Immortal Chung on cultivation problems

[Taomeow]

"The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality: The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu," translated by Eva Wong.

 

"Chung said:

'The ghost immortal is the lowest class of immortal. Ghost immortals are beings who have attained immortality in the realm of the dead. Their spirit is dim and they have neither name nor title. Although they are not forced to be reborn, they are not able to enter the Peng-lai lands of immortality. They wander about in limbo between the realms of the living and the dead, and their existence comes to an end if they chose to be reborn into the human realm.'

'People become ghost immortals when they try to cultivate but do not understand the Tao. Wanting to make fast progress, they take shortcuts in their training. As a result, their bodies are as brittle as dry wood and their minds are as dead as cold ashes. Hoping to keep the spirit within, they hold on to their intention. Thus, when they enter stillness, only the yin spirit is liberated. As a result, they become ghosts with no spirit; they cannot become immortals of pure yang. Because the yin spirit does not dissipate after they die, they are called ghost immortals. Although these beings are classified as immortals, they are really ghosts with no substance. Practitioners who claim to be Buddhist and who practice incorrectly the techniques of quiet sitting usually end up as this type of immortal.'"

[Long Yun]

Sorry to bring this up after so long.

 

I'm in the process of getting this text, but in the mean time, perhaps you could tell me if it happens to say anything about what the "incorrect methods of quiet sitting" are? I'd appreciate it.

[松永道]

Edited April 18, 2009 by 松永道

[Long Yun]

Well, the reason I ask is that I'm looking to pursue a stillness meditation for a while to tame my mind. I'm thinking the mind has to be tamed before practicing Internal Alchemy, and while reading the preview of "Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu" on amazon, I came across the passage mentioning only liberating the yin and not the yang spirit.

 

So, would the meditation mentioned in Thomas Cleary's "Secret of the Golden Flower" be considered a correct method? I don't think that it refers to alchemy, as Cleary claims, but to a meditation process that leaves the mind tamed. The method involves looking inward toward the source of thought, in other words, actively searching for stillness, not forcing it. Stillness would be spontaneous, and since it's an active pursuit, it seems yang.

 

Is the passage quoted by Taomeow stating that all Buddhists incorrectly practice quiet sitting, or that some who claim to be and are not Buddhists incorrectly practice it?

[Taomeow]

Is the passage quoted by Taomeow stating that all Buddhists incorrectly practice quiet sitting, or that some who claim to be and are not Buddhists incorrectly practice it?

It is my understanding that not "all" Buddhists practice incorrectly -- only those who belittle, disown, despise, or neglect the body and all its multiple normal natural needs that aren't reducible to "quiet sitting," and those who belittle, disown, despise, or neglect their human mind, and those who belittle, disown, despise, or neglect the human nature of humans in general and their own humanity in particular... If they do that on whatever theoretical grounds, it's ghostland, man... Gautama Buddha himself learned it the hard way! -- but he learned... it's amazing how many of his followers manage to skip over that particular lesson...

 

gotta run, more later...

[forestofsouls]

Song Yong Dao,

 

I find your comparisons of Taoism and Buddhism to be apt and lacking in the usual subtle anti-Buddhist sentiment often found in these comparisons. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this and the different kinds of Shen. How are each cultivated?

 

Wu Liu,

 

The term that pops into my head reading these is "dead tree Zen." This is usually applied to practicioners that only cultivate a certain mental emptiness.

 

What you're talking about is a classic technique prevalent in not only Zen/Chan literature, but in Advaita as well.

[Long Yun]

So, this technique, which I am summarizing based on some glances at Cleary's SOGF, sounds ok?

 

-Lower the eyes

 

-Establish a reference point

 

-Tune the breathing (listen to it's soundlessness)

 

-Seek the source of awareness (when a thought arises, pursue it: where is it, where does it come from, where does it go)

 

 

This is supposed to pacify the mind, as noted in the Chan Buddhist fable included by Mr. Cleary, in which the master tells the student to bring him his mind so he can pacify it for him. The student returns saying, "After looking for my mind, I realize that it cannot be found." The teacher says, "I have pacified your mind for you."

 

I don't think the Cleary SOGF goes beyond mind pacification. Any objections?

[Stigweard]

Thank you Song Yongdao for your introduction to The Classic of Chong and Lu.

 

It is always intriguing how threads will become congruent along the same lines. Over in Importance of yin ang yang exorcist_1699 and I were thrashing out the Yin/Yang relevance of Shen.

 

exorcist_1699's point of view was that Post-Heaven Shen is Yin and Pre-Heaven Shen is Yang whilst I had the perception that Shen is Yang as per relationship of Heaven and Earth.

 

Now after reading some of The Classic of Chong and Lu I am left with the feeling that we have a Hun/Po designation of Yang Shen and Yin Shen indicated by:

 

"Their bodily form has been transmuted into vapor; the five vapors have reverted back into the one primordial vapor and the three yang essences have gathered at the top of the head."

 

So what would your comments be on the Yin/Yang nature of Shen and its pratical implications for personal cultivation?

 

Edited April 20, 2009 by Stigweard

[Sloppy Zhang]

This is all very interesting sounding stuff....

 

But isn't this all just at the lowest level? Yin/Yang, isn't it all just still the whole duality and judgment concept that we (Daoist, Buddhist, whatever), are trying to get OUT of? Aren't we trying to NOT make these distinctions?

 

If there is a distinction, won't they become known through practice and all that?

 

I dunno, most of it's above my head anyway

[Stigweard]

Edited April 20, 2009 by Stigweard

[WhiteTiger]

Intriguing!

 

I would love to hear more about, Ghost Immortality, Human Immortality, Earthly Immortality, Heavenly Immortality AND Spiritual Immortality.

 

If, 松永道 would be willing to translate or even someone else. Loosely is more then fine for me.

[松永道]

This is all very interesting sounding stuff....

 

But isn't this all just at the lowest level? Yin/Yang, isn't it all just still the whole duality and judgment concept that we (Daoist, Buddhist, whatever), are trying to get OUT of? Aren't we trying to NOT make these distinctions?

 

If there is a distinction, won't they become known through practice and all that?

 

The lowest level is the most important. It's the foundation. Understanding comes through practice.

 

I find your comparisons of Taoism and Buddhism to be apt and lacking in the usual subtle anti-Buddhist sentiment often found in these comparisons. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this and the different kinds of Shen. How are each cultivated?

 

Despite the perceived rivalry, Buddhism and Daoism have an equally long history of cooperation. Though they both present complete systems, I would say because Buddhist cultivation emphasizes the mental/spiritual and Daoism, the physical/energetic it's good to study each for its strengths.

 

Now after reading some of The Classic of Chong and Lu I am left with the feeling that we have a Hun/Po designation of Yang Shen and Yin Shen.

 

 

I'm interested in writing a more in depth article on this later. For now I'll give a very brief outline. I'm assuming a basic familiarization with the terms Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi.

 

For now I'll just touch on four different designations of Shen, two common to everyone and two practiced into being.

 

Shi Shen (识神): This is the post-heaven Shen. It's our daily mind. The Shi Shen loves movement. It loves stimulation. Most of all it loves your attention. Maybe it's our inner toddler. The Shi Shen is an ego maniac. It wants to trick you into believing you're it.

 

Yuan Shen (元神): This is the pre-heaven Shen or original Shen. The Yuan Shen loves stillness. Generally speaking, the Yuan Shen won't wake until death or near death. But if you can completely calm the Shi Shen, the Yuan Shen will begin to stir. And so the Sage hacks the system and dies before dying.

 

Yin Shen (阴神): Much like the Shi Shen, it is associated with Po and so associated with emotions and ultimately ego. Po, corporeal spirit of the Lung network, governs Qi. A Yin Shen practice, therefore, develops the ability of the mind, Shi Shen, to control Qi. The practices can be very powerful but they never eliminate the Shi Shen. Developing Po is like acquiring material wealth, you don't take it with you.

 

Yang Shen (阳神): Yang Shen is associated with Hun. Hun is said to be our immortal aspect. Yang Shen practice is also called Three Immortals practice in the Ling Bao Bi Fa. Wei Bo Yang outlines two methods for achieving Yang Shen, the Greater Virtue path and the Lesser Virtue path. The Greater Virtue path is accomplished through the elimination of desires. Desireless the Jing to Qi to Shen to Xu process happens quickly and automatically. The Lesser Virtue path involves the step by step process of creating the Lower Dan Tian and undergoing the arduous alchemical process. Neither path is better or worse, nor are they mutually exclusive. Generally speaking, many start on the Lesser Virtue path to strengthen the body, the Jing, and the Will for the obvious reason that without these basic requirements, it's nearly impossible to attain the state of genuine, unattached stillness.

 

Again, generally speaking, Daoists tends to emphasize the Lesser Virtue path, Buddhists, the Greater Virtue path. In the end, they achieve the same results, but the practitioner needs to be honest with themselves which path is more suited for them at this point in time. Personally I have practiced techniques from both. And while my mind is relatively suited for entering stillness, my body does not posses the robust health required to go the whole way in stillness. Waigong is the foundation for Neigong.

 

Interestingly, there was a study conducted using Vipassana meditation. New students were divided into two groups. One group did the standard Vipassana sitting, walking, standing meditations. The other group did these meditations and also secretly engaged in a full body weight lifting routine - unknown to the vipassana teachers. After a number of weeks the instructors were asked to evaluate their students and choose which students had made the best progress. The selected students were uniformly from the weight lifting group. Our ancestors too understood the importance of cross-training.

 

So what would your comments be on the Yin/Yang nature of Shen and its pratical implications for personal cultivation?

 

I can come up with academic advice another time maybe. But personally, I think cultivation is simple. Strengthen the body, settle the mind. Cultivate Lesser Virtue practices like Taijiquan, Yoga, and/or neigong until the last of your desires fade then enter the Greater Virtue path to enlightenment. Be patient.

Edited April 20, 2009 by 松永道

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Of course it sounds weird soemtimes to some people to read this passage because it was "mis-understood" and "mis-translated" already.

 

Is the translator a taoist? a real one?

 

If not, why listen and read from someone who do not even practise in the system?

 

This was really misleading for people who are outsiders, and making so much confusions because the chiense and english do not really match and make sense.. only if you practise in the system you will know what they are talking about! The words are not "DIRECTLY" taken in this passage because they are trying to say something else!!!

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 26, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Yoda]

松永道,

 

Thanks!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Long Yun]

What you're talking about is a classic technique prevalent in not only Zen/Chan literature, but in Advaita as well.

And is this classic technique a beginning technique to pacify the mind, or is it a later, more advanced technique?

[forestofsouls]

Wu Liu,

 

It is sometimes given in the beginning, sometimes later. I have only recently had success with it, after years of focusing/vipassana type meditation.

 

Regarding calming the mind, in Buddhist sources I've found two approaches:

 

Unifying the mind by concentrated effort. This is more or less what the Taoist teachers I've run across prescribe.

 

Unifying the mind by allowing it to accept whatever arises. I think this is a more thorough approach.

 

And is this classic technique a beginning technique to pacify the mind, or is it a later, more advanced technique?

[Taomeow]

Of course it sounds weird soemtimes to some people to read this passage because it was "mis-understood" and "mis-translated" already.

 

Is the translator a taoist? a real one?

 

If not, why listen and read from someone who do not even practise in the system?

 

This was really misleading for people who are outsiders, and making so much confusions because the chiense and english do not really match and make sense.. only if you practise in the system you will know what they are talking about! The words are not "DIRECTLY" taken in this passage because they are trying to say something else!!!

Well, Eva Wong whose translation I cited is indeed a practicing, lineage taoist. (Song Yong Dao asserts she's taken some liberties with her translation; are you asserting he's taken some with his? But you've taken some with English while expressing this thought and yet I understand you! )

 

Useful things can be used without being understood in depth. I don't understand computers in any depth at all, but I use one daily. Most of your clients don't understand your Fu, yet benefit from them?..

 

Reading the writings of the Immortals in an imperfect translation does not equal being born into a taoist lineage, of course. English and Chinese, indeed, do not overlap very often. If reading imperfect translations (or perfect originals for that matter) is the only thing a person does, he or she is not practicing taoism, of course, but rather, getting a whiff, the flavor, a point of view... I got a sense that the Immortals Chung and Lu are strict disciplinarians, e.g., from reading the book. This might clash with the prevalent Western idea of taoism being a "just be" easy ride, with a popular but erroneous "anything goes, it's all good, it's all tao" point of view. So I think it's useful for some to get the original flavor from a good source, even if it's nothing more. What's cooking, steak or cake?.. or a bitter herbal decoction to cleanse one's brains?.. Just a whiff will tell... the rest is for those who get really hungry, and learn to cook by cooking, not by reading the cook book.

 

Obviously my words mean something else entirely, yet you understand what I mean, right?..

Edited April 20, 2009 by Taomeow

[forestofsouls]

Song,

 

Great! Very helpful.

 

Master Tseng Chen told us that Yuan Shen is the original mind and Shi Shen is the conditioned mind that arises in life. YS and SS decrease in ratio as you age. Is this your understanding as well?

[wudan]

Ghost are pure Yin without Yang; Immortals are pure Yang without Yin

Why immortals are only yang, is there any hiden trick ?

And whats exactly mean "pure" yang?

[Taomeow]

Why immortals are only yang, is there any hiden trick ?

And whats exactly mean "pure" yang?

The trick is called anti-martiarchy, anti-femininity, anti-Mother, Father-dominated culture. "Pure yang" is its theoretical baby.

[Long Yun]

Wu Liu,

 

It is sometimes given in the beginning, sometimes later. I have only recently had success with it, after years of focusing/vipassana type meditation.

 

Regarding calming the mind, in Buddhist sources I've found two approaches:

 

Unifying the mind by concentrated effort. This is more or less what the Taoist teachers I've run across prescribe.

 

Unifying the mind by allowing it to accept whatever arises. I think this is a more thorough approach.

Concentrated effort being what, haha? And accepting whatever arises being the SOGF (Cleary)?

 

The trick is called anti-martiarchy, anti-femininity, anti-Mother, Father-dominated culture. "Pure yang" is its theoretical baby.

Primates that we are...

[freeform]

For now I'll just touch on four different designations of Shen, two common to everyone and two practiced into being.

 

Thank you.

 

[WhiteTiger]

This might clash with the prevalent Western idea of taoism being a "just be" easy ride, with a popular but erroneous "anything goes, it's all good, it's all tao" point of view.

 

I wonder whom has an idea of Toaism being a "Just be" easy ride?

 

Surely not you TM, and more importantly anyone with just a little itty bit of experience shouldn't believe this either.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I wonder whom has an idea of Toaism being a "Just be" easy ride?

 

*raises hand*