Looks like Obomber is going to use today's shooting to create a constitutional crisis

[joeblast]

Firstly, prayers for the deceased. /\

 

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-police-responding-to-incident-in-newtown-20121214,0,7266220,full.story

 

 

This came right on the heels of "new security measures" implemented throughout the district to prevent this very thing from happening. Obviously, such measures are not very effective in and of themselves.

 

I believe that "gun-free" zones are pretty misguided, in that if a deranged lunatic wants to shoot a bunch of people up, his best chance for high numbers is *exactly* in a "gun free" zone, because there is simply little opportunity to mount any sort of defense when you are explicitly prohibited from protecting yourself. The statistics clearly show that when a situation like this arises, the only thing that stops the massacre from happening is the arrival of a gun in the good side's hands to equalize the battle. This is the difference between one or two dead, and twenty seven.

 

But, then I see this in the comments in one of the links:

 

CBS news Update at 1325 hrs:

"Carney (white house spokesman) stated that The president may be making some hard decisions in the coming days about our 2nd Amendment right, and that some Americans may not support his decision."

 

and I'm like, are you seriously freakin kidding me? Obama has shat on the constitution enough as it is, and now he's going to put a constitutional crisis up front and center - and away from the thousands of mathematical errors they continually make! The sonofabitch is not a dictator, and as much cause for impeachment as he's already given us (expand your reading sources if you find that hard to believe) - this is really a ballsy, unprecedented, and illegal, unconstitutional maneuver.

 

Discuss.

[thelerner]

Are we supposed to take you seriously when you open up conversations with Obomber?? If I did I'd flip on Limbaugh.

 

Frankly, you may be right, but I'm not bothering to read your post because when conversation starts in the gutter, with 2nd grade name calling tac tics, its not worth it. I can find thoughtful serious commentary elsewhere.

[joeblast]

Sorry, couldnt help myself, he's been one catastrophe after another, if you cant get past that or dont care about the laws of the country, you dont have to participate

 

If a mod feels we'd have "better discussion" were that little typo corrected, feel free to do so.

Edited December 14, 2012 by joeblast

[Aetherous]

What drives a person to be able to kill children? Really.

 

Where was our spiritual power this morning? In my view, this happened on my watch, in my country. I know that sounds weird...

 

...

 

About the politics...I hope they don't take away anyone's right to defend themselves. Sucks that the whole argument always pops up when this kind of thing occurs. I guess people are looking for any possible way to feel like they have control over an uncontrollable situation.

Edited December 14, 2012 by turtle shell

[joeblast]

Looks like this kid was pissed at mommy & daddy, killed pops, then went to the school and killed mom &....well, they're still basically saying "unaccounted for" with regard to the children. And it also appears that the kid's younger brother knew about it too, he was the one they pulled from the woods.

 

I havent found much else on the Obama comment, I hope it was a hoax, because it is a lot more trouble than it is worth - despite just about every single comment on huffpo calling for guns to be eliminated and the second amendment repealed.

With Obama having run guns into mexico to drum up anti gun sentiment over the bodies of some border guards and hundreds of dead mexicans, running guns over to Libya, Syria, drone killings in afpak - he most certainly, at the very least, deserves to be stripped of his "Nobel Peace Prize."

 

Such things were cause for uproar when Bush was president, but now that the 'other side' has control, it is strangely silent.

 

Kinda like Obama, shartpon, Jackson, et al being strangely silent about the Michigan unions destroying a black man's hotdog cart, calling him uncle tom n**g*r...if its coming from their side, it doesnt even need to be reported on? IOTW, being progressive is more important than your race, and if you're a progressive, you get a pass for doing racist things.

[OnPhourCoughee]

Just a thought. Has anyone noticed that, in many cases, the Right wing pro gun nuts aren't the ones doing these? It seems to me that its the guy who has to steal, borrow or buy a new gun is the guy doing these. He has no clue of best choice of guns and tactics for such a thing. They seem to like military weapons. Military just gets watz cheap, light and in mass. I can think of better, so why these place and these weapons?

Scary thing, they are learning, fast.

[OnPhourCoughee]

Joe, there just may not be many Taoists to take up the fight. There is a time for every person to shine but theirs reminds me of the flower children of old. Without the solder or freedom fighter there will be no monks and the past will repeat itself.

Without the threat of revaluation, there is no power by the people for the people.

P.s. a Taoist marshal artist on the other hand...gives me cold chills.

[ShenLung]

There seems to be a sickness that has developed in American society over the past two decades that has mass murder for one of it's symptoms. I'm not quite sure what the underlying cause is, but I am certain that removing the system's antibodies (creating more gun free zones) is not a perscription for health.

Arm the teachers, make training mandatory? It would certainly make a mass murderer think twice before shooting up a school, but it doesn't treat this disease, either.

Perhaps it is a pervasive feeling of hopelessness that is causing these people to lash out at society.

[idiot_stimpy]

Governments fear their own populations and even more armed populations.

 

 

Consider the psychological effects on society's beliefs when there is crisis, and those who move in darkness to take advantage.

[gatito]

Governments fear their own populations and even more armed populations.

<snip>

 

This is very true

[idiot_stimpy]

The mouth can only be silenced when it is realized where the mouth derides its power from.

 

Does the power come from the mouth, or something deeper.

[Stosh]

In my opinion social inequity and disconnectedness are the traditional failings that increase violence

( that- and craziness )

 

Most populations are at greatest threat from thier

own

governments rather than from outside

and individuals from their

own

closest relatives rather than strangers

[idiot_stimpy]

During WW2 it was reported the Russian soldiers feared Stalin more than Hitler.

[Apech]

I have to say from this side of the Atlantic this whole discussion seems to verge on lunacy. 28 people are dead, some of them primary school children. That is the issue.

 

Your 2nd amendment says:

 

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

So the right to bear arms is clearly within the context of a 'well regulated militia. So you should have the right to bear arms if you are a member of a well regulated militia, or a policeman, or in the army or need a gun for hunting or other specified activity.

 

These sorts of killings have been going on for decades and no one has come up with a solution. If you prefer delusions of security in owning some kind of lethal firearm on the basis of paranoid fear of government ... government of a kind which happens in every civilised country on earth ... then good luck ... but expect more shootings. If perhaps you think the correct response is to arm primary school teachers then think for a moment what the classrooms will be like. Perhaps you should arm the children as well?

[Aetherous]

So the right to bear arms is clearly within the context of a 'well regulated militia. So you should have the right to bear arms if you are a member of a well regulated militia, or a policeman, or in the army or need a gun for hunting or other specified activity.

 

Not really the correct interpretation, because immediately after that it says "the right of the people" not the right of policemen et al. At least in the states, the military is something entirely different from a militia. I could create a militia today if I wanted to.

 

http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/militia

 

It's saying: the main reason why the people should have that right, is because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. How to understand that idea...

 

It's similar to how in Switzerland, basically every citizen has a weapon. Correspondingly, that would be a hard country to infiltrate and some say that's a main reason why it's still there. A defenseless population can be invaded by other nations easily...crime can rise due to no one being able to defend themselves (cops almost always show up after the crime has already taken place)...the country's military if run by corrupt leaders and politics could dominate what should be free citizens, so if they were all armed it would be less likely that the country could be corrupted so easily.

 

This is illustrative:

 

 

I thought of a solution today. Create jobs that provide more armed security guards for schools. Make them go through extensive background checks, psychological testing, etc...to ensure no unstable people are armed in schools.

 

If one or two armed guards were at that school today, this wouldn't have been nearly as large of a catastrophe.

 

Also, when building new schools and police stations...put them next to each other! That should make it more safe.

[Aetherous]

But besides that...there is something wrong with our culture, in that this symptom of mass killings is happening so often lately. People need to be lifted up by each other more, I think.

[gendao]

With Obama having run guns into mexico to drum up anti gun sentiment over the bodies of some border guards and hundreds of dead mexicans, running guns over to Libya, Syria, drone killings in afpak - he most certainly, at the very least, deserves to be stripped of his "Nobel Peace Prize."

 

Such things were cause for uproar when Bush was president, but now that the 'other side' has control, it is strangely silent.

LMAO...oh, the painfully hypocritical irony, here!

So, not a problem when our gubernment does it on a massive, worldwide scale...?

Including even handing them out to Mexican drug cartels like toys, for gawsakes!!! Yet, they want us to trust THEM for "gun control?"

 

Hmm, maybe THEY are the ones who should have their guns confiscated out of their own "humanitarian" concern, instead?

AJ covers most of these points here:

Within hours of re-election, the administration fast-tracked a treaty in the United Nations that transcends borders and tramples our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. It was no coincidence.

 

Less than 24 hours after President Obama's re-election, the U.S. Mission to the United Nations helped move the U.N.'s Arms Control Treaty a step closer to enactment

Edited December 15, 2012 by vortex

[Aetherous]

I'm not pro-Obama, and I'm not going to start any political arguments...but apparently there were actually tears in his eyes. Just saw this picture randomly, while entering into my email account.

 

 

It's the most ridiculous thing to have a discussion about whether a president was actually crying or not, so I'm not going to comment any more on that.

[ralis]

edit

Edited December 15, 2012 by ralis

[ralis]

Some of the posts here are absolutely ludicrous! Using a tragedy for political rants or any other purpose is disgusting and heartless!

[thelerner]

What solutions are there. That can actually be done. Whrrled peas, an equal society sound great but aren't exactly things we can implement. Arm everyone, armed guards in every hall, every teacher packs a piece? Once we get more guns into schools things will be better?

 

I think finding solutions after an extreme act is very hard. What solutions are laid out? More guns in schools? Every teacher packing? How many stolen each year, how many teachers are truly trained logistically and psychologically to handle a deadly weapon? Having a good friend who's a teacher in a bad neighborhood I can attest to the fact there are times he feels like mowing some pupils and faculty down.

 

Still armed police or guards in every school. Last count I there were a bit over 98,000 public schools in the U.S. Truth is many of them, mostly high schools already have guards, I know mine did. Lets look at real statistics what can realistically be done.

 

Real discussions have to go beyond politics and name calling and break down the situation realistically. I hate to say it, but sometimes there is no solution. In the U.S like everywhere else we have insane murderous people. Our society tends to glorify violence, ie video games, movies (like Scarface, where Al Pacino character became a celebrated antihero) etc., and we have a lot of guns here. Legally nearly 1 for every adult, illegally its much more.

 

What solutions could stop shootings like this and more importantly what are the true logistics of it? Given our society, I don't think there is a good solution. It may well be we can't. Too many guns too many crazies. And this may be an even darker thought. It's not a problem, statistically. More kids may be dying walking to and from school, eating peanuts and most of all gang violence then from random shooters. Extreme events may focus us on the wrong problem.

 

kinda rambling apologies

[gendao]

But besides that...there is something wrong with our culture, in that this symptom of mass killings is happening so often lately.

Well, the US is the most heavily-armed, organized terroristic mass murderer on the planet today.

We've been continuously waging preemptive wars under false pretenses for the past decade alone.

So, this ongoing behavior has programmed violence as an acceptable norm to kids.

Not to mention, due to our artificial, contaminated food supply and Big Pharma - autism has become epidemic over the last 2 decades. The alleged shooter was autistic, for one.. That in itself is not a cause...but probably didn't help and also signifies a general decline in psychological health amongst the youth here.

 

Anyhow, if our gubernment were some utopian pacifist nation who practiced what it preached, at least its intentions would be credible. Problem is, when they're not:

And if our gubernment has no problems going for broke doing this:

Well then...don't be surprised if our impressionable young'uns follow suit...

Edited December 15, 2012 by vortex

[Aetherous]

Yes, I think it has a lot to do with how we treat others locally as well as globally.

[Apech]

Not really the correct interpretation, because immediately after that it says "the right of the people" not the right of policemen et al. At least in the states, the military is something entirely different from a militia. I could create a militia today if I wanted to.

 

http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/militia

 

It's saying: the main reason why the people should have that right, is because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. How to understand that idea...

 

It's similar to how in Switzerland, basically every citizen has a weapon. Correspondingly, that would be a hard country to infiltrate and some say that's a main reason why it's still there. A defenseless population can be invaded by other nations easily...crime can rise due to no one being able to defend themselves (cops almost always show up after the crime has already taken place)...the country's military if run by corrupt leaders and politics could dominate what should be free citizens, so if they were all armed it would be less likely that the country could be corrupted so easily.

 

This is illustrative:

 

...

 

I thought of a solution today. Create jobs that provide more armed security guards for schools. Make them go through extensive background checks, psychological testing, etc...to ensure no unstable people are armed in schools.

 

If one or two armed guards were at that school today, this wouldn't have been nearly as large of a catastrophe.

 

Also, when building new schools and police stations...put them next to each other! That should make it more safe.

 

 

You say wrong interpretation ... but I think my interpretation fits better with the wording of your constitution. Switzerland does not exist because people have guns ... it exists because its banks are/were a safe haven for the gold and treasures robbed by the Nazis and others over the years. It bought its neutrality.

 

You want armed guards in Primary schools? Really? Is that better than taking the gun out the hands of the madman who shoots children?

[Apech]

http://www.upworthy.com/how-the-media-coverage-of-mass-shootings-makes-everything-worse