Chundi mantra

[taoguy]

They seem different according to what I've read from certain explanations. She's regarded as a Buddha-Mother. The terminologies in Buddhism are quite long to explain. However, yes, the terminologies for the 'feminine' principle are also reflected in Avalokitesvara's female emanation, Guanyin and other emanations like Tara. A Chan master talked about how the 'feminine' principle allowed the highlighting of "mercy" as a feminine force, whereas "compassion" was a more masculine force. There's no actual seniority between Buddhas, just a difference in their vows and hence their mind-field, for example, Amitabha Buddha compared to the Medicine Buddha, or even Samantabhadra who is considered the mind-ground of all Buddhas with the largest Buddha-field due to the expanse of his 10 Great Vows.

 

Sorry to make a tiny plug here, but I am attempting (very miserably, slowly and amateurishly) an English translation of a Chan master's explanation of the Zhunti sadhana here. I have to proclaim that I am quite ineffective, slow and sometimes even inaccurate in translation, which I repeatedly stress in the start of my posts above. The reason why I do it is also to help me to understand the lectures at the same time, both for sharing and educational purposes. Please do your own research and investigate accordingly, don't rely on my writings. Thank you.

Edited December 11, 2017 by taoguy

[Cheshire Cat]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

It's funny you say that, as I have before wondered if they were not one in the same simply interpreted by different cultures in their own way. 

 

Same sort of superstitions in my opinion.

 

[taoguy]

I just thought it would be a good alert to others to never disperse any Mudra found inside the zhunti sadhana carelessly. All of them must be scattered above the crown, if not it is considered a serious offence... (According to the article I am translating.) Also never show the mudra to other people who do not cultivate... Use a cloth to cover, or do it where no one else can see.

Edited December 12, 2017 by taoguy

[Maddie]

I reverted back to this Mantra along with some others since I'm taking a break from meditation. I had done this Mantra a lot in the past so I guess cumulatively I had a lot built up but I know I heard in the description that you reach a certain point and it gives you an auspicious dreams. I can't say I had experienced this when I did in the past but picking it up again now I had a very insightful dream last night that answered a lot of questions and I have been doing this Mantra right before I went to sleep so I thought that was pretty cool :-).

Edited January 7, 2018 by dmattwads

[taoguy]

20 hours ago, dmattwads said:

I reverted back to this Mantra along with some others since I'm taking a break from meditation. I had done this Mantra a lot in the past so I guess cumulative Lee I had a lot built up but I know I heard in the description that you reach a certain point and it gives you an auspicious dreams. I can't say I had experienced this when I did in the past but picking it up again now I had a very insightful dream last night that answered a lot of questions and I have been doing this Mantra right before I went to sleep so I thought that was pretty cool :-).

 

The master who first brought this mantra to popularity also said that it can be used before any other practice. He said that when he did zhunti mantra, he did not even need to 'contemplate on koans', the koans solved themselves (I believe he meant doing it in the Dzog-rim/Completion stage, not the Kye-rim/Generation stage though). He also said that it greatly enhances any kind of type of cultivation practice that you choose to do after it, like other mantras/dharanis, anapana, and so on.

 

[Vajra Fist]

On 1/6/2018 at 4:53 PM, dmattwads said:

I reverted back to this Mantra along with some others since I'm taking a break from meditation. I had done this Mantra a lot in the past so I guess cumulatively I had a lot built up but I know I heard in the description that you reach a certain point and it gives you an auspicious dreams. I can't say I had experienced this when I did in the past but picking it up again now I had a very insightful dream last night that answered a lot of questions and I have been doing this Mantra right before I went to sleep so I thought that was pretty cool :-).

Without wanting to pry, what was the dream?

[Maddie]

You know this might sound weird, but I can't remember most of it now, yet I feel the impact it had on me was profound. The most I still remember is this really long hallway that seemed to go on infinitely. I had the feeling that the hallway was symbolic of transition. Sorry I can't offer more. 

 

*added later- I think some of the transition is coming back to a greater interest in Mahayana again after having had a very Theravada centered point of view for the last few years. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

Ok so I wanted to give a better explanation about the dream and about what it meant to me. I remember it involved a very long hallway in a school that went on for as far as I could tell. When I woke up I told my gf about the dream and she googled a dream interpretation website and it said that the hallway tends to symbolize transition and the school the ego. This seemed to fit exactly how the dream felt. I feel like a lot of the insights I gained from the dream and other insights I feel that have been flooding me lately after restarting the Zhunti mantra are beyond words to describe but I can give some general explanation and I hope I don't loose the essence of the insights while doing so. 

 

 So like I said in my earlier post the hallway is transition and the school is the ego. I had started doing the Zhunti mantra several years ago in order to improve my karma and life in general. It was at this time that I also began to realize a lot of things about myself, and gain insight into my mind. A little while later I became acquainted on youtube and in my local area some western Theravada monks who had a very rationalist view of life and rejected anything deemed "superstitious" or "magic". This obviously included the powers of mantras. Being that they were monks and I saw them as the "experts" I gave up my mantra practice and most other practices deemed "superstitious" and took up the rationalist vipassana insight meditation approach. It didn't take long for me to notice that this practice did not make me feel very good, but I was told that was normal at the beginning and to keep at it and things would improve. The thing is, that things did not improve but this practice continued to make me feel bad. Although I can say it was effective for letting go, as a great many things were let go of, but it felt like crawling across broken glass in order to let go, effective but painful. 

 

  Needless to say after doing this a few years and never getting past the "beginners hard part" I started to grow weary of this practice. I remembered back to when my primary practice was mantra and how well it had seemed to work in spite of what the western monks claimed about it. So I began to practice mantra again initially as an experiment to see if it was indeed as helpful as I had remembered it being in the past. I had only chanted the Zhunti mantra a few times (including in my head at bedtime) before I had this dream. The transition part seemed obvious enough as I was going back to a practice that I had given up a while back, but I was also giving things that could not be rationally explained another try as well. The school/ego part made sense to me as well, as the aspect of doing it myself and not relying on a mantra or Bodhisattva appealed to my ego, and the idea of having these things help me annoyed my ego. The odd thing is, is the western monks told me that the only way to gain insight was through rational meditation methods, but since restarting mantra as my practice I have been getting insight after insight which I must admit makes my ego feel awkward lol, but I am happy it's working nevertheless.   

[Maddie]

Has anyone else noticed that doing this mantra "too much" digs up a lot of suppressed stuff and can be a bit uncomfortable? 

[Vajra Fist]

On 1/19/2018 at 1:42 PM, dmattwads said:

Has anyone else noticed that doing this mantra "too much" digs up a lot of suppressed stuff and can be a bit uncomfortable? 

 

Would you say you have recited it 200,000 times? If not it's probably a sign of purification as per the sutra (vomiting black substance). The good thing is that that discomfort you are feeling is likely to be the karmic effect of a major wrongdoing in the past. The karmic fruit manifested as minor discomfort now is undoubtedly lesser in impact than it would have been without the influence of the mantra. It may have caused you to be murdered brutally in future or else descend to the unbearable suffering of the hell realms. 

 

The sutra says: "..all his or her deadly karmic transgressions created since beginningless time shall be eliminated". 

 

And: "The individual will always be born in the human and heavenly realms and avoid encountering rebirth in the evil paths.."

 

That is a huge, huge deal. Especially when you consider accounts from Tibetan delogs who say that the vast majority of people will be reborn in the hell realms, the realm of hungry ghosts, animals or asura if the dominant state of their minds are that of anger, greed, ignorance or jealousy, respectively (i.e. most of us). 

 

Recently I've made a commitment to reciting 100,000 mani mantras. With a daily commitment of at least 1080. That's less than 100 days. If it feels good, I'll go to 600,000 or 1 million. Only after that I'll look at other mantras, perhaps Amitabha or Medicine Buddha to achieve similar levels. 

 

If I were you, record your accumulations, aim for 600,000 or even 200,000. See how you feel afterwards. Its not harmful to you, whatever discomfort you may feel. When you die that will be one thing in your life you'll never have cause for regret over.

[Maddie]

On 1/28/2018 at 0:36 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

Would you say you have recited it 200,000 times? If not it's probably a sign of purification as per the sutra (vomiting black substance). The good thing is that that discomfort you are feeling is likely to be the karmic effect of a major wrongdoing in the past. The karmic fruit manifested as minor discomfort now is undoubtedly lesser in impact than it would have been without the influence of the mantra. It may have caused you to be murdered brutally in future or else descend to the unbearable suffering of the hell realms. 

 

The sutra says: "..all his or her deadly karmic transgressions created since beginningless time shall be eliminated". 

 

And: "The individual will always be born in the human and heavenly realms and avoid encountering rebirth in the evil paths.."

 

That is a huge, huge deal. Especially when you consider accounts from Tibetan delogs who say that the vast majority of people will be reborn in the hell realms, the realm of hungry ghosts, animals or asura if the dominant state of their minds are that of anger, greed, ignorance or jealousy, respectively (i.e. most of us). 

 

Recently I've made a commitment to reciting 100,000 mani mantras. With a daily commitment of at least 1080. That's less than 100 days. If it feels good, I'll go to 600,000 or 1 million. Only after that I'll look at other mantras, perhaps Amitabha or Medicine Buddha to achieve similar levels. 

 

If I were you, record your accumulations, aim for 600,000 or even 200,000. See how you feel afterwards. Its not harmful to you, whatever discomfort you may feel. When you die that will be one thing in your life you'll never have cause for regret over.

 

I've done over 100,000 for sure, probably not 200,000 though. Interesting take on the vomiting out black substance thing though. My assumption is that the reason it gets uncomfortable is due to the working out of bad karma. 

[C T]

Quote

 

Thus, from a Buddhist point of view, our present mental, moral intellectual and temperamental differences are, for the most part, due to our own actions and tendencies, both past and present.

 

Although Buddhism attributes this variation to Karma, as being the chief cause among a variety, it does not, however, assert that everything is due to Karma. The law of Karma, important as it is, is only one of the twenty-four conditions described in Buddhist Philosophy.

 

Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:

"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

 

It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine. Being created by an Almighty God who controls our destinies and predetermines our future, or being produced by an irresistible Karma that completely determines our fate and controls our life’s course, independent of any free action on our part, is essentially the same. The only difference lies in the two words God and Karma. One could easily be substituted for the other, because the ultimate operation of both forces would be identical.

Such a fatalistic doctrine is not the Buddhist law of Karma.

 

According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.

They are:

1. Utu Niyama - physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
2. Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
3. Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
4. Dhamma Niyama - order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
5. Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.

Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Karma as such is only one of these five orders. Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver.

 

 

I think if one wants to embrace the Buddhist path seriously, it is fairly important to get a good understanding of the basic concept of karma first, and then one will be free of the thinking that somehow karma is like an iron ball and chain around our ankle. 

[megamorphg]

I've been practicing a long time the chinese transliteration per master nan's instructions and I've recently switched up to the sanskirt pronunciation.

 

Any sanskirt experts know how do you pronounce the last part?

 

Phonetically here is how i pronounce it:

 

Namo sadoh nah

samyak sam-buddha

koteenam tadyatha

ohm kalee kulee kunde soha!

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

[Mandrake]

On 03/03/2018 at 2:17 PM, megamorphg said:

I've been practicing a long time the chinese transliteration per master nan's instructions and I've recently switched up to the sanskirt pronunciation.

 

Any sanskirt experts know how do you pronounce the last part?

 

Phonetically here is how i pronounce it:

 

Namo sadoh nah

samyak sam-buddha

koteenam tadyatha

ohm kalee kulee kunde soha!

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

If you're after the sanskrit version and pronunciation it's a bit different than above. Trying to convey the pronunciation in English:

(the 'h' are aspirated)

 

Namah saptaanang

samiak sang-buddha kotinaang

tadiathaa

om chale chule chundi swaha

 

The 'ch' is the same sound as in 'ch'ange.

 

There are sanskrit pronunciation guides online, so I'd recommend going through a couple and then you shouldn't have any problems at all.

 

 

M

 

 

 

[megamorphg]

On 4/11/2018 at 12:11 AM, Mandrake said:

 

If you're after the sanskrit version and pronunciation it's a bit different than above. Trying to convey the pronunciation in English:

(the 'h' are aspirated)

 

Namah saptaanang

samiak sang-buddha kotinaang

tadiathaa

om chale chule chundi swaha

 

The 'ch' is the same sound as in 'ch'ange.

 

There are sanskrit pronunciation guides online, so I'd recommend going through a couple and then you shouldn't have any problems at all.

 

 

M

 

 

Interesting... Any particular links you can share?

I find it surprising it is "chundi"... it all feels very chinese... especially since I'm pretty sure the "chale" is referring to the popular hindu deity "kali", right? I guess the masses have been pronouncing it wrong?

Edited June 12, 2018 by megamorphg

[Mandrake]

megamorphg_

 

"Interesting... Any particular links you can share?"

I had a friend who studied Indology teach me the basics. But checking around on google, there's nowadays tons of quite good resources to get you in the right direction, for example

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkwyNqsm8CQ

 

http://learnsanskrit.org/sounds/consonants/voice

 

" especially since I'm pretty sure the "chale" is referring to the popular hindu deity "kali", right? "

 

Nope. The "cale cule cule cundi" is a play on cundi's name. Get the mantra in the IAST transliteration (which my previous response above isn't written in), check the links and other sources online, and you should be able to nail it.

 

 

M

[JustARandomPanda]

I wanted to pop in and add something to this thread.

I think I now understand a little bit why the Cundi mantra is so powerful. Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev says the yoga tradition teaches there are 16 overarching aspects of Mind. The deepest, most powerful and most subtle is the aspect right before one reaches Nirvana like a Buddha (or since he's Shaivite, Shiva).


He said when this aspect of one's mind is awakened its as if all of life and life energies within and without arranges itself according to one's wishes. He said without one's self even asking the Divine for 'this or that' [insert Desire here] - Life will seemingly simply arrange itself so it manifests. He said before you ever ask for it - it will already be so - (from this talk came my understanding: Cundi is that aspect of Awakened Mind that is the All-Wishes Fulfilled Jewel - interestingly I've heard the name Siddhartha translated into English also means "all wishes fulfilled"). Sadhguru says Everything...inner and outer begins to manifest great good fortune when this final and most subtle part of your mind is finally awake and functioning. It is this Mind - the deepest and most subtle (right before it crosses over into Shiva/Buddhahood) - that has the 32 Major marks and 80 minor ones. The level of good fortune this kind of Awakened Mind creates is astounding in its auspiciousness.


Of course this talk implies there are other methods for awakening this deepest and most auspicious aspect of Mind. It's just that the Cundi mantra targets this part of Mind directly like a guided missile. That's its goal and aim. This is why Cundi is known as the Mother of Buddhas for 7 Kotis. Beyond Cundi (in Hindu teachings at least) one finally crosses into the realm of Shiva (masculine). In Buddhism, beyond Cundi is Nirvana like the Buddha's Parinirvana.


Because of Sadhguru's talk about it I now understand why Bill Bodri (and thus Master Nan Hua-Chin since Bodri got it from Master Nan) said this one mantra is beyond comprehension in its ability to confer vast good fortune - to the point of making even really horrible karma not be nearly so bad while its working itself out as it otherwise would have been. Not to mention the vast good fortune on tap via one's fully Awakened Mind (ok, may take some folks 800,000 single-pointed repetitions to get fully Awakened Mind on tap but at least it's possible).

Edited June 27, 2018 by JustARandomPanda
clarity

[JustARandomPanda]

BTW, Because Sadhguru's talk finally made the lightbulb turn on for me about the levels of mind (and Cundi mantra) I've decided to practice it again and pair it with the Vairocana mantra that Bodri says goes very well with it.

Edited June 27, 2018 by JustARandomPanda

[megamorphg]

3 hours ago, JustARandomPanda said:

BTW, Because Sadhguru's talk finally made the lightbulb turn on for me about the levels of mind (and Cundi mantra) I've decided to practice it again and pair it with the Vairocana mantra that Bodri says goes very well with it.

Cool! I listen to a lot of Sadhguru... which talk was that?

[megamorphg]

Thanks, I have various recordings of it being pronounced that way. Here is a link to my folder, not sure if I shared it before:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AhD4wIhahXFSg7YxufxI28XtmzCVRA

 

Can you record yourself pronounce it and share?

I don't think I'm going to learn sanskirt anytime soon lol

 

Also are you sure about the last line? Is it not "ohm zhurli zhule zhunti soha"? 

[Cheshire Cat]

I believe that even if you can solve all of your life problems with a magic spell from the Middle Age, the power to do so is still in your own mind and not anywhere else. 

 

 

[megamorphg]

8 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

I believe that even if you can solve all of your life problems with a magic spell from the Middle Age, the power to do so is still in your own mind and not anywhere else. 

 

 

Yes definitely! No one can help the self-victimizing.

But there is certainly some sort of "outside" influence and help via aka nirmanakaya manifestation when uttering the specific mantra of a specific being. It might even be able to penetrate whatever wall of self-pity and evil one shrouds oneself with...

[Mandrake]

15 hours ago, megamorphg said:

Thanks, I have various recordings of it being pronounced that way. Here is a link to my folder, not sure if I shared it before:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AhD4wIhahXFSg7YxufxI28XtmzCVRA

 

Can you record yourself pronounce it and share?

I don't think I'm going to learn sanskirt anytime soon lol

 

Also are you sure about the last line? Is it not "ohm zhurli zhule zhunti soha"? 

 

Megamorphg:
No need to learn sanskrit, but nailing the pronunciation once and for all is helpful.

>Is it not "ohm zhurli zhule zhunti soha"? 

 

That is the Chinese language transliteration. Which is fine if you use that version.


M

[lifeforce]

On 27/06/2018 at 9:37 PM, JustARandomPanda said:

I wanted to pop in and add something to this thread.

I think I now understand a little bit why the Cundi mantra is so powerful. Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev says the yoga tradition teaches there are 16 overarching aspects of Mind. The deepest, most powerful and most subtle is the aspect right before one reaches Nirvana like a Buddha (or since he's Shaivite, Shiva).


He said when this aspect of one's mind is awakened its as if all of life and life energies within and without arranges itself according to one's wishes. He said without one's self even asking the Divine for 'this or that' [insert Desire here] - Life will seemingly simply arrange itself so it manifests. He said before you ever ask for it - it will already be so - (from this talk came my understanding: Cundi is that aspect of Awakened Mind that is the All-Wishes Fulfilled Jewel - interestingly I've heard the name Siddhartha translated into English also means "all wishes fulfilled"). Sadhguru says Everything...inner and outer begins to manifest great good fortune when this final and most subtle part of your mind is finally awake and functioning. It is this Mind - the deepest and most subtle (right before it crosses over into Shiva/Buddhahood) - that has the 32 Major marks and 80 minor ones. The level of good fortune this kind of Awakened Mind creates is astounding in its auspiciousness.


Of course this talk implies there are other methods for awakening this deepest and most auspicious aspect of Mind. It's just that the Cundi mantra targets this part of Mind directly like a guided missile. That's its goal and aim. This is why Cundi is known as the Mother of Buddhas for 7 Kotis. Beyond Cundi (in Hindu teachings at least) one finally crosses into the realm of Shiva (masculine). In Buddhism, beyond Cundi is Nirvana like the Buddha's Parinirvana.


Because of Sadhguru's talk about it I now understand why Bill Bodri (and thus Master Nan Hua-Chin since Bodri got it from Master Nan) said this one mantra is beyond comprehension in its ability to confer vast good fortune - to the point of making even really horrible karma not be nearly so bad while its working itself out as it otherwise would have been. Not to mention the vast good fortune on tap via one's fully Awakened Mind (ok, may take some folks 800,000 single-pointed repetitions to get fully Awakened Mind on tap but at least it's possible).

Excellent !

This correlates with the teachings of Nondual Saiva Tantra. 

Not wishing to veer off topic, I'm currently reading a book entitled "Tantra Illuminated" by Christopher Wallis. I'm about a third of the way into it and the crossover between NST and Buddhism is mentioned heavily.

[Maddie]

Has anyone else found that after doing this mantra life gets miserable for a little while?