The idea of samsara...and the idea that even thinking about it is extremely negative

[skydog]

Ok i will admit my perspective is a little skewed because I am feeling a little hurt today.

 

But if anyone here mentions samsara we think of tulku and him going off on long tirades about it.

 

Yes it may seem very negative.

 

But is one deceiving oneself... "Oh its negative to think about samsara"

 

Because in a way life has its ups and downs and good depends on bad and vice versa..

 

I am feeling this more than normal today...

 

Is it really negative? This idea of samsara or is there some truth here.

[Birch]

It's only the flipside of nirvana, apparently. In other words it exists as both but something or other leads to its flipping.

That's as far as I've gotten with understanding these ideas. I could be wrong because I'm not a bhuddist and they have that stuff clearly explained in sutras.

 

Life most certainly has events and not all of them are good nor all bad.

Some other poster mentioned a while back that a person could test all this by being conscious of the world when feeling down and being conscious of the world when feeling up and working out what the differences were. I think there's also a danger of misattribution sometimes. That we think our impact on the world or others is more or less than it is.

 

Something I've found helpful is asking myself why I feel hurt. Not to deny I am feeling that way.

Some other poster also mentioned acknowledging children somewhere. I found that very good.

 

--- opinion alert---

[dwai]

Ok i will admit my perspective is a little skewed because I am feeling a little hurt today.

 

But if anyone here mentions samsara we think of tulku and him going off on long tirades about it.

 

Yes it may seem very negative.

 

But is one deceiving oneself... "Oh its negative to think about samsara"

 

Because in a way life has its ups and downs and good depends on bad and vice versa..

 

I am feeling this more than normal today...

 

Is it really negative? This idea of samsara or is there some truth here.

 

Samsara cannot be denied. It is our everyday reality. The key is to realize that it is ephemeral, but still existent. So, we have to keep a positive, healthy attitude towards samsara, not deny it (my humble opinion).

[Apech]

Samsara is a view of 'what really is' which is conditioned by ignorance and grasping/craving. When the energy of grasping craving is burnt out then the view is nirvana. However both are 'empty' i.e shunyata ... and seeing this is the mahayana non-duality of it all.

 

Hope that's clear as mud

Edited December 8, 2012 by Apech

[Clarity]

Ok i will admit my perspective is a little skewed because I am feeling a little hurt today.

 

But if anyone here mentions samsara we think of tulku and him going off on long tirades about it.

 

Yes it may seem very negative.

 

But is one deceiving oneself... "Oh its negative to think about samsara"

 

Because in a way life has its ups and downs and good depends on bad and vice versa..

 

I am feeling this more than normal today...

 

Is it really negative? This idea of samsara or is there some truth here.

 

When we feel hurt, very often the experience triggers our own experiences of hurting others (which weakens our energy field).

 

My take is we are here to experience Life and to resolve all of our karma while we have the chance to do so on the physical plane. There's really no need to engage in conceptual thinking, just resolve the karma or the weakness.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Observe life as though a third party, that it is not and never weas YOUR own life. but you are experiencing the role of an actor from the genuine first person perspective. "Watch" your day unfold as though a scene in a movie.

[raimonio]

many times the idea of enlightenment is used as a way to deny your feelings and thoughts

 

before enlightenment it might be a good idea to give some value to the teaching of modern psychology which state that every emotion is precious and comes bearing with a message etc

 

there is alot of guilt to be had from Buddhism for everyone who is not enlightened and this is why I chose Taoism which I find to be way more gentle

 

if you feel bad then thinking about samsara is a very natural thing IMHO and you should not blame yourself for that it simply comes with the situation

 

but it will pass just like any other problem or emotion and at the end of the day did you loose something by having the thought of samsara with the negative feeling?

 

my keyboard is broken cant have all the keys

Edited December 8, 2012 by raimonio

[C T]

 

there is alot of guilt to be had from Buddhism for everyone who is not enlightened

 

True only in Vmarco's brand of Buddhism.

 

In all other Buddhist approaches, the teachings are put in place to actually dispel self-inflicted negative patterns by giving step-by-step approaches towards the abandonment of causes which sparks reactionary emotional responses.

 

This disempowering of the causes has many benefits.

 

Gradually leads one to serene places and peaceful mindscapes.

 

Freedom from having to struggle with the good and the bad.

 

Ultimately.

[Jetsun]

Most spiritual teachings help by preventing you from creating extra added suffering by the process of resisting what happens to you, you still have to endure the basic suffering of your lot in life, the teachings just help to stop you from unnecessarily adding a whole lot more on top of it.

[deci belle]

Samsara is going along with creation. Nirvana is turning the light of creation around to follow its source. Other than that, they are one and the same. The alchemic operation of "reversal" is just this turning around.

 

Following Samsara is most definitely negative in the sense of following cycles of created energy which always end in death …how sad is that? Each cycle has a yang build-up and a yin tear-down. This is what the Yin Convergence Classic is all about. If one goes along with the waxing developments, one is then bound to the harsh killing yin energy which culminates each cycle.

 

Enlightened activity is going along with desire in the active phase of yang and withdrawing in secrecy during the yin phase.

 

One gathers the living yang energy to repletion and then seals it away in darkness (nonpsychological nondiscursive innocence) during the killing phase. When the yin cycle develops fully to the six yin lines of pure yin earth, then it is said that the restored potential is freed from the matrix. There's nothing wrong with Samsara. There is nothing else to work with. If not for the polluted, there would be no way to find the real. Complete Reality is using yin to complete yang; refining yang by yin. This is speaking of absolute and temporal in a specific usage of the terms Yin and Yang.

 

 

 

 

ed note: italicize "Yin Convergence Classic"

Edited December 9, 2012 by deci belle

[deci belle]

…spiritual teachings help by preventing you from creating extra added suffering by the process of resisting what happens to you, you still have to endure the basic suffering of your lot in life, the teachings just help to stop you from unnecessarily adding a whole lot more on top of it.

 

❤!!

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[raimonio]

True only in Vmarco's brand of Buddhism.

 

In all other Buddhist approaches, the teachings are put in place to actually dispel self-inflicted negative patterns by giving step-by-step approaches towards the abandonment of causes which sparks reactionary emotional responses.

 

This disempowering of the causes has many benefits.

 

Gradually leads one to serene places and peaceful mindscapes.

 

Freedom from having to struggle with the good and the bad.

 

Ultimately.

Yes!

 

 

 

not really if you read the Pali Canon.

 

Example

 

http://www.accesstoi...vaca/index.html

 

 

 

So far I haven't seen any examples of the Buddha saying one should feel guilty. The teachings are helpful in calming your mind down and you are taught to look at emotions such as guilt with your naked eye and see the truth yourself.

 

Yes ofcourse. Buddhism surely is not a religion or philosophy of guilt, nor does it lead to it if applied correctly. But there in lies the problem. In practice there is alot of guilt that alot of people are experiencing because they are not enlightened enough. Within their minds they are going "I have a negative feeling, it means I am not enlightened enough" and then they try to become aware of the situation which can lead to liberation of it but sometimes they fail. Sometimes the feelings are so harsh that the actual cure would be much more simple. For example if you have been within your apartment for three days and have done nothing but been on computer and your anxious, you have two options, become aware of the feeling and try to beat it like that or go outside.

 

Also if a person is having a bad feeling like if his girl friend has just left him would you go to him and say "dude, thats just an illusion, become aware of it and thats it". Life does not work like that, but still many people try to do it because they want to be good Buddhists.

 

I'm not saying Buddhism is evil, I'm just saying that the effects of the philosophy are not always good. This is not an attack on Buddhism itself.

 

Its easy to forget normal life and normal solutions when you are trying to solve everything by being an extremely advanced practitioner. It happens, just saying

 

Sinansencer was feeling bad and wondered whether it would be okay to think about samsara and if it truly is a negative thing. I wanted to help him and felt that he did not need the mandatory spiritual speech, but a more down to earth one.

 

Does Buddhism truly have a view of samsara? A negative one? Or does Buddhism state "all views are an illusion, therefor samsara as a thought or view is not negative nor positive"? Yet 99% of Buddhists view samsara as negative in their heads, why? They are not enlightened. See, the effect of Buddhism. In some cases it does make you have a view even if it does not mean to

 

Do you not agree, that while Buddhism itself is quite perfect, in some cases it can still have adverse effects before you reach enlightenment and greater wisdom? Have you never yourself experienced such? I think you might've misunderstood me, Buddhas words are golden, but it takes time to learn to truly apply them. We are all clumsy at first Admittedly the comparison between Buddhism and Taoism was uncalled for and the guilt analogy might've been poorly expressed.

Edited December 9, 2012 by raimonio

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[GrandmasterP]

Buddhism is perfectly Buddhist but it's useless at Methodism and vice versa.

Whatever gets you there is what gets you there, the path itself is not the destination.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It's to my understanding that it is only because one knows Samsara that Nirvana also exists. "Form is emptiness and emptiness is form."

 

For some more confirmation of this from the Daoist perspective, see Chapter Two of the Dao De Jing:

 

1. When everyone in the world knows the beautiful as beautiful, ugliness comes into being;

2. When everyone knows the good, then the not good comes to be.

3. The mutual production of being and nonbeing,

4. The mutual completion of difficult and easy,

5. The mutual formation of long and short,

6. The mutual filling of high and low,

7. The mutual harmony of tone and voice,

8. The mutual following of front and back—

9. These are all constants.

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them;

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent;

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;

14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them.

 

(Henricks' translation)

 

ed. note: to add lines 10 to 14

Edited December 10, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[deci belle]

 

Yow!! This is terribly erroneous, I'm afraid!! Is this really what you meant, Gerard?

 

Gerard said:

There is a short path to enlightenment but you need to live society behind and there is even a greater risk as you can really screw up yourself if you make a mistake.

 

Maybe leaving your life behind, but leaving society is screwing up. The short path is the Great Vehicle of buddhas and adepts, the middle way; Suchness: selfless adaption to conditions as they are by nondoing, i.e., seeing through phenomena without denying appearances.

 

HE said:

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them;

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent;

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;

14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them.

 

[C T]

Edited December 10, 2012 by C T

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Clarity]

Purifying the mind is what leads to liberation of karma and rebirth. This is a very slow process. Buddhists have documented the stages of progression. The main difficulty is dissolving the sanskaras (imprints in your consciousness which condition your mind). This is neither easy nor quick. Find a method that works for you and dedicate your life (and following lifetimes until you dissolve all of them) to the process. There is a short path to enlightenment but you need to live society behind and there is even a greater risk as you can really screw up yourself if you make a mistake.

 

No need to wait for them to dissolve, the weaknesses can be deleted. There was a time and place where things were slow, but not so anymore. The teaching has to be adapted to the time, the place, and the people.

 

The short path for me was to learn how to stop my mind and abandon conceptual thinking as a tool to solving life problems.

 

It doesn't have to take an entire lifetime or multiple lifetimes to stabilize and crystallize one's inner atmosphere.

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[zanshin]

PErhaps it is negative to think about nirvana, seems like a setup for disappointment. Why not accept what is? Seems like seeking nirvana and to end rebirth a huge ego trip. All my ancestors have suffered and have or will die; I'm sure I'm in no way superior to avoid this fate.

[hydrogen]

PErhaps it is negative to think about nirvana, seems like a setup for disappointment. Why not accept what is? Seems like seeking nirvana and to end rebirth a huge ego trip. All my ancestors have suffered and have or will die; I'm sure I'm in no way superior to avoid this fate.

 

I guess the intention is very important in this case. If you want to go to nirvana by yourself, you're unlikely to succeed. However if you want to bring your loved ones into nirvana as well, why not give it a try?

 

If you bring your loved one there, and they bring someone else there, one by one, eventually the most human race would be there.

 

But you have to save yourself first, if you can't save yourself, you can't save anyone else.

 

Maybe our ancestors suffered and endured so much with hope some one would find the way and lead them into nirvana. Please don't give up. Everyone has the potential.

[z00se]

One easy way i find of dealing with the ups and downs (if they aren't massive) is seperating yourself from the events. I can make myself happy easy enough and stop thinking bad thoughts that are making me feel crap. It's not the event it's self that makes you feel down, it's your constant thinking about it spiraling around and around that makes you feel crap. Just don't think about it.

 

Of course you can just watch every event as you sit 'back there' in like enlightment but that needs full lifetime disapline. Ya can't binge drink or eat like a pig and do that. Happy medium i say. You can have moments as a budda but living a budda life is difficult in society even though it SHOULD be easy.

 

Your thought leads you so think about where you want to be.