain your New Age views? I can see auras, but I certainly don't mix that up or conflate that with Dzogchen.

 

The perception of energy/light is independent of paths. As CNN says "Samsara and nirvana are nothing other than the dualistic aspect of one single essence manifesting energy. The energy itself is in fact inseparable from the manifestation," While all paths may be different and use different words, the energy of manifestation (existence) is consistent. Hence, energy/light and the depth of being able to percieve through the illusion becomes universal at the equivalent level of understanding.

 

All primordial paths (like Dzogchen) are faster because they transmit "knowledge" at a deeper level of subtlety than words or the mind can convey. At the deepest levels, a transmission of "light" is used to convey the nature of "light". At the "gross" level, normal words or books will do. Middle level, "mind" to "mind".

 

In your case, viewing auras is part of percieving the energy of "mind". Seeing an aura is your mind "translating" mind energy flow it notices coming from the other person. Have you experience astral travel yet? If you can clearly read all auras, you should be able to tell who is a legit teacher. It is common for "aura readers" to see a true teacher as a fuzzy white light (no body or aura). This is because they have started building the "body of light", which is beyond astral perception.

 

As I have said earlier, I have found there to be four basic types of energy/light. Each is just a "deeper" range of perception/realization of manifesting energy/existence. The fourth is essentially the "raw stuff" and beyond reality/existence/time. A rainbow body is basically someone who has "mastered" the raw stuff. Allen Wallace's description (audio 13) of finding/accessing the secret bindu of the heart is the beginning of the 3 (or light level). in Hindu terms, it is called the second chamber of the heart or sometimes the 8th chakra.

 

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

 

So what happened to this??

 

What happened to my "OK" for later today?

 

:)

 

P.s. feel free to ask follow up to above if you were looking for something specific.

[Jeff]

 

Can you please post the page or some paragraphs before or following the above quote? Because it sounds like what I said above about the development of the energy body and manifesting siddhis.

 

Sorry, I don't have an online version of the book. Also, won't have a computer until Monday (using my IPad). The chapter is called "The individual: Body, Voice, Mind". In the above paragraph it also talks about how one can become sick if ones energy becomes disturbed.

 

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Creation]

Hi Simple Jack.

 

I would love to find out I am wrong about Malcolm's understanding of subtle energy, but what you quoted is more support for my view of his view

 

The description of the four elements describe all material states.....A channel is a channel: veins, arteries and nerves. You can add to this the lymphatic system, though they are considered to act as a support for bring moisture to the nervous system among their other functions.

 

A cakra in this view is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves. You can readily see five such clusters in the body. There are many more.

 

The channels we visualize are just a method -- why? because when we are visualizing ourselves as a deity, we visualize our bodies as completely hollow, made of light, with no internal organs.

 

The explicitly stated point of view of Tibetan Medicine is that the avadhūtī is all channels of air i.e. arteries; the rasanā is all channels of fire i.e. the blood vessels, and the lalanā all channels of water i.e. the nerves in the body.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for Malcolm's enormous erudition, which is why I am even bothering to discuss his opinion here. But when Jeff talks about certain things, it is clear that they do not fit in to Malcom's worldview, which causes communication breakdown between them.

 

EDIT:

There is one other thread where I recall Malcolm giving purely physical explanations for energetic phenomena:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4967

These nadis (aka ba men rva) are simply poetic descriptions of the optical sheath which houses the optic nerve.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Creation

[Jeff]

 

I'll be reading about it here http://books.google....epage&q&f=false.

 

Thanks for the link. If you have the time, I recommend the entire book. It also gives a very good overview why Dzogchen (Primoridal paths) are "faster".

 

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

 

Meh, I don't care enough to try and point out where the discrepancies are stemming from. Honestly, I don't know why people obsess or make a big deal about chakras, energy channels or whatever.

 

IMO, focusing on that aspect of the path can become a hindrance in the long run. That stuff is low level compared to the actual purpose of the spiritual path.

 

Then again, this is coming from someone who prefers Ch'an over Tibetan Buddhism, so take it with a grain of salt

 

Sounds good. Any path that ultimately leads you deep into the heart (or bindu or 2nd chamber or 8th chakra...) is a good one...

 

[Pero]

Thanks Pero. Where are ChNNR's schedule of upcoming teachings posted? and why do you think its better to attend retreat via webcast than the worldwide transmission? I have my own thoughts but i would like to hear yours, thanks

Here is Rinpoche's schedule:

http://www.dzogchen.it/CNN-shcedule_20120414.pdf

Don't know if all retreats will be webcasted, but most will.

I think it's really hard to know what it's all about and what to do after from just attending a WWT. While during a teaching retreat Rinpoche gives explanations and advice, so everything is much clearer.

 

I downloaded some a good while back, and had nightmares until i deleted them from my hard drive. And in the nightmares, beings told me that i was having the nightmares because i was messing with those books! (sorry rinpoche!)

Haha....

 

Guruyoga is an outline of the WWT format, and its not something that someone who knew nothing about what they were doing, just tuning in to a free webcast, could really do. It certainly seems like one would need the explanation.

I think you can learn from the book, the problem is just that it's hard to learn how to pronounce mantras from just that and impossible to learn the melodies. Though first time you could always just try to recite along and/or keep the meaning in mind. BTW, I think what's done on WWT's is now posted on the webcast page.

[konchog uma]

thanks for all that pero, helpful indeed

 

song of the vajra is on the web, and i am sorta familiar with tibetan melodies.. familiar enough to just pick it up as i go along. My tibetan pronunciation and syllable emphasis is also a little practiced.. so i am not just jumping in cold. But we will see. I will have all of 2013 to listen to rinpoche's webcasts and benefit from his transmissions, so i am not really worried about getting it right on the first time.. on top of that, the WWTs are open to all so in that regard i have the rest of my life to benefit from them. Eventually i will get it! hahaha

[Pero]

Hi Pero

And why not? Doesn't it transcend time and space?

Hi TI,

 

Because Rinpoche said so multiple times. I actually think it could be possible though. But what I think is irrelevant since the teacher giving the transmission is saying otherwise and we should act according to the teacher and not according to our own ideas.

 

Your statement implies, and not that subtly, that a person should not be reading the book without first having had the transmission to introduce the nature of the mind.

 

What a load of crap.

Well, it wasn't a load of crap to teachers and students in the past. Dilgo Khyentse too for example restricted it to those who have at least received direct introduction.

 

So if Garab Dorje got his transmission by contacting the Sambhogakaya, why can't anyone else do that by themselves?

And why should the fact that Garab Dorje obtained his "transmission on his own" prevent others from also doing that?

You know it's always funny how people don't really think through this kind of an example. Garab Dorje wasn't an ordinary human like you and me. I think he wasn't even human actually but a Buddha from birth. At the age of 8 the dude recited a Dzogchen tantra and also defeated a bunch of learned panditas in debate. ....

But yeah, you can get transmission on your own... After a lot of hard work and probably not just one life. And after already receiving transmission from someone else haha (unless you're some kind of emanation already).

 

EDIT: BTW TI, Shabkar himself says in his book that you need to receive the instructions from a teacher....

Edited December 14, 2012 by Pero

[RongzomFan]

The perception of energy/light is independent of paths. As CNN says "Samsara and nirvana are nothing other than the dualistic aspect of one single essence manifesting energy. The energy itself is in fact inseparable from the manifestation," While all paths may be different and use different words, the energy of manifestation (existence) is consistent. Hence, energy/light and the depth of being able to percieve through the illusion becomes universal at the equivalent level of understanding.

 

All primordial paths (like Dzogchen) are faster because they transmit "knowledge" at a deeper level of subtlety than words or the mind can convey. At the deepest levels, a transmission of "light" is used to convey the nature of "light". At the "gross" level, normal words or books will do. Middle level, "mind" to "mind".

 

In your case, viewing auras is part of percieving the energy of "mind". Seeing an aura is your mind "translating" mind energy flow it notices coming from the other person. Have you experience astral travel yet? If you can clearly read all auras, you should be able to tell who is a legit teacher. It is common for "aura readers" to see a true teacher as a fuzzy white light (no body or aura). This is because they have started building the "body of light", which is beyond astral perception.

 

As I have said earlier, I have found there to be four basic types of energy/light. Each is just a "deeper" range of perception/realization of manifesting energy/existence. The fourth is essentially the "raw stuff" and beyond reality/existence/time. A rainbow body is basically someone who has "mastered" the raw stuff. Allen Wallace's description (audio 13) of finding/accessing the secret bindu of the heart is the beginning of the 3 (or light level). in Hindu terms, it is called the second chamber of the heart or sometimes the 8th chakra.

 

All of buddhism, even theravada, acknowleges mundane psychic abilities. Anyone can develop these abilities through meditation. See jhanas. Noone acknowledges them as liberative.

[Pero]

My comment above was in relation to TI's statement to Alwayson about the "possibility" of recieving a direct transmission from Sambhogkaya. It is definitely theorectically possible, but would require someone to be the equal of the Mahasiddhas. But, even in Dzogchen there have been at least 84 of them.

Those aren't from Dzogchen, they're Mahamudra Mahasiddhas.

 

You may not find discussing the theory interesting, but for me it is vastly more interesting than the average TaoBums fare. Additionally, Creation has interestingly pointed out above that many senior Dzogchen practioners do not yet perceive any form of energy at all. For me, this calls into question their ability to be able to interpret the meaning of ancient texts.

See this is your problem. You are interpreting the texts according to your own ideas and are unable to comprehend that what something means to you is not necessarily the same thing as the meaning the text intended. Even if you look at Buddhism only, the same words in sutra can have a completely different meaning in tantra and a different meaning yet again in Dzogchen. Sometimes even the same word in Dzogchen can have different meanings depending on more specific context.

So while you are interpreting Dzogchen words according to your own ideas, others are following the real meaning taught by teachers of the past. The latter is verified, the former is not. So people will be giving you a hard time when you try to import your personal ideas into Dzogchen teachings.

 

"Wind" is the translation for rlung BTW.

[Pero]

thanks for all that pero, helpful indeed

 

song of the vajra is on the web, and i am sorta familiar with tibetan melodies.. familiar enough to just pick it up as i go along. My tibetan pronunciation and syllable emphasis is also a little practiced.. so i am not just jumping in cold. But we will see. I will have all of 2013 to listen to rinpoche's webcasts and benefit from his transmissions, so i am not really worried about getting it right on the first time.. on top of that, the WWTs are open to all so in that regard i have the rest of my life to benefit from them. Eventually i will get it! hahaha

Yeah of course, I didn't want to make you worried or something haha.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

Because Rinpoche said so multiple times. I actually think it could be possible though. But what I think is irrelevant since the teacher giving the transmission is saying otherwise and we should act according to the teacher and not according to our own ideas.

 

Hi Pero

So why do they advertise on the website that time and space are irrelevant? Who is Rinpoche?

 

Well, it wasn't a load of crap to teachers and students in the past. Dilgo Khyentse too for example restricted it to those who have at least received direct introduction.

You took my statement out of context and now you are making it seem that I am saying the direct introduction is a load of crap.

I am saying that Alwayson's unclear statement, that the book called "The Flight of the Garuda" is only for those who have received introduction. How could it be when there are instructions for self-introduction directly in the book? There was no mention of being a restricted book, like I've seen for the book called "The Cystal Cave".

 

Now I believe that Alwayson meant to say was that Dzogchen practices are only for those who have had the direct transmission of the introduction to mind. But that is not what he wrote.

 

I am in no way denigrating that the tradition of transmission. I would like to receive one myself from Norbu or any Dzogchen master. I have received many transmissions, shaktipat, attunements, and seen many masters on the astral planes. Last night I thought of Norbu, and I saw his vision. It may have been the real thing because after the, the space of conscious golden light in my head opened right up and then it took me 3 hours to fall asleep.

 

But on the same token, I find it strange that nobody seems to be able to stretch their minds, examine that aspect (as Buddha would have said to do), and determine for one's self if it is in fact a neccessity.

 

 

 

You know it's always funny how people don't really think through this kind of an example. Garab Dorje wasn't an ordinary human like you and me. I think he wasn't even human actually but a Buddha from birth. At the age of 8 the dude recited a Dzogchen tantra and also defeated a bunch of learned panditas in debate. ....

But yeah, you can get transmission on your own... After a lot of hard work and probably not just one life. And after already receiving transmission from someone else haha (unless you're some kind of emanation already).

 

EDIT: BTW TI, Shabkar himself says in his book that you need to receive the instructions from a teacher....

 

There are many ways to recognize the Primordial consciousness.. I got my first initiation when I was 16. I was riding my motorcyle and I broadsided a station wagon. As my body flew through the air, I watched the whole scene from 40 feet away. That is how you shatter the substrate consciousness and break through to the other side. That is why, in Zen, they hit you with a stick when you are meditating. There are many methods for breaking through to the other side. Dzogchen is a array of methods of learning how to dissolve the layers gradually, and sometimes shockingly. And I do agree, it would be very nice to have someone with the ability to point out, Yes!!! That is the primordial consciousness!!!

 

If you want to be a purist and belong to the Dzogchen club and restrict your practices, mentality and scope to the generally accepted principles of Dzogchen, I have no problem with that. I am not interested in belonging to clubs or propping up the belief system in order to convince myself of their validity. I would much rather find the truth as I am sure no one club has exclusive rights to it.

 

TI

[Jeff]

All of buddhism, even theravada, acknowleges mundane psychic abilities. Anyone can develop these abilities through meditation. See jhanas. Noone acknowledges them as liberative.

 

I don't see how your point relates to my comments above. I am not describing psychic abilities. I am discussing energy/light, per the previous comments on the CNN text.

 

[Creation]

You raise an interesting point. Given the the excellent books I had read, I had just assumed that was part of the transmissions.

 

You know, I just remembered seeing some old footage of Norbu Rinpoche, perhaps a clip from "My Reincarnation", where he poked fun at Westerners thinking they were going to feel some kind of "vibration" from him. So there is a precedent going all the way back to Rinpoche for not emphasizing "energy". Now, this will require some cup-emptying on my part, because a major part of what my path has consisted of working towards developing the energy body. Not that I will stop developing my energy body, of course.