Stages of Progression/Enlightenment

[Jeff]

this isnt the exact thread i was talking about, but i think it is the same thing.

I sorta know where you are coming from with this. personally i think im on stage 8.

 

i would consider stage 9/10 awakening or enlightenment....

 

also i think it is important to note that somewhere around stage 7 or 8 the person doesnt really fear death, its like the body is there but they feel beyond the human form. or atleast they dont feel like they would disapear if there body died. it i cant explain the experience as much, but it is like a different form of immortal. i believe the doaists call this the earth immortal because if they die they dont go anywhere and just stay on earth, i believe this knowledge is felt at this stage.

 

 

would you say the stages become more difficult or time consuming as one goes up? kind of like a video game?

 

also how would you compare these stages to a Taoist Celestial Immortal?

 

Another note: this guy B Mouravieff has a 7 stage system based on eastern christianity, and at the 7th the person can no longer hold a human form if they wish to keep progressing. in his system levels 1-3 are the normal human, having no magnitism and just floating in any direction either by mental, emotional, or mental. at level 4 they get magnitism and choose a direction. level 5 is enlightenment. level 6-7 are extra credit

 

Hi MooNiNite,

 

This progression and the relative "levels" is now a little old and I would probably update components if I was to do it again.

 

Regarding your comments/questions... I would agree that with you that level 9 would be the classic definition of "enlightenment", though many would define it as level 7, because at that level one experiences the "void" or clear/quiet mind. This is the "end" of suffering. I would also agree that at level 7 one is beyond "fear of death".

 

Also, the levels are somewhat like a video game, but I would say more like "nesting dolls" of increasing clarity to "what is". Rather than each level really being harder, it is more that the ongoing issues/karma reside very deep. It is often hard to find such issues and fears without help. This is why most traditions leverage the support of gurus or divine/celestial beings.

 

Taoist "immortals" reside at various levels within reality/consciousness. To go into further discussion, I would have to expand (and refine) the definitions of levels 10-12 described above. I would be happy to do so if anyone is interested in the discussion.

 

Best,

Jeff

[Jeff]

Trying to become enlightened in the midst of a psycho-logical warzone while being constantly bombareded with propaganda is like trying to relax in a physical warzone while being constantly bombarded with explosives.

 

do you have any PROOF to support such counter-intuitive and anti-logical claims??

 

What would constitute "proof" for you? Happy to go into further specifics in the chatroom some time.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Jeff]

May I ask.....

If one can predict the next stage of enlightenment, is that an enlightenment.....???

 

Fair enough. One can only describe experiences... One cannot claim enlightenment...

 

Best wishes...

[IntuitiveWanderer]

The Subjugation of a Ghost

 

A young wife fell sick and was about to die. "I love you so much," she told her husband, "I do not want to leave you. Do not go from me to any other woman. If you do, I will return as a ghost and cause you endless trouble."

Soon the wife passed away. The husband respected her last wish for the first three months, but then he met another woman and fell in love with her. They became engaged to be married.

Immediately after the engagement a ghost appeared every night to the man, blaming him for not keeping his promise. The ghost was clever too. She told him exactly what had transpired between himself and his new sweetheart. Whenever he gave his fiancee a present, the ghost would describe it in detail. She would even repeat conversations, and it so annoyed the amn that he could not sleep.

Someone advised him to take his problem to a Zen master who lived close to the village. At length, in despair, the poor man went to him for help.

"Your former wife became a ghost and knows everything you do, " commented the master. "Whatever you do or say, whatever you give your beloved, she knows. She must be a very wise ghost. Really you should admire such a ghost. The next time she appears, bargain with her. Tell her that she knows so much you can hide nothing from her, and that if she will answer you one question, you promise to break your engagement and remain single."

"What is the question I must ask her?" inquired the man.

The master replied: "Take a large handful of soy beans and ask her exactly how many beans you hold in your hand. If she cannot tell you, you will know that she is only a figment of your imagination and will trouble you no longer."

The next night, when the ghost appeared the man flattered her and told her that she knew everything.

"Indeed," replied the ghost, "and I know you went to see that Zen master today."

"And since you know so much," demanded the man, "tell me how many beans I hold in this hand!"

There was no longer any ghost to answer the question.

Edited December 15, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Jeff]

Hi IntuitiveWanderer,

 

So no immortals, buddhas or divine beings for you? Just the "void" of your own local body-mind?

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

(edit - spelling)

Edited December 15, 2014 by Jeff

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Hi IntuitiveWanderer,

 

So no immortals, buddhas or divine beings for you? Just the "void" of your own local body-mind?

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

(edit - spelling)

 

Void is a sound or a light pattern or a word or an energy pattern or something. Is void a chinese or japanese word because I forgot...

 

PS,

Sorry about being so full of bull***, it is already a deeply engrained habbit... The truth may be that in fact I don't know how to asnwer.

 

WHAT THE HELL IS IT ANYWAY? I don't know, I gave up a long time ago...now I am reading the autobiography of Danny de Vito...

 

(Wow, I am so Zen...it erects my self esteem so much when I act soo cool. I need this. I like it, it's something that fits to me, and my personality. I always like these kinds of things that make me feel good about myself and forget about the things in my life that I don't like, enlightenments is good for me, it is exactly what I want and what I need.)

Edited December 15, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[IntuitiveWanderer]

"I am not a machine, I am an angel." < This is delusion

 

"I am a system that runs by itself. I cannot control the unending variables that constitute existence. What I imagine I is actually just ideas. To say that I am a machine is closer to the truth than to say that I am God, since we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord." < this may be so, although It certainly isn't.

 

"There is no world peace and we live in a ideological world dictatorship run by intelligent people whose ancestors were quicker than our own. There was and continues to be massive suffering and bloodshed, caused by a machine which we feed through our energy expenditure, while mindlessly repeating an absurd pattern; our children will continue this pattern, and so will their children untill they will no longer be needed at which point only the pre-daters will remain.

The great predaters of our civilisation are powerful and strong because they live morally, while the masses are weak slaves because they live immorally. This is unavoidable. It is also meaningless."

 

Enlightenment means to realize that you have no free will,no soul, you are nothing, just an effect. And to realize that you will cease to exist as a pattern, but existence will continue forever, meaninglessly, just so.

 

Nothing matters never will,

whatever you say ammounts to nil.

Edited December 15, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Jeff]

Hi IntuitiveWanderer,

 

If it is "void" in an Zen sense, then there are no "arisings" and hence no lights or sounds.

 

If you don't like my earlier descriptions, here is one that includes the 10 Bhumi's of classical Buddhist/Zen thought.

 

Here we go...

 

1 Normal State – Wandering mind. Some will often have 3-6 (or more) threads/dialogs of thought jumping around. Nothing is usually noticed regarding “energy”. Sometimes sense of hot/cold.

2 Temporary One Thread – In meditation, one quiets to one focused thread (as in mantra or concentration). At this state, one may begin to notice energy (if looking for it) and it often begin to feel like tingles or vibrations in the body.

3 Temporary quiet mind – One can begin to see/trace thoughts. Can feel the “movement” of energy and notice chakras.

4 Stable quiet meditation – One can perceive the nature/energy of mind. Can perceive astral experiences. Begin to notice “obstructions” in the flow of energy. Feel/see chakras in energy body. With practice, can begin to see auras.

5 Expansion of quiet mind to normal life – One begins to “see themselves” doing things. An example is seeing yourself getting angry, but can’t stop yourself. Significant control over energy flows. Become more resistant to sickness.

6 Quiet mind in life – Usually only one thread going, sometimes no threads. Can see and stop yourself from getting angry. All chakras open. The chakras start to “merge”. Less distinct chakra feeling. Can consciously perceive energy in others and surroundings.

7 Calm mind – No real thoughts unless there is something to do/decide. Meditation and life are the same. Body/mind energy field integrates and collapses. No meaningful energy feeling. Often described as nothingness or perceiving "consciousness/awareness". Many stop here and declare victory.

8 Noticing Oneness – Something “tickles” the calm mind. Curiosity returns. Begin to break beyond the local body-mind. Begin to perceive “light” (spiritual/cosmic/existence) energy. Energy body feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony. Level of "soul", in Christian/Islamic terms. Also, called the first bhumi 1. Great Joy: It is said that being close to enlightenment and seeing the benefit for all sentient beings, one achieves great joy, hence the name. In this bhūmi the bodhisattvas practice all perfections (pāramitās), but especially emphasizing generosity (dāna).

9 (2. Stainless): In accomplishing the second bhūmi, the bodhisattva is free from the stains of immorality, therefore, this bhūmi is named "stainless". The emphasized perfection is moral discipline (śīla).

10 (3. Luminous): The third bhūmi is named "luminous", because, for a bodhisattva who accomplishes this bhūmi, the light of Dharma is said to radiate for others from the bodhisattva. The emphasized perfection is patience (kṣānti).

11 (4. Radiant): This bhūmi is called "radiant", because it is said to be like a radiating light that fully burns that which opposes enlightenment. The emphasized perfection is vigor (vīrya).

12 (5. Very difficult to train): Bodhisattvas who attain this bhūmi strive to help sentient beings attain maturity, and do not become emotionally involved when such beings respond negatively, both of which are difficult to do. The emphasized perfection is meditative concentration (dhyāna).

13 (6. Obviously Transcendent): By depending on the perfection of wisdom, [the bodhisattva] does not abide in either saṃsāra or nirvāṇa, so this state is "obviously transcendent". The emphasized perfection is wisdom (prajñā).

14 (7. Gone afar): Particular emphasis is on the perfection of skillful means (upāya), to help others.

15 (8. Immovable): The emphasized virtue is aspiration. This, the "immovable" bhūmi, is the bhūmi at which one becomes able to choose his place of rebirth.

16 (9. Good Discriminating Wisdom): The emphasized virtue is power.

17 (10. Cloud of Dharma): The emphasized virtue is the practice of primordial wisdom.

18 Buddhahood.

 

 

Best wishes.

[bax44]

"I am not a machine, I am an angel." < This is delusion

 

"I am a system that runs by itself. I cannot control the unending variables that constitute existence. What I imagine I is actually just ideas. To say that I am a machine is closer to the truth than to say that I am God, since we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord." < this may be so, although It certainly isn't.

 

"There is no world peace and we live in a ideological world dictatorship run by intelligent people whose ancestors were quicker than our own. There was and continues to be massive suffering and bloodshed, caused by a machine which we feed through our energy expenditure, while mindlessly repeating an absurd pattern; our children will continue this pattern, and so will their children untill they will no longer be needed at which point only the pre-daters will remain.

The great predaters of our civilisation are powerful and strong because they live morally, while the masses are weak slaves because they live immorally. This is unavoidable. It is also meaningless."

 

Enlightenment means to realize that you have no free will,no soul, you are nothing, just an effect. And to realize that you will cease to exist as a pattern, but existence will continue forever, meaninglessly, just so.

 

Nothing matters never will,

whatever you say ammounts to nil.

 

Tell me more. especially about the pre-daters.

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Tell me more. especially about the pre-daters.

 

That was just a joke, man....lol

 

You know...if you are really silent, you can hear them sometimes in your brain...it's like, somewhere near the pineal gland if it aint too frosty from the milk..you know..

Ask mista Jones, he know all about this thangs ... he do...

Edited December 15, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[bax44]

That was just a joke, man....lol

 

You know...if you are really silent, you can hear them sometimes in your brain...it's like, somewhere near the pineal gland if it aint too frosty from the milk..you know..

Ask mista Jones, he know all about this thangs ... he do...

dammit haha. i dont drink milk no more. but i fear the colgate is frosting my pineal just the same

[MooNiNite]

Hi MooNiNite,

 

This progression and the relative "levels" is now a little old and I would probably update components if I was to do it again.

 

Regarding your comments/questions... I would agree that with you that level 9 would be the classic definition of "enlightenment", though many would define it as level 7, because at that level one experiences the "void" or clear/quiet mind. This is the "end" of suffering. I would also agree that at level 7 one is beyond "fear of death".

 

I find level 7/8 interesting, the person has a quiet and clear mind and they are aware of themselves. it is an emptyness without light, just an emptiness. This would mean that their life is sort of like a prison. they are consciously existing within the limitations of their reality. it is almost like a purgatory or some type of waiting room, no negative associated though, just emptyness and waiting. At this stage do you believe the person would need to cultivate more awareness? or possibly do you believe good merit or deeds or maybe following ones heart is the next route. It just seems to me like this 7/8 stage is almost like a person sitting at an airport waiting to get on the plane. but not really sure what to do.

 

personally i think it is absurd someone at level 7/8 would claim enlightenment.

Edited December 16, 2014 by MooNiNite

[IntuitiveWanderer]

Hi IntuitiveWanderer,

 

If it is "void" in an Zen sense, then there are no "arisings" and hence no lights or sounds.

 

If you don't like my earlier descriptions, here is one that includes the 10 Bhumi's of classical Buddhist/Zen thought.

 

Here we go...

 

1 Normal State – Wandering mind. Some will often have 3-6 (or more) threads/dialogs of thought jumping around. Nothing is usually noticed regarding “energy”. Sometimes sense of hot/cold.

 

2 Temporary One Thread – In meditation, one quiets to one focused thread (as in mantra or concentration). At this state, one may begin to notice energy (if looking for it) and it often begin to feel like tingles or vibrations in the body.

 

3 Temporary quiet mind – One can begin to see/trace thoughts. Can feel the “movement” of energy and notice chakras.

 

4 Stable quiet meditation – One can perceive the nature/energy of mind. Can perceive astral experiences. Begin to notice “obstructions” in the flow of energy. Feel/see chakras in energy body. With practice, can begin to see auras.

 

5 Expansion of quiet mind to normal life – One begins to “see themselves” doing things. An example is seeing yourself getting angry, but can’t stop yourself. Significant control over energy flows. Become more resistant to sickness.

 

6 Quiet mind in life – Usually only one thread going, sometimes no threads. Can see and stop yourself from getting angry. All chakras open. The chakras start to “merge”. Less distinct chakra feeling. Can consciously perceive energy in others and surroundings.

 

7 Calm mind – No real thoughts unless there is something to do/decide. Meditation and life are the same. Body/mind energy field integrates and collapses. No meaningful energy feeling. Often described as nothingness or perceiving "consciousness/awareness". Many stop here and declare victory.

 

8 Noticing Oneness – Something “tickles” the calm mind. Curiosity returns. Begin to break beyond the local body-mind. Begin to perceive “light” (spiritual/cosmic/existence) energy. Energy body feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony. Level of "soul", in Christian/Islamic terms. Also, called the first bhumi 1. Great Joy: It is said that being close to enlightenment and seeing the benefit for all sentient beings, one achieves great joy, hence the name. In this bhūmi the bodhisattvas practice all perfections (pāramitās), but especially emphasizing generosity (dāna).

 

9 (2. Stainless): In accomplishing the second bhūmi, the bodhisattva is free from the stains of immorality, therefore, this bhūmi is named "stainless". The emphasized perfection is moral discipline (śīla).

 

10 (3. Luminous): The third bhūmi is named "luminous", because, for a bodhisattva who accomplishes this bhūmi, the light of Dharma is said to radiate for others from the bodhisattva. The emphasized perfection is patience (kṣānti).

 

11 (4. Radiant): This bhūmi is called "radiant", because it is said to be like a radiating light that fully burns that which opposes enlightenment. The emphasized perfection is vigor (vīrya).

 

12 (5. Very difficult to train): Bodhisattvas who attain this bhūmi strive to help sentient beings attain maturity, and do not become emotionally involved when such beings respond negatively, both of which are difficult to do. The emphasized perfection is meditative concentration (dhyāna).

 

13 (6. Obviously Transcendent): By depending on the perfection of wisdom, [the bodhisattva] does not abide in either saṃsāra or nirvāṇa, so this state is "obviously transcendent". The emphasized perfection is wisdom (prajñā).

 

14 (7. Gone afar): Particular emphasis is on the perfection of skillful means (upāya), to help others.

 

15 (8. Immovable): The emphasized virtue is aspiration. This, the "immovable" bhūmi, is the bhūmi at which one becomes able to choose his place of rebirth.

 

16 (9. Good Discriminating Wisdom): The emphasized virtue is power.

 

17 (10. Cloud of Dharma): The emphasized virtue is the practice of primordial wisdom.

 

18 Buddhahood.

 

 

Best wishes.

 

Void probably means not thought, void is not non-phenomena.

 

"The thirty spokes unite in the one nave; but it is on the empty space , that the use of the wheel depends. Clay is fashioned into vessels; but it is on their empty hollowness, that their use depends. The door and windows are cut out to form an apartment; but it is on the empty space, that its use depends. Therefore, what has existence serves for profitable adaptation, and what has not that, for usefulness." Tao te Ching, Legge translation

 

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

 

Who cares about what other people say the steps are?? If you follow the path you don't need other people telling you what you experience...

I am not enlightened, I actually suffer from social anxiety lol, but it seems to me that playing with thought patterns is not the right thing, and that the right thing would be to just go.

Here is an example: when cattle defecate, they do it without trying.

Edited December 16, 2014 by IntuitiveWanderer

[Jeff]

I find level 7/8 interesting, the person has a quiet and clear mind and they are aware of themselves. it is an emptyness without light, just an emptiness. This would mean that their life is sort of like a prison. they are consciously existing within the limitations of their reality. it is almost like a purgatory or some type of waiting room, no negative associated though, just emptyness and waiting. At this stage do you believe the person would need to cultivate more awareness? or possibly do you believe good merit or deeds or maybe following ones heart is the next route. It just seems to me like this 7/8 stage is almost like a person sitting at an airport waiting to get on the plane. but not really sure what to do.

 

personally i think it is absurd someone at level 7/8 would claim enlightenment.

 

Hi MooNiNite,

 

At that stage, the mind is now quiet and hence sort of past the point of "suffering" as there is no more mental dialogue going on. That stage is actually very common to get stuck at and the Buddha actually warns about it in the Lankavatara sutra...

 

"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realization. "

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Jeff]

Void probably means not thought, void is not non-phenomena.

 

"The thirty spokes unite in the one nave; but it is on the empty space , that the use of the wheel depends. Clay is fashioned into vessels; but it is on their empty hollowness, that their use depends. The door and windows are cut out to form an apartment; but it is on the empty space, that its use depends. Therefore, what has existence serves for profitable adaptation, and what has not that, for usefulness." Tao te Ching, Legge translation

 

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”

“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

 

Who cares about what other people say the steps are?? If you follow the path you don't need other people telling you what you experience...

I am not enlightened, I actually suffer from social anxiety lol, but it seems to me that playing with thought patterns is not the right thing, and that the right thing would be to just go.

Here is an example: when cattle defecate, they do it without trying.

 

Hi IntuitiveWanderer,

 

What you are describing as void is commonly called "calm or quiet mind" in buddhism. It fits with the above quote from the Lankavatara sutra (a Zen sutra). In Zen, there is often the concept of two-fold emptiness. The first fold is "emptiness of self" and relates to the quiet mind. The second fold is the "emptiness of ultimate reality" which is related to what I was describing.

 

Best regards,

Jeff

[Nikolai1]

Hi moonninite

 

I think stage 7/8 is also pretty interesting, and from jeffs list I would put myself in that area. I think it's a time when you realise that your demons are pretty much conquered and inner peace never seems far away. It's like there's a confidence that nothing can really knock you ever again - like you have the tools and the awareness to nip anything in the end before it grows bigger. Life is pretty enjoyable so is not surprising that many are tempted to claim victory - particular when even death isn't feared.

 

That feeling of being in a waiting room is inevitable when individual will power to achieve something is pretty much gone. In a strange sense we need to feel perfect and whole, ie enlightened, in order for our individuality to melt away. To feel like you have conquered is fine temporarily, but those with finer aspiration will realise there is more to be done...even when there is no will left to do it. When we reflect on this predicament it can be frustrating and a sense of stuck ness is inevitable.

 

Personally I think the 'stuckness' is comes from nothing other than the tendency to self reflect. As we lose interest in our self hood, and our nonchalance about death shows this is already quite advanced, we shall cease to care about where we are headed and that shall be our advancement to enlightenment. Further surrender to what is is key!