Zhan Zhuang in Baguazhang/to stand or not to stand

[spiraltao]

While listen to a taoist lineage holder he mentioned that Baguazhang didn't have standing methods. He said bagua has static arm postures. If I understood right most of the bagua postures when done correctly direct the qi to desired locations. ...not really building chi, he said in bagua hte dan tian is for mixing yin/yang lower/upper preheaven/heaven. That is the unification of heaven and man in baguazhang. When both upper and lower halves are connected.

 

My question is, since traditional baguazhang doesn't have standing, does this mean we shoudln't do it? Wang Shujin done it and in Kent Howards Linked Palm DVD he mentions primordial standing, however in Yang Jwing Ming and Master Liang Shou Yu's Baguazhang Theory and Application they make no mention of standing meditation.

 

Would it be counter productive?

 

I can only see benefits from proper ZZ postures.

 

 

Not to mention my favorite, the Kunlun standing double vortex wave that Zerostao showed me,

[GreytoWhite]

Hmmm... interesting, Xie Peiqi's system has an extensive daoyin standing practice. The Lion system standing methods and striking methods are said to change the tendons and ligaments fastest from within their system as well as build strength. Although from what I've read the standing postures are really meant to inform the circle walking.

 

https://vimeo.com/13499485

 

The videos from Liang style expert Zhang Quan Liang include standing postures. Focus on the circle walking versus the standing as far as time investment goes. Liang Zhenpu was very young and only trained with Dong Haichuan for a few years. Mainly he trained with Cheng Tinghua and Yin Fu as well as their various students. Who knows from where the stake exercises originated.

 

Dong Haichuan was known to teach those accomplished in another art, standing stake may have been largely ignored as many of his students would not need to build a kung fu foundation before learning. If one is starting off learning baguazhang with health troubles or a general lack of fitness something like Shaolin jibengong as well as zhan zhuang would be a good idea to help one be able to practice circle walking.

 

JS: Do you think it is necessary to learn Waijia before taking up Neijia?

MR.MA: No matter whether you learn Neijia or Waijia, you should first develop flexibility of legs and waist. Once you have these basics you can make faster progress in Neijia. Hence some kind of Waijia practice - Wushu basics - can be helpful for your Neijia. Of course these basics can be also acquired through pure Neijia practice, but it takes more time. Waijia can be considered a shortcut in learning basics. There is however a difference - flexibility you get through Bagua practice comes out naturally along the practice process and cannot be lost, while in Waijia flexibility of legs comes from regular stretching - once you give up stretching exercises the flexibility decreases very fast - usually after three months without practice the flexibility is gone. In Bagua once you can walk in the Lower Basin (Xia Pan) the flexibility of legs greatly increases.

 

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

 

Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua has standing meditation but it is also heavily influenced by xingyi. It's taught in Ted Mancuso's material.

 

This same question comes up occasionally on Rum Soaked Fist.

 

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13304

 

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13229&start=15

 

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12629

 

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4580

 

If you are struggling with a moving posture on the circle then it may be a good idea to explore that posture in a stationary position to better explore its different aspects without having to focus on footwork.

 

Ultimately though I would just ask your teacher what he thinks of what your training should consist at this time.

[Ish]

Have you tried using the individual palms in the circle walking as zhan zhuang?

[spiraltao]

Hmmm... interesting, Xie Peiqi's system has an extensive daoyin standing practice. The Lion system standing methods and striking methods are said to change the tendons and ligaments fastest from within their system as well as build strength. Although from what I've read the standing postures are really meant to inform the circle walking

 

Yes, I have seen that.

 

 

https://vimeo.com/13499485

 

The videos from Liang style expert Zhang Quan Liang include standing postures. Focus on the circle walking versus the standing as far as time investment goes. Liang Zhenpu was very young and only trained with Dong Haichuan for a few years. Mainly he trained with Cheng Tinghua and Yin Fu as well as their various students. Who knows from where the stake exercises originated.

 

Dong Haichuan was known to teach those accomplished in another art, standing stake may have been largely ignored as many of his students would not need to build a kung fu foundation before learning. If one is starting off learning baguazhang with health troubles or a general lack of fitness something like Shaolin jibengong as well as zhan zhuang would be a good idea to help one be able to practice circle walking.

 

I was looking at ZZ to build up chi.

 

 

JS: Do you think it is necessary to learn Waijia before taking up Neijia?

MR.MA: No matter whether you learn Neijia or Waijia, you should first develop flexibility of legs and waist. Once you have these basics you can make faster progress in Neijia. Hence some kind of Waijia practice - Wushu basics - can be helpful for your Neijia. Of course these basics can be also acquired through pure Neijia practice, but it takes more time. Waijia can be considered a shortcut in learning basics. There is however a difference - flexibility you get through Bagua practice comes out naturally along the practice process and cannot be lost, while in Waijia flexibility of legs comes from regular stretching - once you give up stretching exercises the flexibility decreases very fast - usually after three months without practice the flexibility is gone. In Bagua once you can walk in the Lower Basin (Xia Pan) the flexibility of legs greatly increases.

 

http://www.chinafrom.../machuanxu.html

 

Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua has standing meditation but it is also heavily influenced by xingyi. It's taught in Ted Mancuso's material. JRQ is where our bagua comes from. I thought it was Liang but it is Jiang, lol. ...and yes Ng family version is heavily xingyi influenced.

 

This same question comes up occasionally on Rum Soaked Fist.

 

http://www.rumsoaked...php?f=3&t=13304

 

http://www.rumsoaked...=13229&start=15

 

http://www.rumsoaked...php?f=3&t=12629

 

http://www.rumsoaked....php?f=3&t=4580

 

If you are struggling with a moving posture on the circle then it may be a good idea to explore that posture in a stationary position to better explore its different aspects without having to focus on footwork.

 

Ultimately though I would just ask your teacher what he thinks of what your training should consist at this time.

 

 

 

@Ish-Yes, I mix up the eight mother palms. Also the static arm postures. I started holding just the palms in an embrace the tree fashion, then began to walk with them.

[spiraltao]

The Wu family vibrating palms are great tendon builders!

[i am]

I guess I never know when my teacher is mixing stuff so I don't know if my experience will help you...but in my bagua training, we do "single" and "double gravitational" exercises, which involve holding static standing postures. In single we hold them standing on one leg, double is on both feet. But I don't know if these exercises came specifically from bagua or if he's incorportated them into it because he thinks they're helpful.

 

But a lot of the throws and other things where you're really required to have all your weight on one leg benefit a LOT from standing for extended periods of time, in that position, on one leg (or both legs). You become very solid and rooted in that position, and learn not to overextend or lose your balance.

 

Just my experience.

[joeblast]

there's definitely something to be said for static contraction exercises. although this isnt a lot of it all around, it is absolutely a static exercise for the standing muscles. I picked this up years ago and found the methods to be pretty efficient, even though its not related to martial arts.

 

http://www.precision...ts/train-smart/

 

(although...ultimately most of the techniques I dont use, as this link is specifically about muscle building gains. I already hurt my back with too much muscle on my upper body years ago anyway, I dont need any more mass than I already have...)

Edited December 6, 2012 by joeblast

[Wisdom Seeker]

If you wish to study the style of Bagua that doesn't mention standing, do it. If you wish to study the method of Bagua that includes standing, do it. Each system should include the individual into the equation. It is not cookie-cutter style. Individual flavor will be displayed in any art you choose. You are only adding additional dimensions to your training by including ZZ. ZZ can be trained alone but compliments other styles as well. I believe it lays some important ground work for beginning internal studies and should not be ignored.. I hope this opinion helps.

[i am]

It does. I credit ZZ with very quickly lowering my center of gravity and allowing me to root. Not sure how long it would have taken me to get that, without ZZ. Some people are naturally rooted and have a low center of gravity. Not me. It's changed everything from how I stand, walk, feel inside my body in general.

 

Certainly can't be a bad thing for my bagua.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Celestial]

Wall gaze for nine years straight until you hear the ants scream.

 

Everything else is a JOKE!

[RobB]

When I trained a little BG my teacher said that it could be useful to train any of the 'shapes' (my word not his) (e.g., from the SPC or Mother palms) as standing postures. It gives an opportunity to send the mind inside and try and find the twists and lines of connection inherent to the posture. Then you can try and retain that when you encouter the 'shape' during movement.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[i am]

And that's the point, as I've heard it, with circle walking, or at least one of the points, is that you get to a point where you're walking the circle holding a static posture, and feel as though you're standing still, and it's the room that's moving. You're a center of stillness, not moving at all.

 

For some, like me, knowing how to get into that feeling while moving, comes from really knowing how the posture feels when I'm standing still.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[i am]

Yes, I heard about it, and practice getting the feeling when I'm walking. Haven't got there yet. Honestly I'll probably never practice bagua seriously for a decade. I'm more of a dabbler, when it comes to martial arts. I'm just relating my experience, that standing has helped my bagua. It's cool if you disagree.

 

Of course there's a big difference.

 

I don't see anyone claiming that bagua or taoist circle walking meditation should become a stationary practice, and give up the circle walking. Just whether adding a standing practice to it is helpful.

[Ish]

No need for standing if you train like a warrior...if you train like a mouse then lots of standing are required.

 

Still the journey is a long one, we are dealing with the mind here and as we know the mind goes on and on, and on...in the end you question yourself...what is being a human, really.

 

I ocassionally do ZZ during full moon time for enhanced spiritual sensitivity but nothing that BGZ is not doing already.

 

Have you tried walking more circles before you change direction and gradually lowering your stance (at time, not all the time since lower basin walk is extremely taxing and you basically need to live like a monk, totally dedicated to the art)?

 

Just curious Gerard, have you ever been in a situation where you have tested your internal power from your practice?

[doc benway]

I highly recommend standing, at least until the postures become easy and stable.

It's helped my practice quite a bit though I guess it's possible I would have made equal progress without it - I'll never know.

My teacher recommended it but definitely emphasized walking more.

Some pretty good bagua players have been known to stand...

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2012 by steve