On the Secret of the Golden Flower and on ancient Chinese philosophy

[idiot_stimpy]

Nothing, not even nothing.

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[adept]

'Gazing at the lower abdomen is external work. As for the inner work, when the mind-eye comes into being, that alone is the true elixir field'

[deci belle]

Either way, it's all the same to me, allan. It is what it is. In seeing your nature, there is no person. It is you yourself who wishes to differentiate the person from enlightening being. To me there is no longer any difference.

 

In terms of light, it is your own mind right now. How is this reversed? I say it is by not sticking to any image of person or self.

 

How does one go along? By following the same light in the ordinary course of events.

 

It is recognized in preliminary practice stages as quiet sitting, but then is applied in the course of ordinary events to see through phenomena without denying their characteristics in order to respond to people and situations without getting confused.

 

If you consider turning around the light to be energy work, I am afraid that it is not the unattributable light of nonoriginated selfless awareness.

 

Turning around the light is itself enlightening activity matching creation with potential in order to operate within created cycles of temporal energy without going along with change. Otherwise, what would be the point of turning the light around?

 

There is a reason for turning the light around— which doesn't require comparisons sticking to any image of person or self or imaginary opinions of how real people compare to other real people.

 

I don't compare myself to anyone, allan—you do. Your discriminating perceptions and all your erudition of what it means to be attached to personalities, teachings and traditions of taoism is not only useless, but it also clouds your awareness.

 

And still you have not uttered a word of this light you circulate so well. What of that, hmmmm?❤

 

 

 

 

 

ed note: "not" to "no" in first paragraph

Edited December 15, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

forget the bickering, and on to the meat of the discussion, yes?

 

Hi Practioner,

 

There does seem to be a lot of bickering... Maybe we can go back to the discussion. I am not familiar with the secret of the Golden Flower, but I would like to offer up a "signpost" for debate. Also, flowery words can be very confusing...

 

There is a point where one stops feeling all of the chakras and DTs individually and the energy feeling expands/integrates to the entire body and it feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony.

 

Thoughts? Anyone?

 

[Birch]

Has anyone on this thread checked out the blog he's talking about?

I was going to but by page two I'd kind of lost the desire. So by Deci's 'instructions' should I actually go and look at the blog? Not look at the blog? Go look at it but don't say I did? What?

[deci belle]

Hi Practioner,

 

There does seem to be a lot of bickering... Maybe we can go back to the discussion. I am not familiar with the secret of the Golden Flower, but I would like to offer up a "signpost" for debate. Also, flowery words can be very confusing...

 

There is a point where one stops feeling all of the chakras and DTs individually and the energy feeling expands/integrates to the entire body and it feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony.

 

Thoughts? Anyone?

 

 

Jeff, it's not energy work. It's not spontaneous combustion. There are no signposts. It is you own mind right now. The mind itself is it. The light of awareness is just your mind. REVERSE IT.

 

How many times have I said just this much? The flowery words are so I don't go insane saying the same thing over and over.

 

Why don't you people just look around yourselves. It doesn't matter what book you read. Dogen's Shobogenzo says as much.

[Jeff]

 

Jeff, it's not energy work. It's not spontaneous combustion. There are no signposts. It is you own mind right now. The mind itself is it. The light of awareness is just your mind. REVERSE IT.

 

How many times have I said just this much? The flowery words are so I don't go insane saying the same thing over and over.

 

Why don't you people just look around yourselves. It doesn't matter what book you read. Dogen's Shobogenzo says as much.

 

Deci,

 

Clear/quiet mind is only the beginning of the "light" being turned on. The truth is beyond mind and found through the heart.

 

I also agree that books are not that useful.

 

Since you don't feel/like energy/DT/chakra descriptions... How about this for a sign post...

 

Do you still feel/experience anger (or irritation)?

 

Enjoy the moment.

 

[thetaoiseasy]

What is this golden flower, and where do I buy it?

[deci belle]

Jeff dear, do not deny yourself anything on the face of this planet, anger included.

 

Buddhas can rant to the moon and back and throw back drinks with the pilot the whole way.

 

It is you who need to watch your p's and q's because you don't know where they come from yet.

 

I'll repeat myself for you: There are no signposts. it is not energy.

 

Your comment is off-topic as chakras have nothing to do with the Golden Flower teaching.

 

Why do ignoramuses ask for signposts on the way?

 

Because ignoramuses suggest they exist.

Posted Yesterday, 01:55 PM

rain, on 14 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

 

you will finally see for yourself what has never known creation, perpetually on the brink of action.

Nice signpost, rain!!❤

 

Unless you see your nature, yours is the teaching of a mortal, not a buddha— regardless of whether you are seeking or preaching.

[ChiDragon]

What is this golden flower, and where do I buy it?

 

 

Try the invisible China shop.......

[Jeff]

Jeff dear, do not deny yourself anything on the face of this planet, anger included.

 

Buddhas can rant to the moon and back and throw back drinks with the pilot the whole way.

 

It is you who need to watch your p's and q's because you don't know where they come from yet.

 

I'll repeat myself for you: There are no signposts. it is not energy.

 

Your comment is off-topic as chakras have nothing to do with the Golden Flower teaching.

 

Why do ignoramuses ask for signposts on the way?

 

Because ignoramuses suggest they exist.

 

Unless you see your nature, yours is the teaching of a mortal, not a buddha— regardless of whether you are seeking or preaching.

 

Dear Deci,

 

Energy is not part of the way, just a part of "existence". See thru or not, that is everyone's "choice". I will leave a few words for thought...

 

Follow the way, The quiet way to the happy country.

Seeker! Empty the boat, Lighten the load, Passion and desire and hatred.

And sail swiftly. There are five at the door To turn away,

and five more, And there are five to welcome in. And when five

have been left Stranded on the shore,

The seeker is called oghatinnoti - "He who has crossed over."

 

Dhammapada (25. The Seeker)

 

I love your beautiful flowing words, but anger is just an obstruction to the truth. Life is... What/who is there to be angry?

 

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Guest allan]

The holy sages who had written the Book of Changes and the great sages – Laozi and the Buddha – were indeed wise. They wrote or speak in metaphors about the eternal signposts of the Way so that those who practise the ancient method – the cultivation of human nature (Xing) and fate (Ming) – commonly known as neidan (inner alchemy) in the West, would be guided accordingly.

 

Those who have had practised the method down the ages and went on to become celestial immortals or buddhas also wrote their texts depicting these various signposts in metaphors in accordance with established order.

 

By doing so it prevents miscreants and the ignorant from making false claims of their attainment – of which there are many on the World Wide Web and in forums – in trying to mislead students and others.

 

These signposts are depicted in the Book of Changes, the Tao Te Ching, the Shurangama Sutra, the Secret of the Golden Flower, the Hundred Character Stele, and in the texts written by Zhong LiQuan, Zhang Boduan and by various others.

 

Only those who practise the ancient method correctly will get to know the various signposts of the Way as they progress along the path; especially after they have attained good aptitude and some spiritual clarity (Shen Ming).

 

Therefore those who know seldom speak, to accord with established order.

 

But how would I know?

[Jeff]

Does that mean you are not going to share your perspective?

 

[thelerner]

Jeff, it's not energy work. It's not spontaneous combustion. There are no signposts. It is you own mind right now. The mind itself is it. The light of awareness is just your mind. REVERSE IT.

 

How many times have I said just this much? The flowery words are so I don't go insane saying the same thing over and over.

 

Why don't you people just look around yourselves. It doesn't matter what book you read. Dogen's Shobogenzo says as much.

I'm glad you've added the words ..of awareness to follow light. It helps, but I need more..bread crumbs..

 

I'm still trying to conceptualize 'Reverse It', and I'm not forming any mental imagery. I guess I was hoping it was an energy work kind of thing, course if it was easy everyone would be there. I need more, a map, a metaphor, even a finger. <course it'd help if I read the book> wait is that admitting I'm an idiot? maybe, but Golden Flower hasn't been a particular practice of mine other then tangentially. i'm just here for the popcorn and see if i can at least grasp a frame work of the process and it's end game.

Edited December 16, 2012 by thelerner

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[adept]

This statement from the Cleary book sums up the complete practice.

Read it, ponder over it, contemplate it, over and over.

Put it into practice in everyday life.

 

'The Way is present before our eyes, yet what is before our eyes is hard to understand. People like the unusual and enjoy the new; they miss what is right in front of their eyes and do not know where the Way is. The Way is the immediate presence; if you are unaware of the immediate presence, then your mind races, your intellect runs, and you go on thinking compulsively. All this is due to shallowness of spiritual power, and shallowness of spiritual power is due to racing in the mind.'

[thelerner]

I'm glad you've added the words ..of awareness to follow light. It helps, but I need more..bread crumbs..

 

Your earlier post answers my question:

Throughout the text of the Golden Flower, it seems to be very much a meditation manual~ certainly, one is dealing with the mind itself from start to finish. Yet, it is constantly referring to inner and outer light, authenticating experiences, turning the light around in ordinary circumstances.

 

Meditation in terms of quiet sitting is just becoming familiar with the substance of mind in a controlled environment— it is not advisable to become attached to quiet sitting construing mind as separate from ordinary situations. Ordinary awareness is the light itself. Turning it around is just a matter of not using it to create illusion— this is accurate mindfulness.

 

Maintaining a subtle concentration of the shining mind throughout the day and night in ordinary affairs is not apart from quiet sitting. In the course of interacting in ordinary affairs "if you can look back again and again into the source of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any image of person or self at all, then this is 'turning the light around wherever you are.' This is the finest practice."

 

Other than that, the secret is employing objective awareness of the mind of tao, true lead, in seeing through illusory worldly situations. This is reached by not sticking to emotional consciousness of any image of person or self at all. Though you have feelings in contacting situations, still you do not act on them or allow opinions to form unawares. "Not sticking to any image of person or self" is exhaustive in its application. It is most essential to the operation of turning the light around.

 

So the book starts out as a meditation manual, then gradually introduces guidance to apply the open potential of mind in the midst of ordinary affairs.

 

 

 

"Controls the outside", refers to controlling oneself in the midst of situations, without losing oneself through following external stimulus by maintaining autonomy. "One abides in the center", refers to accurate awareness "not sticking to any image of person or self at all".

 

Turning around the light is not apart from seeing through phenomena without denying their characteristics. Not denying characteristics is seeing accurately. Seeing through phenomena is the same as "not sticking to any image of person or self at all".

[rain]

Nice signpost, rain!!❤

 

well..I recognized something which to me is vital deci belle. thank you - love

[Guest allan]

Ten years ago, an almost similar event happened in another Tao Forum, since defunct.

 

An American female member, who for years had often travelled to India to learn meditation from her gurus, had gained much popularity by regularly posting on the forum her thoughts on meditation practices found on the Web.

 

Then one day she decided to post about her inability to empty her mind during meditation. Her clique posted several ego massaging messages thereafter trying to pacify her distress in not progressing any further in her meditation practice. Since no other member had the necessary experience to tell her how to empty her mind, I stepped in to help by advising her to “focus on her breath”.

 

Her usual clique decided my offer to help constituted an affront to her meditation skills since they believed that she knew more than anyone else on the forum what with her several Indian gurus. Thereafter they ganged up on me with harangues and snide remarks while posting further ego massaging messages for her in the same or other threads.

 

Fortunately the Mod Squad there was impartial and had not stepped in. Otherwise ‘my hands and feet would be bound up’ too, like now!

 

Nowadays “Focus on your breath” seems to be cliché for the online meditation crowd. Of course that has nothing to do with me. Since Lu Dongbin had indicated it in his Secret of the Golden Flower.

 

To empty the mind is to do away with thoughts – that is only the basic step. Yet people like to play with their thoughts and called that ‘turning the light around’! No wonder the popularity of Zhuangzi, who is world famous for playing around with thoughts, for Chan Buddhism. They seemed to enjoy sitting until ‘round’.

 

Ten years older and wiser, instead of wasting my energy, I yield to the cliques and to the Mod Squad, this time around.

 

Quoting Confucius and Laozi for those in tune with the music and for those who should know better:

 

“Those who offend heaven have no one to pray to”.

 

“Heaven is impartial. It is on the side of the good.”

 

With that, I will end my last post in the thread. If I decide to end my membership too, it will serve as my last post on the forum. My purpose for joining as a member was to point out the false claims by Sean Deanty and his Italian teacher on Quanzhen teaching and its masters. Since that is water under the bridge perhaps it is time to leave altogether.

 

Regards,

 

allan

[adept]

Hi Allan.

No one has asked you to leave.

I have felt like this many times before.

Then I realized that there's a lot of good here. You have a lot to offer to the forums.

I merely pointed out that your way isn't the only way and there are other perspectives.

[Taomeow]

 

Fortunately the Mod Squad there was impartial and had not stepped in. Otherwise ‘my hands and feet would be bound up’ too, like now!

You mean the rule of this forum of "no personal insults" leaves you incapacitated in a discussion?.. I'm sorry to hear that. Most people find quite a few other ways to express themselves (they must be the "clique" you are talking about) -- but if this takes away the one and only efficient means of self-expression available to you, that's very unfortunate.

[thelerner]

“Those who offend heaven have no one to pray to”.

 

“Heaven is impartial. It is on the side of the good.”

 

With that, I will end my last post in the thread. If I decide to end my membership too, it will serve as my last post on the forum.

I don't get the last line. It seems contradictory, if heaven is impartial then its not on one side or the other; its impartial. <treating us all like strawdogs>

 

This is a bit negative but looking back I don't see Allan added anything substantial to the two Golden Flower threads. Other then repeatedly saying others know nothing and he does, he shared nothing of theory or substance. And that's a pity because obviously he knows a lot.

Edited December 27, 2012 by thelerner

[hydrogen]

 

Written over a spate of seven years, the blog contains almost six hundred articles on these various subjects of interests where I share some of my knowledge and experiences with readers.

 

 

Allan, could you give us a direct description of your practice, which singpost have you reached and your opinon of TSoGF?

 

Do you really expect anyone spending hours to dig through your six hundred articles without knowing anything about you? I know I'd rather read the original one more time If I have more time.

 

Are you here to teach us or share your knowledge?