Chundi mantra

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Something interesting I've been thinking from http://archive.org/details/ShamathaRetreatWithAlanWallace2012.

 

In one of them, Alan says that during the waking state a variety of chi connected to consciousness is in the third eye; during dreams it's in the throat; and in deep sleep, or samadhi in which the coarse mind has dissolved into the alaya, it's in the heart. Also, when one breaks through to rigpa this chi merges with the indestructible drop in the heart.

 

The Zhunti mantra focuses chi at the heart, and so I've been thinking that perhaps the way it helps prajna build (as the first post suggests it does), is by directly stimulating the chi conditions related to samadhi and to breaking through the alaya to rigpa... helping speed that up.

 

And as Zhunti is called 'Mother of the Buddhas', I'm thinking that she could be taken to symbolise rigpa. The mantra itself could then be interpreted as a call for rigpa to destroy the conceptual delusion of the alaya and coarse mind.

 

I don't know much about Dzogchen, so maybe I'm misusing terms here.

[Cheshire Cat]

I have no axe to grind. Just looking for positive feedback to eventually start a serious sadhana.

If they're not present, maybe they're not even existent... what's wrong with this idea?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I have no axe to grind. Just looking for positive feedback to eventually start a serious sadhana.

If they're not present, maybe they're not even existent... what's wrong with this idea?

I doubt Zhunti exists, but the mantra still works. Just use the idea of Zhunti as an archetype of the nature of the Buddha you can become, instead of invoking a person invoke your own wisdom and compassion.

 

There's no point debating whether or not Zhunti exists... we have to assume something doesn't exist until a good reason to accept its existence comes up.

[Cheshire Cat]

I doubt Zhunti exists, but the mantra still works. Just use the idea of Zhunti as an archetype of the nature of the Buddha you can become, instead of invoking a person invoke your own wisdom and compassion.

 

 

 

I practiced with a variety of mantras from the hare Krishna to various hindu mantras, jesus prayer, etc... and, IME the Zhunti mantra doesn't hold any special phonetic value apart from the pleasant rythm and the low tones which one can use.

 

Qi effects are present with the harekrishna mantra for example, and -at the beginning- one may think that it's just that... but after a while, one feels something supernatural, things start to occur... and you really see that there's a deity behind the mantra.

With Krishna, it is easier because we have temples and initiates here in the west... but Zhunti has no temples. Nothing.

 

So, I have the impression that this mantra is empty of a divine power. Hope to be wrong, of course.

And this is the reason for which I asked here.

 

If you think that there's no Goddess Zhunti's power out there, this is a valuable feedback for me. Thank you :-)

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Try using the search bar on archive.org for 'shamatha' or 'Alan Wallace'. I can't remember exactly which recording the heart thing was in, but it's in the latter half.

 

...

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...

So far, I've had no contact from Zhunti.

 

To tell myself that she exists just because scripture refers to her and other people believe would be blind faith - intellectually lazy, superstitious, and (re: the Kalama Sutra) not the Buddhist way anyway.

 

If Zhunti exists, she won't hold a grudge against me for my doubt, and may make contact in some way when I'm ready.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Something interesting I've been thinking from http://archive.org/details/ShamathaRetreatWithAlanWallace2012.

 

In one of them, Alan says that during the waking state a variety of chi connected to consciousness is in the third eye; during dreams it's in the throat; and in deep sleep, or samadhi in which the coarse mind has dissolved into the alaya, it's in the heart. Also, when one breaks through to rigpa this chi merges with the indestructible drop in the heart.

 

The Zhunti mantra focuses chi at the heart, and so I've been thinking that perhaps the way it helps prajna build (as the first post suggests it does), is by directly stimulating the chi conditions related to samadhi and to breaking through the alaya to rigpa... helping speed that up.

 

And as Zhunti is called 'Mother of the Buddhas', I'm thinking that she could be taken to symbolise rigpa. The mantra itself could then be interpreted as a call for rigpa to destroy the conceptual delusion of the alaya and coarse mind.

 

I don't know much about Dzogchen, so maybe I'm misusing terms here.

Hi SOT,

Oh my! I think this is a new batch that I haven't listened to.. ! Thanks. I have the Spring 2012 and Fall 2012 from the SB Institute, but this appears to be a whole bunch of broadcasts that I haven't heard before..

 

Thanks!

 

That link actually doesn't have a period on the end.. This one works.

http://archive.org/details/ShamathaRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

Rainbowvein, as to which podcast has the mention about dissolving into the heart, I don't know yet..

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Oh, silly me lol.

[Simple_Jack]

Anyone posting here regularly practice the sadhana along with the mantra? Just curious.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I tried it, but I found all the detail hard to do/visualise smoothly so I thought: it's better to do recitation with some prostration and visualising a white dot at the heart chakra well, than to do a complex sadhana badly.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[Jainarayan]

I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere, as I didn't go through the entire thread:

 

Zhunti = Chundi in Buddhism = Chandi(ka)/Durga in the Devi Mahatmya in Hinduism. In the Devi Mahatmya Goddess Durga defeats the demon Mahishasura. This is her fierce form. So, the Zhunti mantra is to meditate on the fierce form of Devi. Not to say that's a bad thing, as she is the Universal or Divine Mother and protects her devotees much as a mother bear or wolf will protect her cubs and savage an aggressor, then gently and lovingly nuzzle and nurse her babies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundi_(Buddhism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandi

 

Just my .02

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jainarayan

[idiot_stimpy]

Interesting hearing the responses. If English is your first language do you recite it in English?

[Jainarayan]

I recite mantras in the language of the tradition I'm practicing. That is, Sanskrit for Hindu mantras, and some Buddhist (like the Nilakantha Dharani and Usnisa Dharani), or Tibetan, or Chinese. They don't seem to transition well to English.

[idiot_stimpy]

This one does nicely into English

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Interesting hearing the responses. If English is your first language do you recite it in English?

I use the original language.

 

I think either is fine though, so long as you have some idea of meaning (I don't think the syllables themselves have a special power) - though it seems to me that using a language you don't speak keeps you more alert; not all terms translate well; and the English can take a lot longer to recite.

 

This is for mantras in general, not just Zhunti.

[idiot_stimpy]

I take refuge in Seven Million Perfectly Enlightened Buddhas.

 

This is it.

 

Om! Cale Cule Cundi.

 

May this be true!

 

 

Here is the English translation. Much more meaningful for those who speak English as their first language.

[C T]

Here is the English translation. Much more meaningful for those who speak English as their first language.

While its good to understand the meaning of the mantras, the chant itself has the effect of invoking primordial energies hence its more efficacious to use the original sounds and tones.

 

What the mantra means (first of all) works to bring change on the surface.

 

Secondly, the invocational sounds and tonal accuracy works to rewire habitual conditionings, and also to still the mind when the mantra is dropped. This way, the mental space is made conducive to receiving the energetic implants that comes from the third benefit of chanting, which is to:

 

Cause a radical shift in habitual thoughts, feelings, speech and deeds. This works on the 'secret' level, from the inside out.

 

Henceforth, the effects cannot be fully received when mantras are chanted in English (or any other language other than the original).

[Maddie]

As a sort of reverse experiment I had been doing it regularly for a while, and then decided to focus exclusively on meditation. It's hard to articulate it, but I've noticed a difference. Probably the best way to explain it is it seems like things that had seemed relatively easy, or came easy to me became more difficult, or harder? So needless to say I just picked it up again. :-)

[themiddleway]

One of my favourite supports is Green Tara. I use it for all my big problems i.e. money and women

Edited April 9, 2014 by themiddleway

[Cheshire Cat]

Probably the best way to explain it is it seems like things that had seemed relatively easy, or came easy to me became more difficult, or harder?

 

Once you get used to walking with crutches, it seems unpleasant and difficult to move around with your own legs...

Edited April 9, 2014 by DAO rain TAO

[Yascra]

For me, the fact that could hardly hurt, it's something that shouldn't be taken for granted.

This is the main reason for which I'm in to this thread: to read of experiences with this practice.

 

But it's difficult because people are usually not aware of the most subtle transformations that happen in their spiritual practice.

 

I'd say that mantra speeds up a lot of things, though this effect might depend on your karma.

But I'd also say that it hurts, or helps accelerating things, including chances to work through bad karma. When this happens, it's not necessarily a nice experience.

At least you're done with it afterwards.

 

Btw, I do not recite it extremely often in a sense of strict recitation. The mantra just ate up most of my other mantras

[Yascra]

I doubt Zhunti exists, but the mantra still works. Just use the idea of Zhunti as an archetype of the nature of the Buddha you can become, instead of invoking a person invoke your own wisdom and compassion.

 

There's no point debating whether or not Zhunti exists... we have to assume something doesn't exist until a good reason to accept its existence comes up.

 

Actually I'm not "invoking" a "person". But I definitely have to say that I have contact to some very cool and beautiful being on the astral plane who helps greatly by working on my energy system. If you should look for him, he's looking more like an androgynous male to me

 

Oh, and usually he appears in a form with two arms. I sometimes also see him in a form with .. more .. arms, BUT that still scares me. Of course that should not inhibit anyone of regarding that mantra as some more "transcendental" thing - actually it works on MANY levels simultanously. For me it's just a strange thought that you never seem to have direct contact to or perception of that being like I do, for he's quite active in working on me, would be really hard not to notice that to some degree

 

Finally, yes, he can't hardly be "not me". But I think that should hold true for every enlightened being out there.

 

 

Best to you, and sorry for double-posting

Edited April 10, 2014 by Yascra

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Actually I'm not "invoking" a "person".

My post was a response to someone who was also sceptical about Chundi, but had been viewing the mantra only as an invocation-type thing where someone is actually asking Chundi for help, like theistic worship.

 

I was just presenting my view, not stating categorically that Chundi doesn't exist or that there aren't ways of using the mantra considering Chundi to be an actual being other than as an invocation.

 

If I end up knowing Chundi exists, I will update my understanding to something more like yours.

 

But I definitely have to say that I have contact to some very cool and beautiful being on the astral plane who helps greatly by working on my energy system. If you should look for him, he's looking more like an androgynous male to me

 

Oh, and usually he appears in a form with two arms. I sometimes also see him in a form with .. more .. arms, BUT that still scares me.

That's really interesting. Has he said anything?

 

Of course that should not inhibit anyone of regarding that mantra as some more "transcendental" thing - actually it works on MANY levels simultanously. For me it's just a strange thought that you never seem to have direct contact to or perception of that being like I do, for he's quite active in working on me, would be really hard not to notice that to some degree

How long had you been chanting for before this started happening? I've been trying to do it whenever I've not been focused on something else for about 16 months.

 

Do you tend to see similar stuff often? Maybe my 3rd eye is just too clogged right now.

 

[Yascra]

That's really interesting. Has he said anything?

I would say he rarely speaks, but he tends to smile in a very friendly way

How long had you been chanting for before this started happening? I've been trying to do it whenever I've not been focused on something else for about 16 months.

 

Do you tend to see similar stuff often? Maybe my 3rd eye is just too clogged right now.

I don't know what about my 3rd eye, but I tend to feel and see a lot of things. Though I have to say, very often I have problems to trust those perceptions of mine.

 

Well, that's the point of it. I don't count that mantra you know, and I rarely chant loudly, more silently or in my mind. But actually he appeared right when I started that practice.

I have to say that I have had quite a connection to Avalokiteshvara as well long before.

 

One day you might just open your eyes on that level and see him sitting right in front of you

Edited April 10, 2014 by Yascra

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Cool. I'll keep at it.