Looks like Obomber is going to use today's shooting to create a constitutional crisis

[gatito]

The problem with guns is that any idiot can use one

 

With one or two exceptions, martial arts take many years to learn to use effectively and during that time, appropriate safety catches are built into the weapon

[eye_of_the_storm]

Considering USA Corporation laying waste to a good portion of the planet at present... life means little to these demons... how far do you think they would go to...?

Edited December 15, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[joeblast]

I have to say from this side of the Atlantic this whole discussion seems to verge on lunacy. 28 people are dead, some of them primary school children. That is the issue. that's why I said a prayer first and foremost, but there's a war on the people - and it is being compounded by an information war.

 

Your 2nd amendment says:

 

 

 

So the right to bear arms is clearly within the context of a 'well regulated militia. So you should have the right to bear arms if you are a member of a well regulated militia, or a policeman, or in the army or need a gun for hunting or other specified activity.

 

These sorts of killings have been going on for decades and no one has come up with a solution. If you prefer delusions of security in owning some kind of lethal firearm on the basis of paranoid fear of government ... government of a kind which happens in every civilised country on earth ... then good luck ... but expect more shootings. If perhaps you think the correct response is to arm primary school teachers then think for a moment what the classrooms will be like. Perhaps you should arm the children as well?

Sometimes I wonder what foreigners are taught about US history when they are growing up. (I should probably take a look at today's curriculum for kids )

 

Some simple facts,

-the second amendment thing has been hashed over a million times and your interpretation of it ignores its roots, sorry it is simply not a valid interpretation - when "the militia" means every single able bodied man - that pretty much means everyone and not "the national guard" or the police (as much as they're beginning to resemble paramilitary forces these days)...it is there for a reason, it is there as THE very last line of defense should our government become tyrannical, abandon its roots and the documents and ideas that this country was founded upon and turn its wrath upon the people whose consent it supposedly governs by.

 

-whenever a tragedy like this occurs, the only thing that stops it is a good guy with a gun in his hand. You simply cannot prevent every single deranged person from carrying out murderous intent. Arming teachers in this instance is trying to reactively patch the problem based on a single instance of an issue.

 

 

but I think the crux of a lot of this is the piss poor way a lot of kids are being raised these days, half of it being outsourced to various entities.

 

-babying the shit out of kids and never making them stand on their own two feet, always covering for them, giving them the benefit of the doubt, never punishing them, always doormat catering to their needs can produce a thankless, honorless, gutless, selfish person - when the terrible twos are not taken care of because its tough and you dont want to be mean to your kid, when at 7, 9 they are still throwing screaming tantrums when they dont get what they want and then get it after having to sit in a chair for 5 minutes, when society will toss mom & dad in jail for disciplining their kids, when the parent's every single reason is "because I said so" and never THIS IS WHY, when at early teens the kids will just up and leave the house whether they have permission or not, flipping off mom & dad on the way out the door....

 

this is part of the production of a "member of society" who is basically a sociopath.

 

If you raise kids and they wind up killing you, then for damn sure you did a whole hell of a lot of things wrong, regardless of outside influences. FFS, society. Pay attention to your kids. Pay attention to their upbringing. IT MATTERS.

 

----------------------------

Wrt/ Obama et al being more than willing to use any excuse to reshape the foundations of the country as he so famously proclaimed...

 

I wouldnt put a goddam thing past them, I have zero trust, faith, or respect for them. It wouldnt surprise me in the least that the Cloward Piven strategy and Rules for Radicals are their two operational handbooks and the transmogrification of the country into a bankrupt fascist state so weakened by the whole thing that ceding sovereignty to the UN and the one world government is part of the plan of theirs.

 

You can only make the world "perfectly equal" by destroying the united states. Make it hated, bankrupt it, choke off its productivity, and then take away the explicitly designed rights of the country.

 

That is what "progressivism's" goal for the united states is. The ends are justified by any means. The transgressions committed by others who merely wanted to shape the world according to their whims (by handing out guns, making war) are merely contextual launchpads for the cabal of anti american interests we have running the country these days, who also want to shape the world according to their whims (which includes handing out guns, just so long as they're not here at home; making war also) - and it means every country accepting the One government at the top.

 

I seriously need to just stop looking at the news at all, ever, and focus on cultivation. wtf do I know But shit like this makes me want to have my ccp, because if the shit ever goes down in my presence, I know if I am there I would not hesitate putting a bullet into a murderous son of a bitch to protect innocent lives, even it it was at the cost of my own.

[Apech]

Sometimes I wonder what foreigners are taught about US history when they are growing up. (I should probably take a look at today's curriculum for kids )

 

 

 

I was probably taught more about American history than you were about European history ... although obviously I don't know what you were taught. But I do know that the US has been very inward looking for a long time now.

 

The phrasing of the 2nd amendment it seems to me specifically talks about a well regulated militia and it is those which chose to ignore this that have formulated the current interpretation. Ok yes, perhaps the founding fathers were trying to prevent an overbearing government or dictatorship ... that's seems reasonable ... but the context is groups of sensible people with muskets standing up for their right of self determination.

 

These kinds of events (the shooting) occur in a lot of places not just the US. There have been examples in England, Germany and Norway for example so I am not trying to say that it is something totally specific to the US or that the US is a bad place ... just a very big place with a lot of personal freedom ... for which I am thankful. What i am trying to suggest is that looking for a response to this awful event without thinking about controlling in some way the availability of the weapons which allow them to happen seems quite odd.

 

BTW I realise you started the OP with 'prayers' but the title of the thread calls your democratically elected president (2nd term) Obomba ... as if he somehow was part of the problem while actually i suspect he is just wrestling to find a solution which is acceptable to most people ... like any sane human would do.

[joeblast]

wrestling to find a solution...yup, wrasslin allright...more like russlin', what thieves out in the wild west did to cattle..

 

"to get gun control, Obama must use his bully pulpit and exploit this"

 

http://www.washingto...ust-exploit-sh/

 

what was that about dog whistle...

Edited December 15, 2012 by joeblast

[Aetherous]

You say wrong interpretation ... but I think my interpretation fits better with the wording of your constitution.

 

Well, I attempted to show how it doesn't fit at all...but it's all good. If you're actually interested, you can look into it some more with an open mind. I'm sure there are books or articles you can read that discuss the actual meaning.

 

Switzerland does not exist because people have guns ... it exists because its banks are/were a safe haven for the gold and treasures robbed by the Nazis and others over the years. It bought its neutrality.

 

Maybe so. I really don't know, and only heard that gun argument recently. It was said that the Nazis avoided Switzerland mostly because of that...but it could have been also that they bought themselves peace. Maybe a combination of both...who really knows? History is written by some guys named Victor.

 

You want armed guards in Primary schools? Really? Is that better than taking the gun out the hands of the madman who shoots children?

 

Yes really. What's so scary about armed guards? The one at my high school was really nice. Their presence doesn't bring violence into a school...but protection. They could have put a stop to this thing early on, instead of 20 defenseless kids and some others dying. Most of these mass shootings are happening because there isn't anyone carrying concealed in the area. If someone were, it wouldn't be a mass shooting.

 

You can't take the guns out of the hands of criminals. It's a black market...making laws, confiscating, etc, has no effect. It's like the war on drugs - they are everywhere. I can go out in my city today and find pretty much any drug I want, despite them being highly illegal. With guns, I'm sure in most American cities, you could ask around and eventually find an illegal firearm. Maybe one that used to be legal, but the serial was scratched off. I even found directions online for making your own, if you have the right equipment. With a few thousand, anyone can do it and no one would know it's happening. People could smuggle guns in from Canada or Mexico, or on boats. If guns were totally illegal, except for law enforcement and military, you'd probably hear of a lot of cases of those guns being stolen.

 

I understand why people would want to abolish all guns. It would make them feel safe if there are no dangerous things around (apparently those people totally trust government and police). But it's impossible...it wouldn't work due to criminals not giving a fuck about the law...it would weaken the law abiding people of the country, making them defenseless against all things...and it's in clear writing: shall not be infringed.

 

I think people who don't live in this country don't really comprehend what it's like here. We were founded on entirely different principles than what most of the world is used to...unfortunately, there are many Americans who would still rather have someone lording over them than to taste freedom. What's said of us to the international world is incredibly misleading, most of the time. I guess, it's easy to be a critic of another country...I'm extremely critical of the UK for instance...but it's not like I really know what it's like to be there.

[Apech]

Well, I attempted to show how it doesn't fit at all...but it's all good. If you're actually interested, you can look into it some more with an open mind. I'm sure there are books or articles you can read that discuss the actual meaning.

 

I have read about it and know therefore that although your interpretation is the current one, there is an alternative and case law history which suggests something closer to the one I was suggesting (e.g. US v miller). So when you speak of actual meaning ... it is the case that different people have understood it differently at different times.

 

Maybe so. I really don't know, and only heard that gun argument recently. It was said that the Nazis avoided Switzerland mostly because of that...but it could have been also that they bought themselves peace. Maybe a combination of both...who really knows? History is written by some guys named Victor.

 

Also I would add that Switzerland is alpine terrain difficult to conquer and part german speaking anyway ... so there's lots of reasons that Mr. Hitler didn't bother.

 

Yes really. What's so scary about armed guards? The one at my high school was really nice. Their presence doesn't bring violence into a school...but protection. They could have put a stop to this thing early on, instead of 20 defenseless kids and some others dying. Most of these mass shootings are happening because there isn't anyone carrying concealed in the area. If someone were, it wouldn't be a mass shooting.

 

You can't take the guns out of the hands of criminals. It's a black market...making laws, confiscating, etc, has no effect. It's like the war on drugs - they are everywhere. I can go out in my city today and find pretty much any drug I want, despite them being highly illegal. With guns, I'm sure in most American cities, you could ask around and eventually find an illegal firearm. Maybe one that used to be legal, but the serial was scratched off. I even found directions online for making your own, if you have the right equipment. With a few thousand, anyone can do it and no one would know it's happening. People could smuggle guns in from Canada or Mexico, or on boats. If guns were totally illegal, except for law enforcement and military, you'd probably hear of a lot of cases of those guns being stolen.

 

I understand why people would want to abolish all guns. It would make them feel safe if there are no dangerous things around (apparently those people totally trust government and police). But it's impossible...it wouldn't work due to criminals not giving a fuck about the law...it would weaken the law abiding people of the country, making them defenseless against all things...and it's in clear writing: shall not be infringed.

 

I think people who don't live in this country don't really comprehend what it's like here. We were founded on entirely different principles than what most of the world is used to...unfortunately, there are many Americans who would still rather have someone lording over them than to taste freedom. What's said of us to the international world is incredibly misleading, most of the time. I guess, it's easy to be a critic of another country...I'm extremely critical of the UK for instance...but it's not like I really know what it's like to be there.

 

I'm not extremely critical ... or even critical of the US generally ... I'm suppose I'm critical of some of its foreign policy but then when I think of the alternatives ... well I'd rather America as the superpower than anywhere else because of 'individual liberty and rule of law'. I'm not sure why you are 'extremely critical' of the UK but it sounds like you haven't been there. But I am sure there's plenty to dislike about if you so choose. Generally I would say we have similar values but the way in which our cultures have evolved is different ... so the result is different.

 

Personally i would not like to send a young child to school where the presence of armed guards was thought necessary. That is if I had a choice. generally speaking the police in the UK are not armed ... while the criminals often are ... but they still manage to deal with it in most cases.

[Aetherous]

From US v Miller:

 

"The significance attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

 

Personally i would not like to send a young child to school where the presence of armed guards was thought necessary

 

How can it be thought as unnecessary, after yesterday? That's a weird argument, Apech.

[三江源]

Personally i would not like to send a young child to school where the presence of armed guards was thought necessary

 

I dont know anybody who would not say the exact same thing.

This is because I live somewhere without a gun culture. Most if us have never ever seen a gun except on tv.

[Apech]

From US v Miller:

 

 

 

 

 

How can it be thought as unnecessary, after yesterday? That's a weird argument, Apech.

 

yes that quote shows I think that the right to bear arms was viewed in the context of a 'well regulated militia' ... I realise you don't agree with this but it is a rational argument.

 

Its not a weird argument ... its a feeling or preference based on how I would like to see young children brought up ... i.e. not thinking violence and guns are either normal or necessary in an environment away from war or hunting etc.

[Aetherous]

Well, I understand how you are feeling...but thinking rationally, the young children that died yesterday were actually brought up in an environment where violence and guns weren't allowed. As far as I'm aware, guns were banned in that school. And look what happened.

 

I understand that coming from a totally different cultural mindset, you assume that guns and (bad) violence go hand in hand...rather than being aware of the reality, that self defense (which doesn't necessarily include violence) is preferable over being defenselessly slaughtered.

 

I don't want to argue any more than this. I'm still trying to deal with hearing about it...and trying to not discuss politics or other controversial things these days, for my cultivation. So, sorry for getting involved in the discussion.

[ShenLung]

Gun is a physical manifestation of the desire to affect physical matter at a distance.

When Gun is used to harm others, it is a negative expression of selfish desires.

Elimination of one possible physical manifestation does not prevent these desires from being manifest.

The solution is in that part, the negative selfish desire.

As always, people attempt to address the symptoms of a problem, and leave the problem unsolved.

[madMUHHH]

Edit: Ahhh, forget about it.

Edited December 15, 2012 by madMUHHH

[Apech]

Well, I understand how you are feeling...but thinking rationally, the young children that died yesterday were actually brought up in an environment where violence and guns weren't allowed. As far as I'm aware, guns were banned in that school. And look what happened.

 

I understand that coming from a totally different cultural mindset, you assume that guns and (bad) violence go hand in hand...rather than being aware of the reality, that self defense (which doesn't necessarily include violence) is preferable over being defenselessly slaughtered.

 

I don't want to argue any more than this. I'm still trying to deal with hearing about it...and trying to not discuss politics or other controversial things these days, for my cultivation. So, sorry for getting involved in the discussion.

 

I value reading your opinions/thoughts I find it helpful to hear different views and try to understand them ... and also respect your wish to withdraw.

[madMUHHH]

I value reading your opinions/thoughts I find it helpful to hear different views and try to understand them ... and also respect your wish to withdraw.

 

Lol, I guess you liked my post, before I edited. Cause it looks kinda odd the way it is now.

 

Edit: Basically I was just mirroring Apech attitude and stating my bafflement at this thread and my difficulty of me as a German with the corresponding cultural upbringing even remotely wrapping my head around some of the opinions raised here.

 

But whatever, one thing I wanted to add to this discussion, is that I personally, whether it's legal or not, do not even remotely care about owning a gun. I simply do not want to be in the possession of an object whose single purpose it is to kill people. If that means that this will make it more likely that I'll be killed by a gunshot without being able to defend myself, fine. That's a price I'm willing to pay. (And I mean a gunshot specifically, as a good martial arts practice could take care of pretty much everything else. Not that I'm practicing any, but whatever. Actually I think a good martial arts practice should even be able to take care of most people pointing a gun at you. By means of mediation.) You might call this naive or idealistic, and you might be right about that. But that alone won't convince me otherwise.

[Aetherous]

If that means that this will make it more likely that I'll be killed by a gunshot without being able to defend myself, fine. That's a price I'm willing to pay.

 

Are you also willing to pay the price of choosing not to defend other innocent people? Would you be willing to pay the price of 20 children, just because you dislike the idea of guns?

 

Just presenting an alternative point of view...which is currently on my mind in a very real and practical way. This actually happened yesterday. People like us were there. Maybe it will happen somewhere I'm at in the future. Can I accept being unable to defend the innocent?

 

My reasons why I don't own a firearm or concealed carry, are that 1) I think the law would eat me alive if I actually used it for self defense...and 2) I don't want to ever have it as a possibility that someone could pickpocket it off of me.

 

I'm kind of not caring so much about #1 at the moment...in light of the bolded contemplation.

 

These are individual choices, in some countries. Respect to all decisions...we all lead our lives in different ways. I just wanted to present another way of looking at it...not to question your decision and thinking personally, madMUHHH.

[eye_of_the_storm]

https://www.youtube....h?v=p_ODW4JG9y8

 

Another gov black ops?

Edited December 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[OnPhourCoughee]

 

 

Not really the correct interpretation, because immediately after that it says "the right of the people" not the right of policemen et al. At least in the states, the military is something entirely different from a militia. I could create a militia today if I wanted to.

 

http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/militia

 

It's saying: the main reason why the people should have that right, is because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. How to understand that idea...

 

It's similar to how in Switzerland, basically every citizen has a weapon. Correspondingly, that would be a hard country to infiltrate and some say that's a main reason why it's still there. A defenseless population can be invaded by other nations easily...crime can rise due to no one being able to defend themselves (cops almost always show up after the crime has already taken place)...the country's military if run by corrupt leaders and politics could dominate what should be free citizens, so if they were all armed it would be less likely that the country could be corrupted so easily.

 

This is illustrative:

 

 

I thought of a solution today. Create jobs that provide more armed security guards for schools. Make them go through extensive background checks, psychological testing, etc...to ensure no unstable people are armed in schools.

 

If one or two armed guards were at that school today, this wouldn't have been nearly as large of a catastrophe.

 

Also, when building new schools and police stations...put them next to each other! That should make it more safe.

Dio

[ShenLung]

https://www.youtube....h?v=p_ODW4JG9y8

 

Another gov black ops?

 

Tag end of that video, where the incident in China is mentioned ... what was the weapon used? a KNIFE?

Some countries have laws outlawing the use of knives.

You know who you are.

Has that prevented KNIFE violence? really? the stats are out there.

The sickness is still NOT BEING ADRESSED.

[OnPhourCoughee]

I'm in a truck stop dinner, hear the same arguments.

[ShenLung]

I am of the opinion that we are, currently, witnessing what will in future civilizations be refered to the "fall of the American Empire"

Individual examples such as the death of a mere 20 children will be forgotten, since in the context of the loss of billions of lives, they willl be regarded as meaningless. For those temporarly challenged observing todays news, however, these events are horrifying. I am cursed, it seems, to look upon my fellow man and see their bones walking, clad in flesh and bearing the semblence of some mortal being. It's a crappy prophetic vision, and I don't appreciate it, thank you.

Long time, geological time has a tendency to put a certain spin upon current events.

 

I burned my dinner. To me, this is tragedy.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Tag end of that video, where the incident in China is mentioned ... what was the weapon used? a KNIFE?

Some countries have laws outlawing the use of knives.

You know who you are.

Has that prevented KNIFE violence? really? the stats are out there.

The sickness is still NOT BEING ADRESSED.

 

Here is the article that was addressed at the end of the video

 

22 children and elderly woman stabbed outside primary school by Chinese knifeman

• No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010
  
• Latest in series of similar attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens
  

http://www.dailymail...e-knifeman.html

Edited December 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Knife crime in my country became a lot more pronounced once guns had been made illegal. Also home invasions and other crimes escalated as the general, law abiding and relatively sane population became totally defenseless against criminal minds.

 

These facts are not released to the general public... one has to look into police records/ reports and so on.

 

Also note... as has been highlighted before...

 

A good number of times the removal of citizen militia has resulted in 10s of millions of murdered civilians. (unbelievable...yes... horrific... yes)

 

Ponerology is the name given by Polish psychiatrist Andrzej Łobaczewski to an interdisciplinary study of social injustice.^[1] This discipline makes use of data from psychology, sociology, philosophy, and history to account for such phenomena as aggressive war, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and police states. The original theory and research was conducted by psychologists and psychiatrists working in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary in the years prior to the institution of Communism and the work of Kazimierz Dąbrowski and Stefan Blachowski.^[2]

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ponerology

 

Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientist R. J. Rummel as "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder." Rummel created the term as an extended concept to include forms of government murder that are not covered by the term genocide, and it has become accepted among other scholars.^[1][2][3] Rummel presents his definition without referencing any previous uses, but the term democide was defined and used in English more than 40 years earlier by Theodore Abel.^[4] In the 20th century, democide passed war as the leading cause of non-natural death (according to Rummel).^[5]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Edited December 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Protector]

ooh ooh look at this picture I found

OK, you looked at it, now back to work

[zanshin]

I think everyone is trying to understand why and how this could happen. It doesn't work, you can't apply reasons and use logic to figure out something is that is absolutely illogical.