Mantak Chia's Cosmic Fusion and Fusion of the Five Elements

[Horus]

I recently read an article by Michael Winn about clearifying confusion about the fusion of the 5 elements practices.

 

I'd like to know if any of you have done chia's fusion of the five elements and cosmic fusion exercises?

 

My questions are regarding the change in state of consciousness experienced, and side effects concerns etc.

 

I am interested in the exercises. I just thought I'd try for some feedback here first.

 

Michael suggests that cosmic fusion is better performed first, prior to the fusion of the five elements. His reasons below:

 

When I was at Tao Garden four years ago, I ran into many people who were overwhelmed by negative feelings because they were fusing all their negative emotions at once into a single pearl. But their negative emotions were not transforming, they were just jammed into a single point of very "stuck" consciousness. This can be shifted easily by first charging up one¹s pearls with "te", the virtuous qualities of the Tao that are flowing into our physical body-minds (Later Heaven) from our pre-natal self (Early Heaven).

 

By first absorbing our POTENTIAL power for love & acceptance into the heart pearl, kindness into the liver pearl, gentle wisdom into the kidney pearl, integrity/strength into the metal pearl, and trust/openness into the spleen pearl, we build a reservoir of yuan chi in our emotional body that then allows us to more easily dissolve our negative emotional patterns back into yuan chi. The pearl is a just post natal accumulation of yuan chi.

 

The practical implication of this is that for westerners I believe it is important to practice the Creation Cycle BEFORE the Control Cycle. This effectively means REVERSING THE FUSION FORMULA SEQUENCE: nurture the five shen (vital organ "spirits or body intelligences" with the Fusion II formula before you attempt to dissolve negative emotions with the Fusion I formula.

 

Does anyone has some experience reagrding this?

 

Does anyone have either experience feeling what he describes as feeling "overwhelmed by negative feelings" via the Fusion of the five elements work,

 

or does anyone have experience in reversing the formulas as he describes?

 

Can anyone comment on the permenant changes that take place by anchoring the "spritual feotus" in the lower abdomen?

 

Any other comments?

[Alchemistgeorge]

I've done the practices.

 

Was never overwhelmed by any negative emotions, usually was overwhelmed by an pervasive sense of calm and tranquility. When I first learned them they were called Fusion I, II, and III, and they are pretty amazing practices. They do require good focus.

 

I've usually done the creation cycle after blending and balancing the emotions.

 

FWIW I've taken the Fusion classes several times from Mantak Chia and I own Michael Winn's Fusion instruction CDs. Michael has some interesting (and I think good) perspectives on teaching American vs. Chinese students. I've only taken a couple of classes from him (at Taoist Summer Camp), he is a good teacher (imho).

[Horus]

Thanks

Alchemistgeorge

 

Do you have any comments regarding the spiritual feotus development? It's a strange concept to get the head around...

[Alchemistgeorge]

first I wanted to say that the change that Michael Winn is suggesting is very easy. First you make a pearl, then you move it through the organs in the sequence of the creation cycle feeling the positive emotions, each creating the next, then you bring the pearl back to the caldron and start collecting the negative energies from each organ to blend/balance & refine. The way I was originally taught was make a pearl, balance the emotions, do the creation cycle. This may all sound daunting, but its just like learning to drive a car - at first there are million things to notice and do and then it all becomes automatic.

 

second, I completely agree with Michael's 'gradualist' approach - learn something, practice it, then learn the next step. That was the way Mantak Chia was taught and learned. My internal clock is that I'm not on the road to learning something until I've put 100 hours into it.

 

 

"Take your time", "practice diligently", "be patient", "develop skill" doesn't sell well in our current fast-paced instant gratification society. Where is the $1.99 'become a Taoist Immortal' iPhone App?

 

Thanks

Alchemistgeorge

 

Do you have any comments regarding the spiritual feotus development? It's a strange concept to get the head around...

 

I've not done the "immortal practices" - starting with lesser Kan & Li - which includes the "self intercourse" - where you combine your own male and female energies to conceive and give birth to yourself. I certainly know plenty of people who have done this, its not something I've heard a lot of chatter about, I've talked in depth about it with a couple of the senior instructors who told me some of the personal experiences, so I have no doubts about the reality of it.

[Horus]

"Take your time", "practice diligently", "be patient", "develop skill" doesn't sell well in our current fast-paced instant gratification society. Where is the $1.99 'become a Taoist Immortal' iPhone App?

 

 

 

I've not done the "immortal practices" - starting with lesser Kan & Li - which includes the "self intercourse" - where you combine your own male and female energies to conceive and give birth to yourself. I certainly know plenty of people who have done this, its not something I've heard a lot of chatter about, I've talked in depth about it with a couple of the senior instructors who told me some of the personal experiences, so I have no doubts about the reality of it.

 

Thanks George..

 

I'm very much of the slowly approach. I find it builds far more when it is gradual and soft, whatever exercise. It becomes part of your life, rather than something you do.

 

Regarding the birth of the spiritual foetus, I have no doubt. I'm not 100% on the concept yet though...

 

What are the permenant changes in cosciousness that occur after the conception of the spiritual fetus?

[Horus]

I have reservations with this, because it seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

 

We are all immortal - and I don't need a spiritual foetus to retain the personality after death. I know plenty of spirits that didn't do that kind of alchemy (or any other) and their personaility survives death.

 

To me, my reservations are grounded in the fact that it sounds like it is avoiding crossing over into the light...?

 

There are many souls that use such mechanics to avoid crossing over, and remain in the inbetween realms - not necessaily working in the light.

 

Then I partly feel that this whole process would unfold naturally, and that in the highly evolved soul returning - they have a spiritual fetus develop early and mature fully during their lifetime - without the formulaic approach - rather that the sheer size of their light facilitates its creation by means of their virtue.

 

Can anyone confirm that part? that "the highly evolved soul returning - they have a spiritual fetus develop early and mature fully during their lifetime - without the formulaic approach"?

[Practitioner]

I'd just like to comment that I do appreciate and like this particular discussion.

 

However, I'd like to mention that perhaps alchemical practice that develops a foetus, or something like mo pai which does something a bit similar at the dantian, is something which not necessarily does not make your spirit immortal, but changes it's properties of consciousness, particularly that which happens after death. Also, there is the Buddhist parallel of how enlightenment and development of the different supernatural bodies changes the ability of one's spirit to perceive the reality around it.

 

In mopai lore (once again, we don't tire of it), I must remark that spirits are perhaps obviously are already immortal to a certain extent - it is just that they are bound to certain realities and are destined to live out the capacity of their spiritual lives by repeating an illusion. As stated before, spirits who have good karma live out a rather enjoyable illusion for their own benefit. Spirits who have negative karma suffer through a very negative kind of the same illusion. Perhaps it is the same way in the Buddhist regard in that when a person of sufficiently developed clarity dies, he is not subject to the illusions that normal spirits would be, and has the freedom to do what he wants, travel to whatever realms his heart desires, shift through the planes of reality and not have to willessly endure another cycle of reincarnation.

 

If the postulation of Mr. Chang proves correct, then yes, when we die, we are already immortal, but are slave to the whim of karma, hence going through bliss or pain after death, but eventually reborn. Hence why one works to break it in both that particular Taoist school, and also in Buddhist parallels through the development of enlightenment and the various bodies - so that our Immortal spirit is not subject to karma and the punishment and or bliss in the afterlife, but has something much higher - the ability to see through this illusion completely and to see and interact with a reality much deeper and comprehensive than the standard one, and the ability to ground itself in this reality so that it does not need a phase change ala reincarnation as a permanent part of its life cycle.

 

Thus I believe the question is not rather, "Is our spirit immortal?", but rather, "Is our consciousness developed enough to empower us in the afterlife, to give us more choices, and allow us to see more into the strata and substrata of the different spiritual realms"?

 

Just a thought I believe worth pondering on.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Practitioner

[Birch]

If there's no distinct I, what goes anywhere? I (sic) was under the impression that everything just goes onwards as part of reality. The idea that a person could acheive a coherent whatever it is that could be transmitted intentionally 'into the next life' seems to me to be a huge skill.

[Cheshire Cat]

I've not done the "immortal practices" - starting with lesser Kan & Li - which includes the "self intercourse" - where you combine your own male and female energies to conceive and give birth to yourself. I certainly know plenty of people who have done this, its not something I've heard a lot of chatter about, I've talked in depth about it with a couple of the senior instructors who told me some of the personal experiences, so I have no doubts about the reality of it.

 

Please, can you speak about those experiences in general terms? Physical changes, visions, psychic phenomena, etc..?

[Practitioner]

I guess it basically boils down to what the Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland:

 

 

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?" said Alice

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.

"I don’t much care where--" said Alice.

"Then it doesn’t matter which way you go," said the Cat.

[Alchemistgeorge]

Please, can you speak about those experiences in general terms? Physical changes, visions, psychic phenomena, etc..?

sorry, no. Its been twenty years.

 

I've never heard about physical changes, certainly never seen any. I'm very leery of anything about visions or psychic phenomena - most of those experiences I've had have fall into the category of 'entertaining, but without meaning.' I find that sort of stuff is usually a distraction from the path.

 

Why don't you google Michael Winn's forum and ask folks there who have done the practices?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Alchemistgeorge

[三江源]

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Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Alchemistgeorge]

It would be most kind if you would share some of what you have gleaned from the sharings by senior instructors.

 

obviously no names need be mentioned.

 

not to be snippy, but what I learned from talking to my seniors was not very surprising. Practice hard and practice regularly. Master the foundation practices first. Don't get caught up in psychic phenomena or the excitement of unusual experiences, just do the practices. Don't mess around with other beings/entities/forces.

 

People really like doing the practices, they take a lot of focus. And they take a lot of energy. You have to have a strong practice coming in. When you go to a class with Mantak Chia he will give you energy to help 'jump start' but unless you practice really hard that jump start energy dissipates in days.

 

At first its just another meditation, over time it gets deeper and more real. However you will have lots of experiences that are just 'noise' - stuff created by your mind that isn't real, or the result of releasing garbage - it is not usual for people to misinterpret those as being highly significant - "I hear voices" - and then you feel like a total ass when you realize you left too much energy in a higher center and those voices were just some kind of minor overload - like hearing cross-talk on a phone line. People get very hung up about the OOBE stuff - for example lesser Kan & Li is where people usually start having out of the body experiences - one fellow told me that at first the experiences were involuntary - at the beginning he thought they were dreams - and it took him a long time to get voluntary control.

[三江源]

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Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Alchemistgeorge]

still not sure what you are looking for.

 

what I've said above are (AFAIK) the most salient guidelines for practice. That is the information that I think is useful. Most of the rest is entertaining or gossip, or (as far as I can tell) only of real use to people who are doing the practices.

 

Have you read all the material on the immortal practices on Mantak Chia's website? There is a lot there. There is a lot on Michael Winn's site too.

 

If you want to learn the practices, Mantak Chia has written a book on lesser Kan & Li, or you can buy the retreat tapes (CDs), or Michael Winn has a set. The lesser kan & li book is really skinny but has a lot of information.

 

I know most of the elements of the practices, but I am not the one to teach them.

 

If you don't have a strong Fusion practice then I would guess you will find it really hard (and imho unwise) to learn the higher practices.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Horus]

I'd just like to comment that I do appreciate and like this particular discussion.

 

However, I'd like to mention that perhaps alchemical practice that develops a foetus, or something like mo pai which does something a bit similar at the dantian, is something which not necessarily does not make your spirit immortal, but changes it's properties of consciousness, particularly that which happens after death. Also, there is the Buddhist parallel of how enlightenment and development of the different supernatural bodies changes the ability of one's spirit to perceive the reality around it.

 

In mopai lore (once again, we don't tire of it), I must remark that spirits are perhaps obviously are already immortal to a certain extent - it is just that they are bound to certain realities and are destined to live out the capacity of their spiritual lives by repeating an illusion. As stated before, spirits who have good karma live out a rather enjoyable illusion for their own benefit. Spirits who have negative karma suffer through a very negative kind of the same illusion. Perhaps it is the same way in the Buddhist regard in that when a person of sufficiently developed clarity dies, he is not subject to the illusions that normal spirits would be, and has the freedom to do what he wants, travel to whatever realms his heart desires, shift through the planes of reality and not have to willessly endure another cycle of reincarnation.

 

If the postulation of Mr. Chang proves correct, then yes, when we die, we are already immortal, but are slave to the whim of karma, hence going through bliss or pain after death, but eventually reborn. Hence why one works to break it in both that particular Taoist school, and also in Buddhist parallels through the development of enlightenment and the various bodies - so that our Immortal spirit is not subject to karma and the punishment and or bliss in the afterlife, but has something much higher - the ability to see through this illusion completely and to see and interact with a reality much deeper and comprehensive than the standard one, and the ability to ground itself in this reality so that it does not need a phase change ala reincarnation as a permanent part of its life cycle.

 

Thus I believe the question is not rather, "Is our spirit immortal?", but rather, "Is our consciousness developed enough to empower us in the afterlife, to give us more choices, and allow us to see more into the strata and substrata of the different spiritual realms"?

 

Just a thought I believe worth pondering on.

 

Thanks pathless wanderer!

 

I'd love to know if that development (of the spiritual bodies) is something that would happen anyway if a highly evolved master were to incarnate and not do the formulaic processes - ie the vast amount of light and virtue that the hold would "fill" the system with light and thus develop the spiritual bodies anyway?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Horus

[Horus]

It would be most kind if you would share some of what you have gleaned from the sharings by senior instructors.

 

obviously no names need be mentioned.

 

agreed, please share?

[Alchemistgeorge]

gee, guys, would you ask specific questions? I get the feeling that not everyone is reading the responses I've posted already.

 

I've talked to people about this stuff from 1987 until about 1994, covered a lot of ground, and learned a lot since then. I'm not going to just type all that up.

 

And I'm not particularly up for sharing gossip.

 

And how many of you have read Mantak Chia's website & Michael Winn's website on this topic?

Edited December 20, 2012 by Alchemistgeorge

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Jox]

...

Edited February 2, 2013 by Jox

[Horus]

I have been practicing Fusion for few years now. The experience has become more and more deep and soft.

The process is going on almost by itself. I really feel cleaned out and centered and so my life too.

 

In the beginning I had problems, I felt tiredness and also a lot of pain in my body after fusion meditations.

But latter on all this disappeared...

 

 

In my opinion this stage is the most important part to going trough. It is like tuning musical instrument.

With tuned instrument you can play whatever you like...

 

...

 

Thanks Jox, what is your experience with regards to the spiritual embryo development and the extended development after the fusion practice?

[Horus]

gee, guys, would you ask specific questions? I get the feeling that not everyone is reading the responses I've posted already.

 

I've talked to people about this stuff from 1987 until about 1994, covered a lot of ground, and learned a lot since then. I'm not going to just type all that up.

 

And I'm not particularly up for sharing gossip.

 

And how many of you have read Mantak Chia's website & Michael Winn's website on this topic?

 

OK, AlchemistGeorge - keep it specific - i agree.

 

I'm specifically wanting to make myself comfortable with the concept of the spiritual fetus, how it feels - what happens if you stop the practice, what is the resultant living experience like when you have birthed the fetus and it is maturing?

 

I've read some of the texts, there are many and they are long - but i'm loving them all so far. I'm a people person and want individualised comments from people.

 

I love mantaks' work, and love the way winn westernises them - but for me, sometimes the experiences of indivuals can take me to subtle insights that pull it all together.