Spiritual Lineage Explained

[GrandmasterP]

Behold the sacred horse stance.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I don't think they aren't willing to admit the mummies or we wouldn't know about them. Whether they were Aryans is debatable because Aryans themselves are such an elusive entity.

 

As for where the Chinese learned what they knew, this gets very interesting indeed. Taoist legend has it that it was passed down from a legendary culture, known as the "Sons of Reflected Light," some 14,000 years ago. It taught scholarship, meditation and alchemy. Interestingly enough, this is the date (14,000 years ago) cross-referencing with a seemingly unrelated science, genetics. It was exactly at this time that the genes for blondness suddenly sharply spiked in all human populations studied to date. These genes were present in the human genetic pool long before that time, according to modern view due to cross-breeding of homo sapiens with neanderthals, who (unlike the ugly pictures of what they purportedly looked like we were all shown in elementary school, which still persist into many obsolete unscientific curricula of anthropology not up to speed with either archeology or genetics, and into mass media sources of course) were very tall and blond and very good-looking. (I've seen an opinion of a geneticist that neanderthals engaged in occasional cross-breeding with our kind as a form of pity sex.) But these genes were never widely represented and in fact were on the way out, being recessive. Then 14,000 years ago it suddenly changed, they became ubiquitous. Why?.. Of course the official explanation holds no water (it's along the lines of, Hollywood beauty standards prevailed and all over the planet blondes started procreating preferentially, or something equally idiotic.) (Emphasis mine ZYD)

 

And the point which you wish to make here is what exactly? I'm afraid that as it stands it leaves one hanging with a lot of potential implications and I want to know what you personally make of this. Why you consider this worth mentioning.

 

The "a seemingly unrelated science, genetics", certainly "seems" to imply that there is some connection between this "Taoist Legend" and genetics. Do you maintain that there is some significant correlation between these two and if so what exactly?

[GrandmasterP]

This thread could be as well called

Spiritual Lineage NOT Explained

[Taomeow]

Hey TaoMeow

 

Fascinating stuff. Have you any references or leads to learn more about this?

 

Thanks

 

a

 

Hi .al.,

 

yup, it is fascinating. I can refer you to my starting point (I did quite a bit of research since, but as Apech rightfully notes, one can only scratch the surface with these things in one lifetime):

Lost Discoveries: The Ancient Roots of Modern Science--From the Babylonians to the Maya,

by Dick Teresi

[Taomeow]

And the point which you wish to make here is what exactly? I'm afraid that as it stands it leaves one hanging with a lot of potential implications and I want to know what you personally make of this. Why you consider this worth mentioning.

 

The "a seemingly unrelated science, genetics", certainly "seems" to imply that there is some connection between this "Taoist Legend" and genetics. Do you maintain that there is some significant correlation between these two and if so what exactly?

 

All right, I'll try.

 

1. I didn't bring it up, I was responding to Jetsun who asked about the origin of Chinese knowledge and brought up blond mummies in China. The Sons of Reflected Light is what taoists (the source of Chinese sciences) refer to when asked about the origin of their knowledge. No one knows if it has anything whatsoever to do with any blond anybody, but I thought it worth mentioning that there's a chronological coincidence. What to make of it, I don't know, nobody does, but I'm in the habit of integrating whatever information comes my way toward a possible future crystallization. Sometimes it happens -- one more bit of evidence not really intended to prove or disprove a theory falls into a hypersaturated solution of information and contemplation and suddenly the connections are formed ziran, by themselves, the whole thing crystallizes -- and you understand... This is my favorite cognitive method. It is nonlinear. There's better ones I'm sure, but that's how my mind works.

 

2. While we are on the subject, let me mention what I see as relevant to the discussion of my own convictions:

 

a] I believe in the fundamental scientific superiority of the ancient taoist methods to do science. Whether they developed these organically or got a transmission from a (possibly) off-planet, not-of-this-world, or nonhuman culture as all ancient sources (not just the ones that depict Nuwa and Fuxi as snake-like beings from a UFO-like device) seem to assert, I don't know, but the more I learn, the less likely a human history that does not include a nonhuman intervention somewhere up the line seems to be. Conclusions are not available at this stage. I don't know if they ever will be drawn -- by me or anyone else -- based on any conclusive evidence. All evidence I have is circumstantial. But it seems like a worthwhile pragmatic pursuit to me at this point. Why pragmatic? Because it spares one a lot of dead-end trips to second-hand sources. If you're trying to go for the source of knowledge, you don't go to peer reviews, you go to the lab, physical or otherwise, where the discovery or the transmission actually took place... and if you try to replicate it, you ask the guy/gal who did it first, not the one who had an "opinion" "about it" later.

 

b] Race, biologically speaking, is an extremely superficial phenomenon. One inherits the color of the skin and hair as part of a cluster of traits (the term is linkage) that is pretty small. One inherits other, less visible traits in much more strongly linked clusters, but these are not visible to the naked eye. E.g., one's blood type is linked to hundreds of other genetic traits one inherits along with it, but skin and hair color are not part of this linkage. So if my blood type is different from that of my own children (which it is), but the same with some random African American in the street, genetically I may be closer to this random guy than to my own children, amazingly enough. So all those ideas about "superior races" are, for starters, rooted in glaring biological ignorance. This also goes for all ethnic and national affiliations -- these are superficial, and not worth the hairs split over them in the least, though we've been splitting them through millennia.

 

c] Ideological affiliation, a matter of free choice, is not as superficial. I believe one has to take the ultimate responsibility that comes with the territory of free will (something even gods don't mess with) very much to heart when choosing an ideology, a cognitive paradigm, a set of beliefs or disbeliefs, etc.. I feel that, unlike race, ethnicity, or the chance of birth into a particular culture, this is a true human definer, a true game-changer. Upon exposure to assorted systems of approaching reality, one must find the melody of one's true soul, true being, that resonates with a particular one, and investigate it as thoroughly as possible. If it proves to be one's soul's song indeed, one would do well learning it well, learning not to sing it too off key at least... This may seem vague, but it is vague by design, this is the quest we're on -- the quest for the true source, true being, reality, whatever one may call it it -- and a quest is not, usually, plumb straight and perfectly delineated, it is not a schedule, not a curriculum, it's a process of co-creation between you and reality... So, because taoism is what resonates, I undertake explorations. What I uproot sometimes answers my earliest questions -- why this, why that, why I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, etc.. And sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it just foreshadows... leaving me with an inner source of thrill, an anticipation of "things to come" -- which of course might only come if I pursue them going in the right direction. That kind of a deal.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hi .al.,

 

yup, it is fascinating. I can refer you to my starting point (I did quite a bit of research since, but as Apech rightfully notes, one can only scratch the surface with these things in one lifetime):

Lost Discoveries: The Ancient Roots of Modern Science--From the Babylonians to the Maya,

by Dick Teresi

 

Haven't read it, but it doesn't quite fit that a culture from 5000 BC, who travelled for trade to the far East, and who had these maths and sciences already well developed maybe 3000 years before any irrefutably dated history can be ascribed to Chinese civilization, would have learned these things from China first who's irrefutable history gets foggy by about 1000 BC.

 

Some of the earliest temples were built using the Fibonacci formula too. Doesn't quite make sense that they learned it from the Chinese by that time.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[GrandmasterP]

The layout wasn't Fibonacci as such as Fibonacci was yet to come but the point is valid albeit non mystical.

Consider the Platonic forms, you can take that two ways, metaphysically to accept an ur form or order 'extant somewhere' against which all temporal forms may be judged.

Something along the lines of.... 'The perfect religion against which all others are judged' or 'divine grace, or as plato might have said 'agape'.

Or, and this is the more likely pragmatic genesis of Platonism

The best solution to any problem is the one that solves the problem best and quickest, along the lines of pyramids being the only shape for really tall massive structures if you don't have girders .

Sunflower seeds and some snail shells grow in Fibonacci sequence without them ever having studied math, it's just the most efficient way for them to grow, so that's what they do.

A lot of hermeticism and mysticism has been reverse engineered into systems that were basically pragmatic.

All well and good to believe in spacemen intervening in history bringing new knowledge but most likely what really happened is that some guy on the job came up with the best way to get he job done using the materials available. Brilliant ideas do seem like miracles sometimes. Teflon for example, wonderful stuff but it took someone at my old uni quite a while to figure out how to get it to actually stick to pans. Once that was sorted the money just flowed in.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

Lineage for example.

Teacher A needs to keep his students cos their fees pay his rent.

Teacher A comes up with a Graded hierarchy, the closer you are to the top the more knowledge you get and one day you will maybe inherit the business.

Down the line the lower orders are kept on their toes by loyalty oaths and mini rituals plus the occasional pat on the head.

Now all that works well as long as what is being taught is good, effective and beats any challengers.

Soon as something better comes along many students will maybe decamp to the new best thing and Teacher As rent goes unpaid.

Or he moves to the west and sets up his shingle.

Job done and a nice living for Teacher A from daft westerners buying into the lineage schtick.

[Apech]

The layout wasn't Fibonacci as such as Fibonacci was yet to come but the point is valid albeit non mystical.

Consider the Platonic forms, you can take that two ways, metaphysically to accept an ur form or order 'extant somewhere' against which all temporal forms may be judged.

Something along the lines of.... 'The perfect religion against which all others are judged' or 'divine grace, or as plato might have said 'agape'.

Or, and this is the more likely pragmatic genesis of Platonism

The best solution to any problem is the one that solves the problem best and quickest, along the lines of pyramids being the only shape for really tall massive structures if you don't have girders .

Sunflower seeds and some snail shells grow in Fibonacci sequence without them ever having studied math, it's just the most efficient way for them to grow, so that's what they do.

A lot of hermeticism and mysticism has been reverse engineered into systems that were basically pragmatic.

 

Groan.

 

A pyramid shape is both the most practical way to build a stable tall building and the perfect symbolic shape to reflect the benben stone or first mound.

 

The whole point of celestial geometry is that it reflects and is reflected in nature. Its not reveres engineering as you put it but reflexivity.

[Apech]

Lineage for example.

Teacher A needs to keep his students cos their fees pay his rent.

Teacher A comes up with a Graded hierarchy, the closer you are to the top the more knowledge you get and one day you will maybe inherit the business.

Down the line the lower orders are kept on their toes by loyalty oaths and mini rituals plus the occasional pat on the head.

Now all that works well as long as what is being taught is good, effective and beats any challengers.

Soon as something better comes along many students will maybe decamp to the new best thing and Teacher As rent goes unpaid.

Or he moves to the west and sets up his shingle.

Job done and a nice living for Teacher A from daft westerners buying into the lineage schtick.

 

How about ... to learn the really interesting stuff you need a grounding in basics which takes time. To test that people are making progress through basics you introduce a grading system so that you can judge progress and to let people know they are getting somewhere ... once you get to a certain level you forget about the grading.

 

How about ... people like to teach what they know and like to teach people because it benefits them ... that's a reasonable motivation isn't it?

[GrandmasterP]

Pyramid Building Solutions Inc (The olde firm, no job too big) came first, mysticism was bolted on afterwards, and not by the guys with measuring rods, they were off on the next job laying a patio for the Pharaoh's cousin.

It was the merchandise sellers wearing silly hats and calling themselves priests as done it.

Tombs often become pilgrimage sites, cults only develop once the merchandise stalls have been set up.

Nothing to buy = No cult.

Twas ever thus.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

Pyramid Building Solutions Inc (The olde firm, no job too big) came first, mysticism was bolted on afterwards, and not by the guys with measuring rods, they were off on the next job laying a patio for the Pharaoh's cousin.

It was the merchandise sellers wearing silly hats and calling themselves priests as done it.

Tombs often become pilgrimage sites, cults only develop once the merchandise stalls have been set up.

Nothing to buy = No cult.

Twas ever thus.

 

Imhotep was a priest and vizier ... and designed the whole Step Pyramid complex as well as the pyramid itself.

It is you sir who is wearing the silly hat ... a pointy one I think.

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

How about ... to learn the really interesting stuff you need a grounding in basics which takes time. To test that people are making progress through basics you introduce a grading system so that you can judge progress and to let people know they are getting somewhere ... once you get to a certain level you forget about the grading.

 

How about ... people like to teach what they know and like to teach people because it benefits them ... that's a reasonable motivation isn't it?

......

Absolutely, academic grades go up to Level 8 and no further, after that it's just a job description and/or tenure.

Same with gradings or belts in the MA.

Nothing at all mystical about that you do the work and climb the ladder or do some of the work and remain on a particular rung.

My issue such as it is concerns the mystifiers of lineage who seem to claim that the act and fact of being initiated into a lineage somehow confers arcane knowledge or power or both almost by osmosis, along the lines of apostolic succession. Now that's nonsense as the only route to knowledge and/or skill involves both sweat and time applied in almost equal measures.

[Apech]

......

Absolutely, academic grades go up to Level 8 and no further, after that it's just a job description and/or tenure.

Same with gradings or belts in the MA.

Nothing at all mystical about that you do the work and climb the ladder or do some of the work and remain on a particular rung.

My issue such as it is concerns the mystifiers of lineage who seem to claim that the act and fact of being initiated into a lineage somehow confers arcane knowledge or power or both almost by osmosis, along the lines of apostolic succession. Now that's nonsense as the only route to knowledge and/or skill involves both sweat and time applied in almost equal measures.

 

Buckets of sweat mate ... buckets of it.

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

Imhotep was a priest and vizier ... and designed the whole Step Pyramid complex as well as the pyramid itself.

It is you sir who is wearing the silly hat ... a pointy one I think.

....

That's be 'engineer' Imhotep buddy. In Koine Greek they called him a Geometroi.

Pythagorus whose dad the bronze smith kicked him off Samos for wooly dreaming fetched up in Egypt and secured work as a chain lad working for Geometroi. He walked out with the knotted rope and sticks at the Geometroi's command.

The Geometroi had a sweet business it was handed down from father to son and through a craft guild structure, the big secret (how to do the job) was closely guarded.

Each year the Nile flooded and mud covered the fields so the Geometroi resurveyed and replaced boundary markers.

Dressed it all up in ritual with oaths threats , golf days and ladies auxiliary fund raisers in order to keep the job in house amongst their own and frighten off the plebs. (Freemasons anyone?).

Pythagorus works out the trick ( equidistant knots at 3,4,5 spacing along a rope plus two sharp sticks = a perfect right angled triangle every time) and tries to set up a rival surveying firm. The Geometroi put a contract out on him, Pythagorus legs it and sets up elsewhere. The rest is history, mystery and ritual. At root it's just estate agents, construction engineers and surveyors protecting their lucrative turf.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

 

So you believe that a teacher can do nothing energetically to advance the student more quickly? All they can do is provide instruction so that the student's hard work is constantly guided in the right direction?

 

I am not discounting the importance of hard work, but the idea you appear to be presenting seems to go against the experiences of many on this board and the fundamental principles of several systems I have seen discussed here. If I am interpreting what you are saying correctly, for what reason do you think that transmissions are not legitimate?

........

Because knowledge or skills cannot be instantaneously transmitted either by osmosis or magic.

That'd be something along the lines of the Xtian idea of 'salvation' and it's quite a new concept bolted into eastern 'lineage' discourses and that only since those began to be sold here in the west.

 

[Apech]

....

That's be 'engineer' Imhotep buddy. In Koine Greek they called him a Geometroi.

Pythagorus whose dad the bronze smith kicked him off Samos for wooly dreaming fetched up in Egypt and secured work as a chain lad working for Geometroi. He walked out with the knotted rope and sticks at the Geometroi's command.

The Geometroi had a sweet business it was handed down from father to won and the big secret was closely guarded.

Each year the Nile flooded and mud covered the fields so the Geometroi resurveyed and replaced boundary markers.

Dressed it all up in ritual with oaths threats , golf days and ladies auxiliary fund raisers in order to keep the job in house amongst their own and frighten off the plebs. (Freemasons anyone?).

Pythagorus works out the trick ( equidistant knots at 3,4,5 spacing along a rope plus two sharp sticks = a perfect right angled triangle every time) and tries to set up a rival surveying firm. The Geometroi put a contract out on him, Pythagoeus legs it and sets up elsewhere. The rest is history, mystery and ritual. At root it's just estate agents, construction engineers and surveyors protecting their lucrative turf.

 

Ok if you want to call him an engineer, that's ok with me ... but his design was based on their religious beliefs.

 

The stretching the cord and measuring the fields after inundation goes back to pre-dynastic times ... the Greeks were late comers ... the Egyptians did not abstract like the Greeks it was both/and practical and religious in their eyes ... no difference ... your view is the product of 2000 years of fucked up thinking .. that's all.

[三江源]

....both/and practical and religious in their eyes ... no difference ... your view is the product of 2000 years of fucked up thinking .. that's all.

 

Saddening truth about the huge long swathe of fucked upness.. dont really feel like saying 'fuck it' in any good way , about this split that forced apart what should never be wrenched asunder.

[Apech]

........

Because knowledge or skills cannot be instantaneously transmitted either by osmosis or magic.

That'd be something along the lines of the Xtian idea of 'salvation' and it's quite a new concept bolted into eastern 'lineage' discourses and that only since those began to be sold here in the west.

 

I think your understanding is a bit limited and you are confused by these references to Xtianity ... those Xtians are even more confused than you. But each to his own.

 

Its your round anyway ... I'll have a Barley Wine if that's ok with you.

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

Ok if you want to call him an engineer, that's ok with me ... but his design was based on their religious beliefs.

 

The stretching the cord and measuring the fields after inundation goes back to pre-dynastic times ... the Greeks were late comers ... the Egyptians did not abstract like the Greeks it was both/and practical and religious in their eyes ... no difference ... your view is the product of 2000 years of fucked up thinking .. that's all.

......

No it isn't. The pyramids are still there , the engineering was that good.

It's not magic stops em falling down it's how they were built in the first place.

The magic was and is just window dressing to keep insiders in and outsiders out.

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

I think your understanding is a bit limited and you are confused by these references to Xtianity ... those Xtians are even more confused than you. But each to his own.

 

Its your round anyway ... I'll have a Barley Wine if that's ok with you.

........

Green Tea for me.

Have a biccy.

:-)

[GrandmasterP]

Ah, tea and biccies.

Magic.

[Apech]

......

No it isn't. The pyramids are still there , the engineering was that good.

It's not magic stops em falling down it's how they were built in the first place.

The magic was and is just window dressing to keep insiders in and outsiders out.

 

Why do you think that's a contradiction? Good engineering and religion (for want of a better word).

 

Do you think they built Stonehenge for a laugh ... just chuck a few stones in a field for the tourists?? No it meant something ... and it still does to a lot of people cos its in our psyche (or however you like to put it).

 

They built it well because it meant something ... get it?

[Apech]

Ah, tea and biccies.

Magic.

 

What kind of pub is this?

[三江源]

What kind of pub is this?

 

Its not a real pub. It has the lineage of Cozy Nook Tea Shoppe rendering it overly domestic and all reassuring like.