Is Jesus it that cannot be named in Tao?

[hydrogen]

Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said to him, "You are the Ruler of Israel." Matthew said, "You are the Greatest of Prophets." John said, "You are that which cannot be named." Jesus said to John, "I tell you the truth when I say that no mortal has taught you this, but you have been instructed through the Light." Then Jesus took him apart and showed him the mysteries of Life, the power of unity through which mortals join the Eloheim.

 

I was floored when I read this line "You are that which cannot be named."

 

If that were true, then Jesus had have come from outside of this universe/system. He'd been really different from everyone else on earth.

 

According to Tao De Jing, Heaven and earth originated from that which cannot be named. What does it mean?

 

My understanding is that anything which has a name is pre-existed, has been manifestated, and is subject to the laws/rules of this universe. That which cannot be named could become anyting and doesn't follow the laws of this universe/system.

 

Is Jesus unique? Do we all have that which cannot be named from which we can created a brand new world?

 

I don't suppose I can find the answer soon.

[Fū Yue]

Can your own ordinary mind really be defined, named or grasped at in any way, shape or form?

[hydrogen]

Can your own ordinary mind really be defined, named or grasped at in any way, shape or form?

 

"mind" is its name.

 

Did I missunderstand your question.

[Fū Yue]

"mind" is its name.

 

Did I missunderstand your question.

 

Yes. Let me rephrase it for you;

 

Can the unspeakable, indestructible mystery moving your lips, hands, feet and arms right now, which we, for loss of any sort of description for that thus-come moment which we are all participating in, call 'mind'. be defined, named or grasped in any way shape or form? What makes you think that this very 'Thus'-ness is not you? Beyond the name 'mind', what is there?

[Cheshire Cat]

I don't know what kind of translation it is.

The original latin texts say:

 

13 Venit autem Iesus in partes Caesareae Philippi et interrogabat discipulos suos dicens: “ Quem dicunt homines esse Filium hominis?”.

14 At illi dixerunt: “ Alii Ioannem Baptistam, alii autem Eliam, alii vero Ieremiam, aut unum ex prophetis ”.

15 Dicit illis: “ Vos autem quem me esse dicitis? ”.

16 Respondens Simon Petrus dixit: “ Tu es Christus, Filius Dei vivi ”.

17 Respondens autem Iesus dixit ei: “ Beatus es, Simon Bariona, quia caro et sanguis non revelavit tibi sed Pater meus, qui in caelis est.

 

 

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

 

Tu es Christus, Filius Dei vivi means You are the Christ (holy person), the son of the living God

 

Directly from the vatican website

Edited December 12, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[ChiDragon]

According to Tao De Jing, Heaven and earth originated from that which cannot be named. What does it mean?

 

My understanding is that anything which has a name is pre-existed, has been manifestated, and is subject to the laws/rules of this universe. That which cannot be named could become anyting and doesn't follow the laws of this universe/system.

 

Is Jesus unique? Do we all have that which cannot be named from which we can created a brand new world?

 

I don't suppose I can find the answer soon.

 

I don't know what kind of translation it is.

The original classic Chinese texts say:

 

3. 無，名天地之始。

4. 有，名萬物之母。

 

3. "Invisible" was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. "Visible" was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

[GrandmasterP]

Context...

Peter is saying to Mr Jesus....

"You da King man!"

Sod the Latin the Koine Greek is quite clear Peter is acknowledging Mr Jesus as a temporal wannabe king in the same way and linguistic context that he and his fellow revolutionaries looked back on King David as the mythical bees knees.

Life of Brian's got it about right, most of Mr Jesus followers had him for a king in waiting in the simple sense of their King who would kick the Romans erses out and lead them on to a brave new dawn with presents for everybody.

[hydrogen]

I don't know what kind of translation it is.

The original classic Chinese texts say:

 

3. 無，名天地之始。

4. 有，名萬物之母。

 

3. "Invisible" was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. "Visible" was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

無名,天地之始。

 

That's what most people would read.

 

I'm not expert in Dao De Jing, but I haven't seen any interpretation of "invisible" in either Chinese or English.

[hydrogen]

Yes. Let me rephrase it for you;

 

Can the unspeakable, indestructible mystery moving your lips, hands, feet and arms right now, which we, for loss of any sort of description for that thus-come moment which we are all participating in, call 'mind'. be defined, named or grasped in any way shape or form? What makes you think that this very 'Thus'-ness is not you? Beyond the name 'mind', what is there?

 

So long it has a name, it's not "THE TAO".

 

It doesn't really matter if anybody can understand it or not, it's got a name. Then it belongs to this world. It ceases to be "TAO".

[hydrogen]

 

Tu es Christus, Filius Dei vivi means You are the Christ (holy person), the son of the living God

 

Directly from the vatican website

 

I don't suppose Jesus didn't speak Latin either.

 

And why did vatican become the authority on bible?

[GrandmasterP]

Isn't Tao called 'Tao' ?

Can be named , can't be described.

Sorry if that sounds pedantic.

[ChiDragon]

無名,天地之始。

 

That's what most people would read.

 

I'm not expert in Dao De Jing, but I haven't seen any interpretation of "invisible" in either Chinese or English.

 

There are many ways to place the punctuations. The meaning will change in context. However, the character "有" is very difficult to translate in English. In order to get to its real meaning, one can only use words to imply what it means. "有" means "to have". In the Chinese language, if something that exists, it must be a visible and tangible thing to have it in your hand. In the same token, the character "無" means "none". Both characters were used here as a NOUN to reveal the existing(visible) and non-existing(invisible) to describe "Tao" in its preexisting and the post-existing states.

 

By the way, my translation was from the interpret by the most knowledgeable native scholar. With the phrase as shown, the logic flows within context from line to line in Chapter One of the Tao Te Ching.

Edited December 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Seems there are multiple versions of this tale. When quoting a specific version, could you guys cite the book, verse, and translation? Makes it easier to look up other translations of that verse and compare...and also to compare it to other books.

[thetaoiseasy]

Semantics. Jesus can be named. And of course Tao can be named. I just used both of the names in the past two sentences. The point here is, the truth that Tao and Jesus represent are too profound to be limited by words or definitions. Thus any description you use for these entities--son of God, the subtle origin, nothing, something, Jesus, Tao-- they are only partial descriptions of the truth, not the whole truth. Taking a shit is Tao. Praying to God is Tao. Mowing the Lawn can be Tao. Yet is Tao limited to these activities? Nope. They are certainly Tao, though.

[GrandmasterP]

Yep, I agree.

The minute we begin to try and explain or describe these things we're wrong by definition.

[konchog uma]

Isn't Tao called 'Tao' ?

Can be named , can't be described.

Sorry if that sounds pedantic.

 

sure its just not the true dao

[ChiDragon]

Seems there are multiple versions of this tale. When quoting a specific version, could you guys cite the book, verse, and translation? Makes it easier to look up other translations of that verse and compare...and also to compare it to other books.

 

It would be a very difficult task. Needless to explain why so. It just cant be done....

Edited December 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

Agreed, but as our chum says above it's a convenient label .

For example, forum would be called Not the Tao Bums, and that might be confusing.

[Aetherous]

It would be a very difficult task. Needless to explain why so. It just cant be done....

 

It's very easy to cite the source...

[Birch]

That video posted by Serene Blue does a nice job of it:-)

The one with the ex-physicist talking about the absurd conceptual indulgences scientists go into. But it's not just scientists.

[GrandmasterP]

Thing is, and I'm no expert; whichever 'translation' used ; being from Chinese characters, it's far more an interpretation than a translation from one textual language into another such as Greek into Latin for example.

Sinologists are notoriously argumentative,

Edited December 12, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

I don't suppose Jesus didn't speak Latin either.

 

And why did vatican become the authority on bible?

Koine Greek's the closest to the local Aramaic insofar as it was the lingua franca 'market' language in that neck of the Roman Empire back in the day. Saul/Paul would have used it for sure.

[Stosh]

Among preliterate peoples, the act of naming is a bestowal of a soul on the one who receives the name (Charles). In either case, though, the effect is the same: the person who receives a name thereby receives an identity and a place within the society.

This bestowal of name and identity is a kind of symbolic contract between the society and the individual. Seen from one side of the contract, by giving a name the society confirms the individual's existence and acknowledges its responsibilities toward that person. The name differentiates the child from others; thus, the society will be able to treat and deal with the child as someone with needs and feelings different from those of other people. Through the name, the individual becomes part of the history of the society, and, because of the name, his or her deeds will exist separate from the deeds of others.

 

Perhaps Jesus was being considered outside of the normal societal paradigm or was already in possession of a 'soul'

?

[GrandmasterP]

Well he'd have been Yeshua bar Joseph and Joseph would have been Abu Yeshua locally in much the same way that even today's Palestinian dads after the birth of their first son become abu.

So my buddy Faris's dad who was Mohammed has been called Abu Faris ever since Faris was born.

Names for people tend to identify who or what either they or their parents belong to and/or identify with.

I was born in England but it is immediately obvious from my surname that my heritage is Irish.

A Chinese cultivator with Chen as part of their name will likely do Taiji in a particular style.

Edited December 12, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Jews have historically used Hebrew patronymic names. In the Jewish patronymic system the first name is followed by either ben- or bat- ("son of" and "daughter of", respectively), and then the father's name. (bar-, "son of" in Aramaic, is also seen).

 

If Joseph wasnt being considered the actual father of Yeshua ben Yehosef , essentially that Mary had a virgin birth event

the naming might be difficult ,, (but I have no idea whether his contemporaries shared that opinion regarding him.)