Immortal Chung on cultivation problems

[Stigweard]

The lowest level is the most important. It's the foundation. Understanding comes through practice.

Despite the perceived rivalry, Buddhism and Daoism have an equally long history of cooperation. Though they both present complete systems, I would say because Buddhist cultivation emphasizes the mental/spiritual and Daoism, the physical/energetic it's good to study each for its strengths.

I'm interested in writing a more in depth article on this later. For now I'll give a very brief outline. I'm assuming a basic familiarization with the terms Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi.

 

For now I'll just touch on four different designations of Shen, two common to everyone and two practiced into being.

 

Shi Shen (识神): This is the post-heaven Shen. It's our daily mind. The Shi Shen loves movement. It loves stimulation. Most of all it loves your attention. Maybe it's our inner toddler. The Shi Shen is an ego maniac. It wants to trick you into believing you're it.

 

Yuan Shen (元神): This is the pre-heaven Shen or original Shen. The Yuan Shen loves stillness. Generally speaking, the Yuan Shen won't wake until death or near death. But if you can completely calm the Shi Shen, the Yuan Shen will begin to stir. And so the Sage hacks the system and dies before dying.

 

Yin Shen (阴神): Much like the Shi Shen, it is associated with Po and so associated with emotions and ultimately ego. Po, corporeal spirit of the Lung network, governs Qi. A Yin Shen practice, therefore, develops the ability of the mind, Shi Shen, to control Qi. The practices can be very powerful but they never eliminate the Shi Shen. Developing Po is like acquiring material wealth, you don't take it with you.

 

Yang Shen (阳神): Yang Shen is associated with Hun. Hun is said to be our immortal aspect. Yang Shen practice is also called Three Immortals practice in the Ling Bao Bi Fa. Wei Bo Yang outlines two methods for achieving Yang Shen, the Greater Virtue path and the Lesser Virtue path. The Greater Virtue path is accomplished through the elimination of desires. Desireless the Jing to Qi to Shen to Xu process happens quickly and automatically. The Lesser Virtue path involves the step by step process of creating the Lower Dan Tian and undergoing the arduous alchemical process. Neither path is better or worse, nor are they mutually exclusive. Generally speaking, many start on the Lesser Virtue path to strengthen the body, the Jing, and the Will for the obvious reason that without these basic requirements, it's nearly impossible to attain the state of genuine, unattached stillness.

 

Again, generally speaking, Daoists tends to emphasize the Lesser Virtue path, Buddhists, the Greater Virtue path. In the end, they achieve the same results, but the practitioner needs to be honest with themselves which path is more suited for them at this point in time. Personally I have practiced techniques from both. And while my mind is relatively suited for entering stillness, my body does not posses the robust health required to go the whole way in stillness. Waigong is the foundation for Neigong.

 

Interestingly, there was a study conducted using Vipassana meditation. New students were divided into two groups. One group did the standard Vipassana sitting, walking, standing meditations. The other group did these meditations and also secretly engaged in a full body weight lifting routine - unknown to the vipassana teachers. After a number of weeks the instructors were asked to evaluate their students and choose which students had made the best progress. The selected students were uniformly from the weight lifting group. Our ancestors too understood the importance of cross-training.

I can come up with academic advice another time maybe. But personally, I think cultivation is simple. Strengthen the body, settle the mind. Cultivate Lesser Virtue practices like Taijiquan, Yoga, and/or neigong until the last of your desires fade then enter the Greater Virtue path to enlightenment. Be patient.

Many thanks SYD ... you have helped clarify my mind and integrated snippets of teachings I have recieved. I would like it very much if I was allowed to quote your comments.

 

Warm regards

 

[Aetherous]

Interestingly, there was a study conducted using Vipassana meditation. New students were divided into two groups. One group did the standard Vipassana sitting, walking, standing meditations. The other group did these meditations and also secretly engaged in a full body weight lifting routine - unknown to the vipassana teachers. After a number of weeks the instructors were asked to evaluate their students and choose which students had made the best progress. The selected students were uniformly from the weight lifting group. Our ancestors too understood the importance of cross-training.

 

Awesome. Link?

[松永道]

Well, Eva Wong whose translation I cited is indeed a practicing, lineage taoist. (Song Yong Dao asserts she's taken some liberties with her translation; are you asserting he's taken some with his? But you've taken some with English while expressing this thought and yet I understand you! )

 

I did. I aspire not to but my experience and the teachings I have receive bias my interpretation. There is one portion that could be translated as a direct slight to Buddhism - I chose not to interpret it as such. Honestly, the comment didn't seem consistent with the rest of the text and I even wonder if it was added later on - when dealing with copies of copies of copies of the original you always have to wonder if the scribes are adding or subtracting. After all, even today in China weight is given to ancient authorities over modern ideas. How often were 'ancient' documents miraculously 'discovered' to support modern ideas?

 

Academically, translations should be exact as possible. But personally, you've got to go by gut. Here is where actually practicing the material and having a good teacher is priceless.

 

Master Tseng Chen told us that Yuan Shen is the original mind and Shi Shen is the conditioned mind that arises in life. YS and SS decrease in ratio as you age. Is this your understanding as well?

 

That's the general idea. However, I'm not sure if it works as a ratio or if it works more like a switch. Many patients hallucinate deceased friends and relatives on their death bed, forgive old grudges, and come to peace. Interestingly western science has found the pituitary gland, under stress of death, begins producing DMT. In other words, the Yuan Shen becomes active.

 

Stigweard, quote away. No worries.

 

Scotty, as for the Vipassana study, I heard it a while ago in some Ken Wilbur stuff. I'd be interested in finding the article myself.

[Jade02]

 

celestial immortal

[goldisheavy]

This is all very interesting sounding stuff....

 

But isn't this all just at the lowest level? Yin/Yang, isn't it all just still the whole duality and judgment concept that we (Daoist, Buddhist, whatever), are trying to get OUT of? Aren't we trying to NOT make these distinctions?

 

If there is a distinction, won't they become known through practice and all that?

 

I dunno, most of it's above my head anyway

 

It's impossible. If you stop making distinctions, you are making a distinction between making distinctions and not making them.

 

Know that the radiant nature of Mind cannot be blocked or stopped by anything. You can change the flavor of appearances, but you cannot change the fact that there are appearances (hence, duality).

 

Daoist explanation of one coming from Dao, then ying yang coming from one should not be viewed in terms of time.

 

It's not a historic event!

 

What it describes is the cake of Dao that exists right now. RIGHT NOW there is the level of Dao that's beyond designations (beyond even oneness). RIGHT NOW, this "level" supports another level called "one". It's the principle of wholeness. It's the principle that says that right shoulder cannot exist by itself without the left shoulder. This is wholeness. The emphasis is on non-separation. If you look at the same shoulders and emphasize the fact that one shoulder complements another and that they have different names and are relatively different and that we call one "right" and another "left", that's the level of ying and yang. But none of those are historic events.

 

So right now, there is a level of ying/yang. Right now there is a level of "one". And also right now there is a level of Dao. These levels are nothing other than levels of insight. They are not actual "levels". The designation "level" is misleading because level indicates some separate region, but in Dao there are no such regions in reality. All the regions appear to us as appearances though, which is to say, appearances have no enduring basis. This lack of enduring basis behind appearances is called "the empty nature of appearances". The fact that appearances are so compelling, visceral, bright and very believable is called "the radiant nature of mind". All this is right now. It's not like Dao birthed The One 6 thousand years ago. That kind of chronological understanding of Daoist creation myth is wrong.

[Taomeow]

I did. I aspire not to but my experience and the teachings I have receive bias my interpretation. There is one portion that could be translated as a direct slight to Buddhism - I chose not to interpret it as such. Honestly, the comment didn't seem consistent with the rest of the text and I even wonder if it was added later on - when dealing with copies of copies of copies of the original you always have to wonder if the scribes are adding or subtracting. After all, even today in China weight is given to ancient authorities over modern ideas. How often were 'ancient' documents miraculously 'discovered' to support modern ideas?

 

Well, there's a history, as long as that of cross-polination between taoism and Buddhism, of their both cooperating and clashing. A direct slight to Buddhism by a taoist is not a modern idea at all, nor is it Western. At least one source I'm relying on for making this assertion: "My Country and My People," by Li Yutang (translator, linguist, novelist, philosopher, and inventor of the Chinese typewriter, which was thought of as impossible before he invented it). In this absolutely delightful and insightful book (written in the 1930s) which I think every Westerner should read who wants to begin to understand things Chinese, he cites a classical poem by a Chinese Buddhist nun expressing profound hatred of Buddhism , just to illustrate the range of attitudes present in the society. (Traditional taoists gave a much harder time to Confucians though, whom, according to Li Yutang, they compared to "bugs crawling along a straight line ironed into someone's pants.")

[Sloppy Zhang]

It's impossible. If you stop making distinctions, you are making a distinction between making distinctions and not making them.

 

Know that the radiant nature of Mind cannot be blocked or stopped by anything. You can change the flavor of appearances, but you cannot change the fact that there are appearances (hence, duality).

 

Daoist explanation of one coming from Dao, then ying yang coming from one should not be viewed in terms of time.

 

It's not a historic event!

 

What it describes is the cake of Dao that exists right now. RIGHT NOW there is the level of Dao that's beyond designations (beyond even oneness). RIGHT NOW, this "level" supports another level called "one". It's the principle of wholeness. It's the principle that says that right shoulder cannot exist by itself without the left shoulder. This is wholeness. The emphasis is on non-separation. If you look at the same shoulders and emphasize the fact that one shoulder complements another and that they have different names and are relatively different and that we call one "right" and another "left", that's the level of ying and yang. But none of those are historic events.

 

So right now, there is a level of ying/yang. Right now there is a level of "one". And also right now there is a level of Dao. These levels are nothing other than levels of insight. They are not actual "levels". The designation "level" is misleading because level indicates some separate region, but in Dao there are no such regions in reality. All the regions appear to us as appearances though, which is to say, appearances have no enduring basis. This lack of enduring basis behind appearances is called "the empty nature of appearances". The fact that appearances are so compelling, visceral, bright and very believable is called "the radiant nature of mind". All this is right now. It's not like Dao birthed The One 6 thousand years ago. That kind of chronological understanding of Daoist creation myth is wrong.

 

That was a good explanation. Very interesting. Thanks!

[WhiteTiger]

Well, there's a history, as long as that of cross-polination between taoism and Buddhism, of their both cooperating and clashing. A direct slight to Buddhism by a taoist is not a modern idea at all, nor is it Western. At least one source I'm relying on for making this assertion: "My Country and My People," by Li Yutang (translator, linguist, novelist, philosopher, and inventor of the Chinese typewriter, which was thought of as impossible before he invented it). In this absolutely delightful and insightful book (written in the 1930s) which I think every Westerner should read who wants to begin to understand things Chinese, he cites a classical poem by a Chinese Buddhist nun expressing profound hatred of Buddhism , just to illustrate the range of attitudes present in the society. (Traditional taoists gave a much harder time to Confucians though, whom, according to Li Yutang, they compared to "bugs crawling along a straight line ironed into someone's pants.")

 

I don't think there is any justifiable reason (that's 100% right) to give any opinion on any of those three schools of thought, Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. They may hold value all in there own right... some maybe similar to others and so forth. Some may have mixed ideas. But in the end talking about non specifics about Taoists putting so much hate towards some Confucians is just you spreading ignorance, which I'm not much a fan of.

 

The teachings of the practice of Daoism\Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism has survived for at around 1,500 hundred years. Maybe not as long as the proclaimed Taoism that is 3,000+ years old. But I'm sure it works decently for a system, if it has survived for around 1,500 years.

 

Although the preachings, claims and practices of Confucianism has changed throughout history. As well as different Sects/types of Taoism, and the MANY different types of Buddhism. What your talking about is no light subject. Especially to claim Taoists looking down on Confucians.

 

It would be more helpful for me if you could give more specifics about these specific Taoists looking down on Confucians. I personally thank you MT for referencing a book which I could possibly gain a persons interpretation in hopes I could benefit from reading. I don't think referancing books to make one type of practice lesser then another is very helpful or insightful to why they for that instance were treating another system so.

 

 

Taoism, is at the core of things my real home for me.

 

Edited, because the first one was more of an attack on a person rather then constructive criticism and/or the reasons and beliefs why i think what is claimed is wrong.

Edited April 21, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist criticisms on some of Buddhist ways are always polite and implicit.

 

Because of such implicit criticism , the viewpoint about quietly sitting there, using all sorts of methods to cultivating our yin- mind ( moon viewing , visualization..etc) is not going to lead us to immortality of any kinds , is always missed by people ,especially the Western readers.

 

Taoist way is the simple : jing-qi-shen ; with yang's help, it is easier for the yin-mind to complete the triple- jump from a trivial mind to becoming a Enlightened Mind / Yang-shen.

Edited April 21, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Taomeow]

It would be more helpful for me if you could give more specifics about these specific Taoists looking down on Confucians. I personally thank you MT for referencing a book which I could possibly gain a persons interpretation in hopes I could benefit from reading. I don't think referancing books to make one type of practice lesser then another is very helpful or insightful to why they for that instance were treating another system so.

Taoism, is at the core of things my real home for me.

"My Country And My People" was written by a bright Chinese scholar educated extensively first in China and then in the West and therefore capable of bridging the two cultures and explaining one of them to the other from the insider's perspective. It was written with no preference to any one practice, with astute observations of the way they were actually practiced in China and of their real-life rather than "prescribed" attitudes toward each other. It was helpful for me to see an unbiased point of view, without any sacred cows whatsoever. The main attitude of the book is deep love for the people that doesn't turn into cloying piety toward any one school, sect, religion, custom, or tradition. It is a deeply humanistic book, which is why Buddhists and Confucians and Taoists in it are seen as human first and foremost, as Chinese humans importantly too, and described accordingly. Lack of reverence that occasionally mutually occurs between them is seen as is, without any judgments as to it being good or bad. I stand by my book recommendation (if you can find it, it might be rare -- mine is a first edition from a used books store.)

[exorcist_1699]

The trick is called anti-martiarchy, anti-femininity, anti-Mother, Father-dominated culture. "Pure yang" is its theoretical baby.

 

why viewing it from earthly eyes?

 

It more likely considers the characteristics of our Sun ; in fact , the process is from a small dot of light, gradually changing into a round , bigger and brighter ball of light...here yang refers mainly to Sun(陽) , not to man (男) .

 

In fact, the most widely worshiped gods/Buddha in China are female: Buddhist Kuanyin (觀音) and Taoist Marzu (媽祖)

Edited April 21, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[forestofsouls]

Now for yin and yang shen. I understand the other shen's, but I am not tracking these. Any descriptions?

[Owledge]

I'm relying on for making this assertion: "My Country and My People," by Li Yutang (translator, linguist, novelist, philosopher, and inventor of the Chinese typewriter, which was thought of as impossible before he invented it).

 

It is available for free here:

http://2020ok.com/books/68/my-country-and-...eople-54968.htm

or more directly here:

http://ia300228.us.archive.org/1/items/MyCountryAndMyPeople/

 

There's no convenient PDF. I made one from the multipage-TIFF using IrfanView and PDFCreator, but the comment from the first link makes it unclear whether it's OK for me to make the PDF available for download.

[WhiteTiger]

"My Country And My People" was written by a bright Chinese scholar educated extensively first in China and then in the West and therefore capable of bridging the two cultures and explaining one of them to the other from the insider's perspective. It was written with no preference to any one practice, with astute observations of the way they were actually practiced in China and of their real-life rather than "prescribed" attitudes toward each other. It was helpful for me to see an unbiased point of view, without any sacred cows whatsoever. The main attitude of the book is deep love for the people that doesn't turn into cloying piety toward any one school, sect, religion, custom, or tradition. It is a deeply humanistic book, which is why Buddhists and Confucians and Taoists in it are seen as human first and foremost, as Chinese humans importantly too, and described accordingly. Lack of reverence that occasionally mutually occurs between them is seen as is, without any judgments as to it being good or bad. I stand by my book recommendation (if you can find it, it might be rare -- mine is a first edition from a used books store.)

 

Thank you for taking time to write this more detailed account of what "My Country And My People" is all about.

 

I don't understand the need to defend the book through... You referenced it and therefore no one should have any opinions on the actual book and what its saying until they've read it. That's why I thankful when you made the reference to the book.

 

why viewing it from earthly eyes?

Exorcist_1699, makes a astute observation. Without any strings attached, in hopes you will gain benefit, but why not yourself reach to practices that go well beyond Earthly ones? (please note here I am not talking about skipping steps.)

 

edited apparently I had the wrong part quoted.

Edited April 22, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[wudan]

Now for yin and yang shen. I understand the other shen's, but I am not tracking these. Any descriptions?

I think its distinction between yin and yang shen was made for "mind understanding" to be more logicaly.

For me its kinda stupid to accept Shen like something you can just split, and split over again..

I wonder why yang shen leads you to immortality, while yin shen leads you to immaginery and stuff like that.

So where is the balance ?

[exorcist_1699]

I think its distinction between yin and yang shen was made for "mind understanding" to be more logicaly.

For me its kinda stupid to accept Shen like something you can just split, and split over again..

 

 

Shen at least can be split into yin and yang , post-heavenly and pre-heavenly .

 

Even our post-heavenly consciousness can be split into dreaming, subconscious, conscious, self-consciousness , intuition... Through practice , it is possible to write an English sentence by your write hand , draw a circle by

your left hand and sing a Japanese song simultaneously .

 

As Shen's power is much powerful than our daily life consciousness and reasoning, why it is impossible to have many splits ?

[wudan]

Shen at least can be split into yin and yang , post-heavenly and pre-heavenly .

 

Even our post-heavenly consciousness can be split into dreaming, subconscious, conscious, self-consciousness , intuition... Through practice , it is possible to write an English sentence by your write hand , draw a circle by

your left hand and sing a Japanese song simultaneously .

 

As Shen's power is much powerful than our daily life consciousness and reasoning, why it is impossible to have many splits ?

Its is possible to have many splits, however this splits aint exist in present time. I wonder if this

"knowing" each split is something we really need. Mind is one of this splits, present only in

our memory, so for me shen isnt mind or any thing like that.

 

My question is: are "you/or we all" sure that this splits (dreaming, subconscious, conscious, self-consciousness , intuition.. ) are real, or just our immaginery( or split only for knowing)? For instance, when i split rock, there

are two rocks already, but this rocks aint exist at that same place, but subconscious and conscious does.

 

Is every part of conscious allow us to do many things simultaneously, or just we only

think that they do so?

 

cheers