I am attached to my sufferings and dramas and don't want to let them go

[三江源]

Hmm. I dunno, do you reckon she heard the acknowledgement part? I know that being told to see things from another's POV without acknowledging mine at all has been a big source of suffering for me. So that part (the acknowledging part) I have to add in. It especially helps when the other people don't (or won't) get it. If she's still trying for acknowledgement, that could be it. If she's sort of stuck there for some other reason then I'm not sure what it could be.

 

Well, I acknowledged my part in her grievance catalogue. It was of no account, because she saw that I was pretty awful, like the rest of the family. I acknowledged that we dont have a conscious family.. ( who does?! )..

And yes, I take your point entirely that not being acknowledged is painful. And even so. At some point, if 'other' wont sort the issue with one, one has to be creative about it, or suffer hugely.

[Birch]

 

 

Well, I acknowledged my part in her grievance catalogue. It was of no account, because she saw that I was pretty awful, like the rest of the family. I acknowledged that we dont have a conscious family.. ( who does?! )..

And yes, I take your point entirely that not being acknowledged is painful. And even so. At some point, if 'other' wont sort the issue with one, one has to be creative about it, or suffer hugely.

 

I agree. What the creative thing to do however? Mine is not very creative, it involves removing myself from the situation.

 

Thanks Jetsun for this thread. It's more of 'rubber hits the road' one:-)

[三江源]

I agree. What the creative thing to do however? Mine is not very creative, it involves removing myself from the situation.

 

Thanks Jetsun for this thread. It's more of 'rubber hits the road' one:-)

 

yes, thanks Jetsun for this thread.

 

it's a chance to remind ourselves of the creative things we can do.

 

Removing oneself is, to me, an interim measure, a space in which to consider and process, because in the longer term, the absence of us creates a presence of rift that others have to deal with. I dont want to do that to others. And we have cut ourselves adrift when we go absent, instead of facing the music and dancing.

 

[thelerner]

We forgive others for our own sakes, not because they deserve it. We give up our desire for justice to return to peace and harmony. Justice masquerades as wanting to hurt back, thus pain goes back and forth, deeper and deeper. What is your peace of mind worth? How much do you value equanimity. How much control of your thoughts and emotions are giving to someone else? Its a balancing game ofcourse, good doesn't mean stupid. We can forgive, even forget while leaving up fences that'll protect us.

 

Its hard, but freedom can a breath away..or it take time, vispasana metta style meditations can help. Unfortunately if forgiveness isn't real the drama continues to fester. Strangely doing a good deed to the person you've targeted can be the best way to accelerate the process.

 

Perspective separates us from the saints. Too often we wallow in pettiness when we should be ..??.. doing our best..smiling at Gods creatures.. moving towards something that matters.

Edited December 17, 2012 by thelerner

[Birch]

Interesting ideas Cat. I'm contemplating my removal as definitive but realise that would mean I miss what I reckon you've suggested as an opportunity for more dancing. I don't know if I'm doing anything to anyone by removing myself. I'm sure they miss the opportunity to continue doing the thing that lead to my removal, but if they're true to form, they'll do it anyway, to whoever. They don't need me for that:-)

 

And, curiously, I don't need their continued presence to self-criticize, berate and talk rubbish at myself either. What a miracle of creation this mind is:-)

[Birch]

We forgive others for our own sakes, not because they deserve it. We give up our desire for justice to return to peace and harmony. Justice masquerades as wanting to hurt back, and it goes goes back and forth, deeper and deeper. What is your peace of mind worth? How much do you value equanimity. How much control of your thoughts and emotions are giving to someone else? Its a balancing game ofcourse, good doesn't mean stupid. We can forgive, even forget while leaving up fences that'll protect us.

 

Its hard, but freedom can a breath away..or it take time, vispasana metta style meditations can help. Unfortunately if forgiveness isn't real the drama continues to fester. Strangely doing a good deed to the person you've targeted can be the best way to accelerate the process.

 

Perspective separates us from the saints. Too often we wallow in pettiness when we should be ..??.. doing our best..smiling at Gods creatures.. moving towards something that matters.

 

http://harvard1914.wordpress.com/not-forcing-forgiveness/

[doc benway]

Meaning may well be the most important thing that exists for us in our lives, if you read Victor Frankl's book about him surviving Auschwitz there were many people who let go of everything and gave up, and the result was that they died in despair, while Vicor managed to survive because he held onto a glimmer of hope that despite the horrors of everything precious dissolving around him his life could have meaning and purpose if he survived. Just about everything we do is a search for meaning so maybe giving up the individual meaning you have attached to your personal story is just a nihilisitic act.

Meaning is as important as we make it, or as unimportant.

Giving up meaning (conceptualization) doesn't necessarily have to do with giving up hope.

It is more like giving up belief, expectation, preference.

I think maintaining hope is more like faith, which is different from any belief.

It is more that when you give up everything and let go completely, what is left is OK... or better.

No matter what anyone takes away from you, up until they take your life, you can still sit or stand and breath and be present.

And when they take your life, it's ok too, because "I" am still here in infinite variations will always be.

So you can give yourself the gift of putting aside the thoughts of the future and past for a few minutes each day, and see if you are worse for that... or perhaps better.

Or not .... you are welcome to hang on if you so choose, but if that's how you feel it should be, why question it in the first place?

In that case you can simply let go of the idea of letting go.

Anyway, sorry to ramble.

Namaste

_/\_

[Aaron]

Jetsun,

 

Why do you have to give up what makes you, you? How can you give that up? Does a monk who reaches enlightenment cease to be that monk? Does he suddenly become someone else? You can't give these things up, they're always there in the duality, but what you can do is see through them and realize that they are not everything in existence. Even then, seeing through them does not wipe them from existence, you only realize them for what they are and begin to see yourself in a complete light, not just in the light you've seen yourself in so far.

 

Aaron

[Birch]

by Clarissa Pinkola Estes

In the end, “How does one know if she has forgiven? You tend to feel sorrow over the circumstance instead of rage, you tend to feel sorry for the person rather than angry with him. You tend to have nothing left to say about it all.”

 

Aaron, there's a lot of, for want of a better term, 'misguidance' out there about this stuff.

 

[Birch]

This one looks interesting http://www.amazon.com/Reconciliation-Healing-Thich-Nhat-Hanh/dp/1935209647/ref=pd_sim_b_22

 

I haven't read it but I liked the idea that you'd be taking care of others through taking care of yourself.

[C T]

This one looks interesting http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_22

 

I haven't read it but I liked the idea that you'd be taking care of others through taking care of yourself.

 

Im a little surprised you picked that idea up from TNH.

 

I was always under the impression, having read a few of his books, that he would advocate taking care of self thru taking care of others first.

[Birch]

 

 

Im a little surprised you picked that idea up from TNH.

 

I was always under the impression, having read a few of his books, that he would advocate taking care of self thru taking care of others first.

 

Possible he's tailored his discourse to fit current modern issues.

 

Ok, I went through the sample version on Amazon. The practices suggested do actually send out to ancestors and parents. In that they're pretty similar to his usual stuff. However, he's definitely tweaked it.

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by -K-

[ShenLung]

At this point, Jetsun, dude ... I advise you to make a new account.

The statement that you posed is one that is going to have many philosphers discussing for a long time, and frankly, I don't think any of us will benefit from your reaching that "breakthrough" that we all want to see.

 

For those who are right, it will be a barrier to our own progress "look, we were right, you can learn from us"

 

ha ha

 

For those who were wrong we would still be searching, no closer to the truth, but we would still be trying to sound wise... that's where it's all at, anyway, right?

 

ha ha

 

Seriously, new account, right now. Please.

[Aaron]

At this point, Jetsun, dude ... I advise you to make a new account.

The statement that you posed is one that is going to have many philosphers discussing for a long time, and frankly, I don't think any of us will benefit from your reaching that "breakthrough" that we all want to see.

 

For those who are right, it will be a barrier to our own progress "look, we were right, you can learn from us"

 

ha ha

 

For those who were wrong we would still be searching, no closer to the truth, but we would still be trying to sound wise... that's where it's all at, anyway, right?

 

ha ha

 

Seriously, new account, right now. Please.

 

I understand you might be joking, but seriously, this isn't something one should offer as advice, even joking. I will break down a few things for you, as simply as possible, so that you might understand how one should respond to someone else's suffering, rather than make light of it and trivialize it.

 

First, anyone who experiences enlightenment understands that the truth is that duality and non-duality are the same, we only perceive them to be the different. One cannot have duality without non-duality, just as one cannot have happiness without suffering. So to think that understanding the nature of non-duality will suddenly free you from all the pangs and suffering associated with it, is not only silly, but unrealistic. Understanding non-duality merely puts duality in perspective, where we go from there is our choice.

 

Taoists choose to see pleasure and suffering as integral to our own existence, it makes us better people when we become aware of that. Understanding suffering allows you to understand your connection to others, to empathize with others, but more than that, you cannot have one without the other, as I said before they are both the different sides of the same coin. If we could choose to be rid of suffering, then we must also choose to be rid of pleasure. Enlightenment doesn't free us of these things, it allows us to see through them, to see that they are not the end all of existence, in seeing this we can transcend suffering and happiness, not see them as the entire motivation of our existence.

 

When one reaches this point in their practice, it is only natural to have fear, for they see this as the end of who they are, but that's not the case, in fact it's the beginning of deeper understanding of who they are. They can see beyond the thoughts and ideas that make them who they are to the source of what created those thoughts, they see beyond themselves to something that is indescribable. In seeing this they see, as the Buddhists say, the face that existed before their face. Now in seeing this face you don't suddenly lose your face, it remains, you just see it in perspective. As the Buddhists say, Before enlightenment you chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment you chop wood and carry water. The only difference is you do it with a greater understanding of what chopping wood and carrying water means.

 

When I chop wood, I don't chop wood just for me, but for everyone. The wood I chop is meant to help all those who need it. The water I carry is meant to quench the thirst of everyone who needs it. Before enlightenment I only chop wood and carry water for myself or those I think need it, afterwards I understand that everyone needs the wood and water I have and that no one should be denied for any reason.

 

Aaron

 

edited for the sake of compassion... Yay!

Edited December 16, 2012 by Aaron

[thetaoiseasy]

sometimes we need to add "just kidding" to the end of our posts.

[Aaron]

sometimes we need to add "just kidding" to the end of our posts.

 

Or not say anything at all. A bad joke is still a bad joke.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

by Clarissa Pinkola Estes

In the end, “How does one know if she has forgiven? You tend to feel sorrow over the circumstance instead of rage, you tend to feel sorry for the person rather than angry with him. You tend to have nothing left to say about it all.”

 

Aaron, there's a lot of, for want of a better term, 'misguidance' out there about this stuff.

 

I really like the quote. Anyone who's been there can identify with it. As for misguidance, we're all misguided sometimes, sometimes the only thing we can do is continue on our path and hope we don't fall off a cliff. Of course we should refrain from guiding others if we don't know where they're going or where they actually are as well. It would be nice if there was a GPS for the soul, that would solve a lot of problems.

 

Aaron

[thetaoiseasy]

I don't need to defend him or anything. He's a grown ass man. But clearly he's just referring to the endless arm-chair psychiatry this thread has turned out, which I contributed to. Besides, he posted this a few pages back:

 

"I think that several of us here (myself included) really want to see you make this breakthrough that you appear to be on the verge of ... but we cannot do it for you, or force you to do it. This is your life and your journey. Take as much time as you need, and good luck! I'm going to let this go now, so that that fear-panic-resistance feedback doesn't harm your progress."

[OnPhourCoughee]

'C T' "Resentment... that is like you consume the poison, and then waiting for the other person to die."

 

I don't know if these are are helping you but this does me good. A side from that, most people are well meaning but unaware of how they come across and wouldn't get it anyways.

[Aaron]

I don't need to defend him or anything. He's a grown ass man. But clearly he's just referring to the endless arm-chair psychiatry this thread has turned out, which I contributed to. Besides, he posted this a few pages back:

 

"I think that several of us here (myself included) really want to see you make this breakthrough that you appear to be on the verge of ... but we cannot do it for you, or force you to do it. This is your life and your journey. Take as much time as you need, and good luck! I'm going to let this go now, so that that fear-panic-resistance feedback doesn't harm your progress."

 

Hmm... well he should've stopped there. Anyways I edited my post. I wasn't intending to be an ass, just clarify some things. He right in this regard. The only one who holds these answers is Jetsun. The answer is within him, he just needs to look. If it helps him out, I can assure him that finding that answer will not result in the end of Jetsun, he will still be there after it's all done.

 

Of course one could pose the question, why offer psychiatric help for a spiritual problem, especially if the problem isn't psychiatric in nature?

 

Aaron

Edited December 16, 2012 by Aaron

[ShenLung]

I understand you might be joking, but seriously, this isn't something one should offer as advice, even joking. I will break down a few things for you, as simply as possible, so that you might understand how one should respond to someone else's suffering, rather than make light of it and trivialize it.

 

First, anyone who experiences enlightenment understands that the truth is that duality and non-duality are the same, we only perceive them to be the different. One cannot have duality without non-duality, just as one cannot have happiness without suffering. So to think that understanding the nature of non-duality will suddenly free you from all the pangs and suffering associated with it, is not only silly, but unrealistic. Understanding non-duality merely puts duality in perspective, where we go from there is our choice.

 

Taoists choose to see pleasure and suffering as integral to our own existence, it makes us better people when we become aware of that. Understanding suffering allows you to understand your connection to others, to empathize with others, but more than that, you cannot have one without the other, as I said before they are both the different sides of the same coin. If we could choose to be rid of suffering, then we must also choose to be rid of pleasure. Enlightenment doesn't free us of these things, it allows us to see through them, to see that they are not the end all of existence, in seeing this we can transcend suffering and happiness, not see them as the entire motivation of our existence.

 

When one reaches this point in their practice, it is only natural to have fear, for they see this as the end of who they are, but that's not the case, in fact it's the beginning of deeper understanding of who they are. They can see beyond the thoughts and ideas that make them who they are to the source of what created those thoughts, they see beyond themselves to something that is indescribable. In seeing this they see, as the Buddhists say, the face that existed before their face. Now in seeing this face you don't suddenly lose your face, it remains, you just see it in perspective. As the Buddhists say, Before enlightenment you chop wood and carry water, after enlightenment you chop wood and carry water. The only difference is you do it with a greater understanding of what chopping wood and carrying water means.

 

When I chop wood, I don't chop wood just for me, but for everyone. The wood I chop is meant to help all those who need it. The water I carry is meant to quench the thirst of everyone who needs it. Before enlightenment I only chop wood and carry water for myself or those I think need it, afterwards I understand that everyone needs the wood and water I have and that no one should be denied for any reason.

 

As for Jetsun, there is absolutely no reason for him to do anything you suggested, and I assure you he wont do any of that, because he is not that kind of person. If you had been around here long enough you'd understand that. In the few weeks you've been a member you seem to believe you know what he should do. This is like a man who walks up to a person with a fever and shouts "cut off his arm" without really knowing why the man has a fever. My recommendation, listen more, talk less.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Also, this lends to the idea that there are bad questions, and maybe they are, but there is never a reason not to ask a question, if you truly need an answer to it.

 

I really appreciate you flaming me, Aaron, because it helps me remember that, although I might like to think of myself as a spiritual being having a human experience, your sound wisdom brings me back to the reality that I am only a semi evolved monkey pretending to be on a spiritual journey.

Thank You.

I will not ever (eek, absolutes! ) deny that I have issues with my own ego. I regard this to be a major block in my own progress to enlightenment. Please, by all means, smack me when I get too big of a head.

I suggest that our author in this thread create a new persona for this very reason. If he were to make the breakthrough, I could claim that I helped in that respect, and, even if that were true, it would harm me in my own progress.

It is not for him, you see, but for me. I am selfish that way.

I am a selfish bloviating windbag with a great big fat ego. Go easy on me, I am still learning to be.

[Birch]

"Of course one could pose the question, why offer psychiatric help for a spiritual problem, especially if the problem isn't psychiatric in nature?"

 

Where's the line drawn? Back to the old Shen, qi, jing thing:-)

 

http://www.chinese-medicine-works.com/pdfs/chinese_med_and_the_mind.pdf

Edited December 16, 2012 by -K-

[OnPhourCoughee]

Many talk much, most say little, few hear.

[C T]

Possible he's tailored his discourse to fit current modern issues.

 

Ok, I went through the sample version on Amazon. The practices suggested do actually send out to ancestors and parents. In that they're pretty similar to his usual stuff. However, he's definitely tweaked it.

 

Ah, yes... the same tweaking thought crossed my mind shortly after i had responded to your post.

 

We're on the same wave, eh?

[Aaron]

I really appreciate you flaming me, Aaron, because it helps me remember that, although I might like to think of myself as a spiritual being having a human experience, your sound wisdom brings me back to the reality that I am only a semi evolved monkey pretending to be on a spiritual journey.

Thank You.

I will not ever (eek, absolutes! ) deny that I have issues with my own ego. I regard this to be a major block in my own progress to enlightenment. Please, by all means, smack me when I get too big of a head.

I suggest that our author in this thread create a new persona for this very reason. If he were to make the breakthrough, I could claim that I helped in that respect, and, even if that were true, it would harm me in my own progress.

It is not for him, you see, but for me. I am selfish that way.

I am a selfish bloviating windbag with a great big fat ego. Go easy on me, I am still learning to be.

 

Hi Shenlun,

 

You're very welcome, but keep in mind this kind of reply just seems to reinforce your own negative perceptions of yourself. And although there was some truth regarding your self evaluation, it doesn't mean it's healthy to dwell on those negative aspects. I will concur, you have a long way to go spiritually before you should start offering others advice, but don't be so hard on yourself, I'm sure your intentions were good.

 

Aaron