Trance and the Path

[silas]

>Trances may have uses, but jhana is surely a better goal. Don't we want to be cultivating clarity, balance and precision, rather than du-yin states where we simply don't know how much of the experience is real and how much is warped by the contents of our subconscious?

 

Meditation is a trance state. Whether someone focuses on their breathing or on the tip of their nose, they are entering a trance state. A visual metronome brings a very fast trance state. Wu-wei training teaches how to separate mind and body to function within a trance state.

[zanshin]

from http://www.hypnogenesis.com/drwier1.htm

 

Sort of a long article, but I think worth the time to read and understand for just about everyone.

 

Our Unconscious Trance States
by Denis R. Wier, Director of the Trance Institute.

Most people slip in and out of various kinds of trance states hundreds of times during what is called the "normal waking state." Gurdjieff taught that to become aware that you are asleep is the first step in waking up. If you are interested in staying awake, it is quite helpful, now and then, to count your trances, just to make sure you haven't slipped back into unconsciousness.

There are light trances, deep trances, short-term trances and life-long trances. There are pain relieving trances and pain producing trances. There are healing trances and pathological trances. I have been studying trance for the past 25 years and I want to explore with you just a few important areas where trances can be found: hypnosis, addictions, religions and work.

So what is a trance? To many psychologists a trance is a state of limited awareness. Some psychologists would also characterize trance as a form of sleep, or dreamlike awareness or a kind of altered state of consciousness. Certainly trance has long been associated with hypnotic states, and with the altered states of consciousness of dervishes, shamans and yogis. Meditation does produce strong trance states. However, in my opinion, trance states are much more common than is normally believed.

If the unusual trance state of a shaman or a yogi is desirable, then we might be tempted to believe that all trance states are desirable states.

Hypnotic Trances

The type of trance studied most has been the hypnotic trance. Milton Erickson, the great psychotherapist, had wonderful and nearly immediate psychological cures in a great many of his patients. His technique was called "Ericksonian hypnosis." Many people tried to explain what it was that he did, because in many cases, his patients claimed that they were not hypnotized and they were not in any kind of trance at all. Erickson's recorded dialogs were analyzed for years to try to find out what it was exactly that made his form of hypnotherapy so successful.

Richard Bandler, John Grinder and others were successful in finally analyzing and modelling Erickson's techniques. They devised what they called "neuro-linguistic programming," also known as NLP, which is based primarily on Erickson's techniques. With NLP it is relatively easy to hypnotize a person and to keep that person in a trance state without their being aware that they are in fact in a trance. The technique of pacing and leading a subject from a rich or varied set of thoughts to a limited or impoverished set of thoughts is a technique used consciously by hypnotists, advertisers, sales people, preachers and politicians.

Many stage hypnotists use Ericksonian or NLP derived hypnotic techniques in order to induce trance. TV hypnotists on daytime television can induce a trance after only a few minutes of seemingly innocuous talk. During this time, the subject can be given post-hypnotic suggestions to alter behavior and perception in peculiar ways during the TV show.

Television advertisers and the designers of commercials are aware of the techniques of Bandler and Grinder and use them often in commercials. The trance-induction potential of television media is well-known and is often used for manipulating consumer tastes. However useful television is for commercial and social control reasons, it cannot be reasonably argued that promoting an
impoverished reality is, in the end, really socially beneficial.

Salespersons, preachers and politicians are aware of NLP techniques and often consciously use Ericksonian techniques in order to promote their own agendas. As you talk with a salesperson or listen to a preacher or politician you might never admit that you were in a trance of any kind. Have you ever 'spaced out' listening to a preacher? Politicians? Computer software salespersons?
Some professional sales training institutes unabashedly teach hypnotic techniques to their sales trainees. It is clear to them that if a buyer is put into a hypnotic trance then it is much easier to sell a product. Because the ethics of using such techniques on the unaware is questionable, some states have laws that give you the right to cancel a contract within 24 or 48 hours of signing. Supposedly, this gives you time to "wake up" from your unconscious state.

So how can you tell if you are in one of these ordinary, unconscious trances? You are in a trance when your attention is limited and there is a certain repetition of thoughts. In an extreme case, your attention is so limited that it feels like "tunnel vision." The repetition of thoughts might be mantras, songs, repeating fantasies, or even the math calculations of balancing your checkbook. That song
you can't get out of your head indicates a trance. Concentration, when the mind is focused on a specific problem or thought, is also a form of trance. You could characterize trance cybernetically as an awareness loop, or a circular flow of consciousness.

Repetition of mantras, the whirling of dervishes, the chanting and drumming of shamans, the repetition of TV commercials all induce trance by limiting your attention and overloading your mind with repeated thoughts. The purposes may be different, the results may be different, but in my opinion the difference in trance is mainly of degree.

Once your mind is flying around in a tight loop, at some point you become used to this tight loop. You can also say that you have learned the loop. At that point, you might have the feeling that you can think ordinary thoughts even though another part of your mind is still flying around in this tight loop. The part of you that is the conscious 'you' is the observer of the 'you' that is the automaton
flying around in this endless loop. The conscious 'you' is actually in a trance even though you feel perfectly conscious. Here's why....

Normally, you have certain cognitive abilities such as the ability to remember things accurately, the ability to make judgements, you are generally aware of your body if you put your mind to it, you are alert to your surroundings, and you generally are not observing yourself doing things, you are doing them.

These cognitive abilities draw on our energies. When we learn new things, learning means that we can do it more efficiently. That means, we don't need to put all of our energy into maintaining what we have learned. At the same time, doing something by habit does take some cognitive energy, which leaves our conscious mind a bit short. Particular types of loops will absorb greater amounts of our energy, leaving our conscious minds relatively disabled.

When we let our mind go in a loop, and then allow ourselves to step away and observe, the observing part may actually not function at full capacity. That means, your memory might not work so well, you may not be able to make a judgement, you will probably be much more self-observing, you may not be aware of your body, you may not be aware of your surroundings so much because of fixed attention. You might even hallucinate. Some psychologists call this trance logic.

What is interesting is that this dissociated or trance state is often combined with rewards. That is, we are generally encouraged to go into trance even though this state results in a somewhat disabled mental condition.

Whether you are passively watching TV football, or engaging in rational rigorously precise thoughts, or having an emotional jolt of religious fervor, or feeling patriotic passion, or if you are an addict of any kind, or if you have the compulsive mindset of a mass murderer you are in a trance. Why?
Because all these states encourage a fixed, narrow attention span and they all reward the repetition of an impoverished set of thoughts. Most of the above are pathological trances, that is, over the long term they will produce pathologies.

It is well-known that when you are in a trance your attention can be diverted effectively enough to produce anesthesia sufficient for dental work or some types of surgery. Lamaze natural childbirth breathing techniques uses the resulting narrowed span of attention to help reduce pain. This narrowing of attention, the concentration of the mind on maintaining the breathing patterns, diverts the attention from the physical pain sensations during childbirth with the result that the mother becomes less aware of any uncomfortable sensations. The power of a mind in a trance can do things which it ordinarily cannot do. Giving birth painlessly is only one example.

Trance can also be used to reduce psychological pain such as anxiety, fear, worry, as well as the universal Weltschmerz. Instead of consciously addressing the causes of the pain, trance can successfully divert the attention so that one is aware of neither the pain nor the causes of pain.

Hypnotic trance is only one way to remove pain. Alcohol, drug, religion, work, consumption, and TV trance addictions can also be counted as other ways of removing pain. I believe addictions of all sorts are forms of pathological trance.

Pathological Trance States and Addictions

Addiction can be better understood if we think of it not merely as "substance abuse," or performance addiction, but as a form of an impoverished reality that is maintained by a pathological trance. Limited awareness, tunnel vision, the special characteristic that identifies a dysfunctional, impoverished reality, also identifies a type of pathological trance state that may be also a characteristic of all addictions.

If you really want to get into a pathological trance and stay there, here's a general recipe.
First, you must impoverish your reality by removing all distractions and limit your awareness to a single, or at most a very few objects of attention. This narrowing of attention can be helped along by the passions inspired by drugs, trauma, by joining some religious or political movements or by staying at home
and watching a lot of television or computer screen. It would be a good idea to get rid of distractions like kids, magazines or books -- especially books that give you options or make you think about other possibilities.
Second, you must convince yourself that all options -- other than your chosen
perfect ideal, of course -- are "evil" and every attempt that your monkey mind makes to have variety must be crushed and that you must keep your mind "pure" and only allow thoughts about your chosen passion. This mental trick will serve to concentrate your attention firmly on the object.

Controlling Your Addictive Trances

Start at any place in your addictive trance. Addictive trances reward an impoverished thought-set. You can help reduce any addiction by rewarding the enrichment of your thoughts. This means to expand the variety of your thoughts without trying to remove the thoughts you think are the problem.
Continue expanding and enriching your thoughts with new and stimulating ideas, people and experiences. When the variety of your thoughts becomes robust, ideas will be self-generating and the addictive trance will naturally cease to exist by definition.

While pathological trances are not at all desirable, most people nearly all of the time are either in a pathological trance or are engaged in trying to get others into trance. It is precisely pathological trance, not the yogic trance, that permeates most of our waking reality. It seems to me that once we can identify these pathological trances on a personal level we can take steps to avoid them.

If trance is defined as fixated thinking, then nearly all human activities create some type of trance. The bounded circles of thinking that keep us in trances are countless. The entire "ordered universe" is a trance. But there is an escapists pleasure in remaining in trance and a deep human fear of the chaos which can result if there were no trance "order" to life.

Socialization itself is the process of putting a person into a long-term trance. You do not go to work naked because of socialization. The socialization process started by parents and continued by religious training, schools, universities and employment in different ways all create a multiplicity of long-term trance-states, the result of which puts you in a bounded circle of limited but socially acceptable activity. Without these long-term trances your life would be more chaotic and perhaps you would be more painfully aware of too many choices. Every choice we make limits our options and makes life seem more manageable. When we stick to our choices at all costs we are in a pathological trance.

Perhaps the most important aspect of pathological trance is that it creates an unawareness or a "sleeping state". When your thoughts are limited in variety and your attention becomes fixed, the fixation alters perceptions, can create dream states, visions and hallucinations. In this sleeping state you are unaware of new information. Entranced by the street magician, you are unaware that the
pickpocket has removed your wallet. The pathological trance state can create illusions which do not exist and cause the failure to perceive what does exist. On the other hand, the trance state of a yogi can be a tool to illuminate what is not normally perceived.

Religious Trance

There are religious healers who, by means of their special meditative trances, can perform healings in others. Such healers may certainly be envied for these powers. Yet, unfortunately, even meditative trance states can become pathological trances if they become an end in themselves. By knowing how
to identify pathological trances it may be possible to avoid them.

Like any other trance, religious states of ecstasy can be created by narrowing ones perception to the religious object. Second, every attraction that would draw you away from the adored and worshiped object must be seen as an impediment in some sense. Third, all rational and ordinary thought can stop. When this is accomplished, the only content left in the mind are the artifacts of the religious
object, and this, and the resulting perceptions, is what the supplicant may appreciate as "religious ecstasy." So long as the ecstasy does not become an end in itself these trance states may be very valuable.

Proselytizing religions often use methods that will induce trance. Peer pressure, confessional types of testimonials, sense deprivation, lack of contradicting testimony, hysteria, hyper-emotionalism all contribute to constrain awareness and to increase suggestibility. Suggestibility continued over time will give rise to hallucinatory trance states. When combined with the rewards of stress release, the trances become pathological and addictive.

Religious fervor, as a state which feeds upon itself without end, is also quite definitely an addiction or a pathological trance state. The concentrative force of trance can also block out any sense of compassion for humans, and can be itself the basis for unimaginable cruelties. Religious addiction often carries with it an intransigence and intolerance of different points of view that can be as dangerous as a drug addict with a loaded gun. When religious fervor is combined with the rule of law and armed with deadly force, religious addicts effectively stop the evolution of a better type of human being.

Trance in the Workplace

The person who can put long, continuous hours at a difficult job may only be capable to doing this if in a trance. The pleasures of an engaging job can produce feelings of timeless states. Repetitive jobs narrow the attention to only the work at hand. Part of the mind is engaged in the job, but another part of the mind is free to dream. The dream-state produced is exactly characteristic of trance. In
this dream-state, the work is being performed, but the worker is not necessarily aware of working. He may be visualizing a beach, having sexual or power fantasies or other hypnoidal and hypnotic dreams. The worker seems awake, but is really in a trance of reduced awareness.

Work addicts are almost revered for their devotion to the duty to work. Calvin and Zwingli have convinced entire societies that the person who works and makes money is closer to God and has most assuredly has an eternal lease in one of heaven's plushier communities. Employers love work addicts because of this devotion which so enhances profit. Work addictions are not limited to any
one particular industry. As a professional computer consultant, I have seen how some employers shamelessly exploit willing computer programmers who are addicted to computers.

Trance in the work place makes it easier to control information and employees. If an employee only does the job and knows neither what others are doing nor how they do it, that employee will never become a threat to the owners of the business. One presumes - falsely - that the owners of a
business would be the only ones who would be aware of what their business is really doing. Yet, owners are themselves in trance and many times keep their attentions on the "bottom line." They, too, may not be aware of the social or environmental impacts of their business. Unfortunately, one of the disastrous side-effects of most trances is that they not only inhibit awareness but also they disable communication. One cannot communicate what one is not aware of.

The most serious social side effect of pathological trance is the reduced awareness and disabled communication. Communication of information is critical for any system to function. Human systems as well as computer systems, ecological, biological, political and social systems and more all require
clear, accurate, timely communication of information in order to function. The lack of clear, accurate, or timely communication between individuals is the basis for misunderstandings, disappointments, hurt feelings, resentment, and violence. The human, economic, agricultural, industrial and social systems that rely on people who are in pathological trance has disastrous consequences.

Pathological trance is unfortunately almost universally encouraged within business organizations. The more an employee can with single-minded determination execute the orders and policies of his organization, the more that employee is rewarded, promoted and respected. Single-mindedness, however, is a pathological trance. And trance always implies that there are areas where the employee is "asleep", unaware.

When organizations encourage trance in their employees, and since trance disables communication, then there can be no wonder why there are so many system dysfunctions in the world.

When, unlike a yogi, we do not choose our trances, and we are unaware of the types and nature of the pathological trances in our lives, then there are things we are unaware of. What we are unaware of causes more human suffering than the sometimes painful knowledge of the truth. One goal of a robust and magical life is to be as aware as possible of our options. When our unconscious pathological trances cripple our options the result is often disaster and tragedy in our personal lives, our society and in the environment.

 

Dennis R. Wier is the Director of The Trance Institute and author of the book 'Trance: from Magic to Technology'. (HB: ISBN 1-888428-37-6 / Pb:ISBN 1-888428-38-4)
The Trance Institute, inc. Sunnehaldenstrasse 7, CH-8311 Brütten, Switzerland
Tel: (++41) 52 347 10 08 Fax: (++41) 52 347 10 09
E-mail [email protected] Web site http://www.trance.ch

Edited March 1, 2013 by zanshin

[Spotless]

I think one needs to look at firstly the idea of what trance is. Is it self stimulated by dance, drugs or deep meditation? This sort of trance comes from within and the journey there is all about what the mind can unfold about the self through images and playback. We must remeber the mind is the most powerful thing we posess, therefore here lies our great enlightener and deciever all in one. A very dangerous path we can tread.

 

The other trance is the one of spirit posession. This requires the posesser to have taken no drugs, done no meditation or to have danced around with rythmic drums etc. This way is more difficult because it is the inviting of a spirit to posess the body and the medium needs to be up to the task. Once posessed, in this way the medium does not know anything about what is happening, they have so to speak gone into a deep sleep, while their body is overtaken.

 

Most people have access to the first way, the second is much harder and more frightening.

 

Which is best IMO? the second, it is very reliable, for the source is not ones own deluded and muddled mind!!!

 

Their is quite a bit of mis-information in this post and I wanted to address it.

I want to address it because it is common.

 

The first is "We must remember the mind is the most powerful thing we posess". This is simply so far off the mark - lets just say - the mind in not the observer of the mind.

 

The second item is:

"I think one needs to look at firstly the idea of what trance is. Is it self stimulated by dance, drugs or deep meditation? This sort of trance comes from within and the journey there is all about what the mind can unfold about the self through images and playback."

 

Trance has nothing to do with what the "mind can unfold". Trance is a sort of stilling of the mind and a residence within the transmedium channels but without necessarily allowing a being into them.

It can also be other things such as psychic awareness but it is specifically not "what the mind can unfold". During meditation we can find ourselves in a trance state - this can be a time where we watch as pictures from deep within are released as the cosmic energy begins unleashing knots within our channels and space. It can be the beginning of being aware while letting pictures float by unattached. It would be preferrable to not be in trance for the most part during meditation, but this trance state has its place is seeing. It can also be difficult to dissasociate from certain pictures without trance because the mind will identify and make still observation impossible.

 

The third item is:

 

"The other trance is the one of spirit posession. This requires the posesser to have taken no drugs, done no meditation or to have danced around with rythmic drums etc. This way is more difficult because it is the inviting of a spirit to posess the body and the medium needs to be up to the task. Once posessed, in this way the medium does not know anything about what is happening, they have so to speak gone into a deep sleep, while their body is overtaken.

 

Most people have access to the first way, the second is much harder and more frightening.

 

Which is best IMO? the second, it is very reliable, for the source is not ones own deluded and muddled mind!!!"

 

Everything said in this is completely incorrect - almost perfectly the opposite.

I will go from the bottom up:

 

1. "Which is best IMO? the second, it is very reliable, for the source is not ones own deluded and muddled mind!!!"

Full on possession is not at all reliable - it can be reliable but very frequently it is a being that appears to be High and Lofty and it is actually just pugging into your akashic records and playing to the crowd. Frequently possesion is also the beginning of the end for the medium.

 

2. ""The other trance is the one of spirit posession. This requires the posesser to have taken no drugs, done no meditation or to have danced around with rythmic drums etc."

 

Actually many famous mediums will drink coffee, eat chocolate, snort cocaine, eat sugar, take drugs, dance, meditate and drum prior to possession because it requires increasing ones vibration considerably (above 35,000 cycles). Most mediums have very little idea just exactly what they are doing but the beings that have begun to take over their space know exactly what they need the body to do and they need easy access - ie: sugar up! If the medium is truely in control of the process, they can be very aware of the exchange and meditation before and after is extremely important.

 

 

3. "Once posessed, in this way the medium does not know anything about what is happening, they have so to speak gone into a deep sleep, while their body is overtaken."

 

A medium that is "up to the task" should be wide awake during the possession - outside of their body and fully conscious - perhaps somewhat super conscious by comparison to most states. I am speaking from experience and not reading books or studying others or dabbling in this. It is not difficult - but I would say very few are "up to the task". I have personally known at least 12 mediums and 70% of them went off the deep-end. Of the remaining 30% only one truly understood what was taking place. (Their books sell, and they sell tickets - and they go nuts or die or commit suicide often. Poor health is also common)

Edited March 2, 2013 by Spotless

[RongzomFan]

what new agers call trance, I call clear light of sleep. Others would call it sleep paralysis.

Edited March 2, 2013 by alwayson

[Spotless]

 

 

Meditation is a trance state. Whether someone focuses on their breathing or on the tip of their nose, they are entering a trance state. A visual metronome brings a very fast trance state. Wu-wei training teaches how to separate mind and body to function within a trance state.

Meditation is not a trance state.

It is easy to move into a trance state when meditating, watching TV and a whole host of other activities but the above statement that "meditation is a trance state" is a testimonial to a wide swath of misunderstanding regarding meditation and the various types of closed eyes exercises.

 

If you are doing "correct meditation" you are definitely not going into trance,in fact you are exercising for perhaps the first time in your life, the practicing of an awake and aware non-trance state within which you practice the cessation of mind activity and/or identification without going into a trance.

 

Silas made an excellent post on this mis-conception just a few pages back in complete contradition to his quote posted at the head of this posting of mine. His prior posting was on the 18 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

Edited March 2, 2013 by Spotless

[Seeker of Wisdom]

A trance is a state where normal mental functions stop by dropping into a zoned out state.

 

In meditation we cultivate greater mental relaxation, stability and vividness by combining concentration on one thing with an effortless release of distractions and hindrances. This also leads to cessation of thought, but there is a great difference as, for one thing, our deeper prajna functions are unveiled. And jhana is a whole other level!

 

 

Read The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace, and see the difference between meditation and trance/laxity.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Seeker of the Self

[silas]

>>Meditation is not a trance state.

 

From the Wikip entry on Hypnotism ("Braid" refers to James Braid, an early practitioner of hypnotism):

Precursors

 

According to his writings, Braid began to hear reports concerning various Oriental meditative practices soon after the release of his first publication on hypnotism, Neurypnology (1843). He first discussed some of these oriental practices in a series of articles entitled Magic, Mesmerism, Hypnotism, etc., Historically & Physiologically Considered. He drew analogies between his own practice of hypnotism and various forms of Hindu yoga meditation and other ancient spiritual practices, especially those involving voluntary burial and apparent human hibernation. Braid’s interest in these practices stems from his studies of the Dabistān-i Mazāhib, the “School of Religions”, an ancient Persian text describing a wide variety of Oriental religious rituals, beliefs, and practices.

Last May [1843], a gentleman residing in Edinburgh, personally unknown to me, who had long resided in India, favored me with a letter expressing his approbation of the views which I had published on the nature and causes of hypnotic and mesmeric phenomena. In corroboration of my views, he referred to what he had previously witnessed in oriental regions, and recommended me to look into the “Dabistan,” a book lately published, for additional proof to the same effect. On much recommendation I immediately sent for a copy of the “Dabistan”, in which I found many statements corroborative of the fact, that the eastern saints are all self-hypnotisers, adopting means essentially the same as those which I had recommended for similar purposes.

[22]

Although he rejected the transcendental/metaphysical interpretation given to these phenomena outright, Braid accepted that these accounts of Oriental practices supported his view that the effects of hypnotism could be produced in solitude, without the presence of any other person (as he had already proved to his own satisfaction with the experiments he had conducted in November 1841); and he saw correlations between many of the "metaphysical" Oriental practices and his own "rational" neuro-hypnotism, and totally rejected all of the fluid theories and magnetic practices of the mesmerists. As he later wrote:

In as much as patients can throw themselves into the nervous sleep, and manifest all the usual phenomena of Mesmerism, through their own unaided efforts, as I have so repeatedly proved by causing them to maintain a steady fixed gaze at any point, concentrating their whole mental energies on the idea of the object looked at; or that the same may arise by the patient looking at the point of his own finger, or as the Magi of Persia and Yogi of India have practised for the last 2,400 years, for religious purposes, throwing themselves into their ecstatic trances by each maintaining a steady fixed gaze at the tip of his own nose; it is obvious that there is no need for an exoteric influence to produce the phenomena of Mesmerism. […] The great object in all these processes is to induce a habit of abstraction or concentration of attention, in which the subject is entirely absorbed with one idea, or train of ideas, whilst he is unconscious of, or indifferently conscious to, every other object, purpose, or action.

[23]

Edited March 2, 2013 by silas

[Spotless]

Question to Silas:

 

I am confused as to your belief regarding Meditation and Trance.

 

You constructed a very good description of the non-trance nature of meditation on Dec 10th. It was excellent.

You have now quoted a hypnotist that has fully misunderstood meditation and continued to project his beliefs upon his practical ignorance of the subject.

 

When I wrote my last post I quoted a statement from your posting of two postings ago in which you state that "Meditation is trance" and I maintained that this is incorrect.

 

Your posting from Dec 10th and your posting from March 1st appear to be a polar fluctuation in your ideas on the subject. Can you clarify - perhaps without quoting other authors - how you experience this?

Edited March 2, 2013 by Spotless

[silas]

>>You constructed a very good description of the non-trance nature of meditation on Dec 10th. It was excellent.

 

Could you find me this quote and put it up?

 

Plus, if you don't like my wiki reference, there are many other references to meditation as a form of hypnosis on the web.

Edited March 2, 2013 by silas

[Spotless]

 

"A classical Taoist follows the patterns of the Tao and inborn nature, and one who keeps to such a path is said to be in s state of wu-wei, functioning without intentional effort, moving without intentional action. To a classical Taoist, wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness. Then one moves in harmony with the universe and achieves one's potential with minimal damage to the self."

 

I am not sure if this is a quote of someone else or if Silas wrote it, but this is part of the article I referred to in which Silas compiles several good examples of how meditation is NOT a trance state.

 

It was from Dec 18th in this forum.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Spotless

[silas]

>wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness

 

Yes, I did write that. I said wu-wei was a meditative state SIMILAR to a trance except for the awareness, because most trance states do not cultivate awareness. Wu-wei training does cultivate awareness inside a trance state, a trance state induced with a hypnotic metronome - which is a substitute for natural forms of metronone like a flickering candle, chanting, two devices commonly used in meditation.

[Spotless]

>>You constructed a very good description of the non-trance nature of meditation on Dec 10th. It was excellent.

 

Could you find me this quote and put it up?

 

Plus, if you don't like my wiki reference, there are many other references to meditation as a form of hypnosis on the web.

It is not a matter of like or dis-like. My dialog refers to the mistaken nature of the quotes. Also - in the quotes you have chosen to reference - you quote the authority of a non-meditator hypnotist who has "analyzed" the subject and come to erroneous conclusions that one might expect regarding such a subtle subject. It is not dissimilar to reading what the Pope "thinks" about Buddhism - there are some that consider the Pope or Popes to have a good understanding of other religions and other spiritual practices, yet there are a great many of us who are aware that this assumption is far less factual than the presumption assumes.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Spotless

[Spotless]

>wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness

 

Yes, I did write that. I said wu-wei was a meditative state SIMILAR to a trance except for the awareness, because most trance states do not cultivate awareness. Wu-wei training does cultivate awareness inside a trance state, a trance state induced with a hypnotic metronome - which is a substitute for natural forms of metronone like a flickering candle, chanting, two devices commonly used in meditation.

 

You seem to confuse your view of trance and meditation once again - it is true most trance states do not cultivate awareness, but now you are implying that Meditation is one of those trance states but it does cultivate awareness. While in your previous quote you specifically state that "Meditation is "like" a trance state "EXCEPT" (and you capitalized the word EXCEPT) that one retains awareness. Clearly stating that it is NOT a trance state but that it is only similar.

[Thunder_Gooch]

now you are implying that Meditation is one of those trance states

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you are also not in meditation.

 

You must become like a baby in the womb, there and yet not there.

 

 

Meditation is like the borderline between sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

 

“Very difficult.”

 

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long periods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to

remember how.”

 

 

 

-The Magus Of Java

[flowing hands]

Wu wei is not meditation!

[silas]

>>Wu wei is not meditation!

 

Mystical wu-wei is meditation.

[Mark Foote]

A classical Taoist follows the patterns of the Tao and inborn nature, and one who keeps to such a path is said to be in s state of wu-wei, functioning without intentional effort, moving without intentional action. To a classical Taoist, wu-wei is a persistent meditative state, similar to a trance EXCEPT that one retains awareness.

[Mark Foote]

That got away from me.

 

First off, when I went to Neuro-Linguistic Programming on Wikipedia, I found this:

 

"The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience. Scientific reviews show it contains numerous factual errors,^[3][4] and fails to produce the results asserted by proponents.^[5][6]"

 

With regard to Silas's quote: "...one who keeps to such a path is said to be in state of wu-wei, functioning without intentional effort, moving without intentional action.", we have the following from the Pali Canon in a lecture attributed to Gautama (later known as the Buddha):

 

"That which we will..., and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:--this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existance takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness... whence birth... takes place.

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill."

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society vol. 2 pg 45)

 

The entire mass of ill is elsewhere stated to be "in short, grasping in the five groups", or grasping after a sense of self with respect to material form, feeling, perception, habitual tendency, or consciousness.

 

Someone on the thread spoke of a state like that where awareness of the senses is present, but the motor ability with the body is cut off. In my experience, the difficulty is that the state I associate with meditative trance is a state where action can take place, but the action takes place without intention. Gautama spoke of seeing phenomena in the groups of grasping "as it really is, by means of perfect wisdom", after which he said "for such a one, there can be no 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' with regard to this consciousness-informed body". The question is, how such a trance where habitual activity with respect to the body ceases is induced, and this would be the fourth of the jhanas where Gautama said "habitual activity with respect to in-breaths and out-breaths" ceases.

 

Gautama's practice, both before and after enlightenment, was the intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths. Enlightenment itself he spoke of in many ways, yet he frequently said that even when habitual activity in perception and sensation ceased in the final meditative state (the ninth jhana), "there is only this disturbance remaining, that is to say, the disturbance based on the six senses."

 

It's a sharpening of the senses, a cultivation of the wits to brilliance, through the relaxed abandonment of volitive activity in speech, in body, and in mind, and the abandonment of volition depends on reliquishment of volition in the movement of inhalation and exhalation. The distinction is made because relaxed extension in inhalation is physically different from the relaxed extension in exhalation, even though both are simply relaxation outward along the limbs and upward along the spine. The ligaments that support the fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae are different, in inhalation and exhalation, for starters. Nevertheless, there is a state where the necessity of breath in relaxation causes volition to cease, or a series of states.

 

My guess is that the connection is the same for mediums and trance healers: through the necessity of breath, through the sense of location and gravity informed by the present stretch and activity revealed by proprioception out of necessity in breath.

 

Edited March 2, 2013 by Mark Foote

[silas]

>>The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience.

 

How does this NLP fit into a discussion about trance meditation?

 

>>we have the following from the Pali Canon in a lecture attributed to Gautama (later known as the Buddha):

 

I am dyslexic and have trouble processing that text. Can you summarize what Gautama said in 2 or 3 sentences?

 

>>During group sessions, I notice many who "give in" to the trance state of meditation. They actually appear to be dis-connected from the rest of the group, in their own, or another, world.

 

Are you aware of something called a meditation bell? I saw on TV a bunch of monks meditating inside a Japanese temple for hours. The meditation sessions were so intense, they each had to be woken from the mediation. A monk would go to each person and gently strike the bell to bring them out of the meditative state. Those meditations seemed to be trance states.

 

In my wu-wei training, the person enters a meditative/trance state quickly and learns to remain aware to sense his inborn nature and Tao.

Edited March 3, 2013 by silas

[Spotless]

Are you aware of something called a meditation bell? I saw on TV a bunch of monks meditating inside a Japanese temple for hours. The meditation sessions were so intense, they each had to be woken from the mediation. A monk would go to each person and gently strike the bell to bring them out of the meditative state. Those meditations seemed to be trance states.

 

Did someone tell you they "each had to be woken from the meditation"? LOL!

It would be interesting to know what they were doing. Hours of meditation will generally make one wide awake and not needing to be awoken. Perhaps they were young monks. Or perhaps they were doing some trance work and the bell helped them to regain their meditation space - quite probably that is what was going on. The two are different but I am beating a dead horse on this topic it seems.

 

It may also be that for some teachings what is called meditation by some includes trance states but regardless - It is good to make a distiction between awareness meditations that are not intended to be trance states and sitting with closed eyes in a trance state that you are also calling meditation.

 

Trance states have all sorts of excellent uses - but as you come out of a trance state, a bell may be helpful to have at your side and you should be sure to take time to really come out of trance. (this is why they use a bell in most cases - not to wake you up, but to bring you out of trance)

Breath in deeply, perhaps rub your face and head. Touch the floor. Really be sure you come out of trance and are fully back in your body. It is not a good thing to leave your trance, stand up and walk around or go to bed still in a trance state. This is common to those without teachers and also very common with poor teachers who should actually not be teaching. (far more common than not and ofen passed on from teacher to student sometimes for generations).

 

Trance work is one of those states that comes as a sort of by-product on the path. It becomes easier to do and the results are more interesting and you can play with it quite a bit and more than anything - you can really see, feel and be in a way that you have not before - and you can get there without becoming identified because you are not aware enough to be, even though it is extrodinarily real and tangible. Trance states are often incredible - but if you persist, you will come to see this as a side road and a tool. It is important to know and understand this because it is very difficult to take the bigger steps without this understanding and it is why I have been persistent in this dialog.

 

It is my hope that for those of you who are not addicted to trance states and are considering what you are doing, that you understand trance states are very easy - they are a lazy way into some very interesting stuff - but many who go to that trough on a regular basis start writing books and giving lectures - they identify with the experience and lose their practice. These side roads are enticing and they will inflate your head - they are good tools - learn them, use them, but be sure to clearly end them after any session and clearly enter them - know when trance starts and when you are ending it. Do not walk about in a haze and do not waste your valuable time with yet another addiciton to sleep.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Spotless

[Thunder_Gooch]

Blanket statements such as "meditation does this" are really ignorant. (for clarity I am saying such a statement itself is ignorant, not any person here)

 

There is no one form of meditation.

 

There are literally thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of forms of meditation each with different states and goals.

 

A profoundly deep state of trance is used in many schools/sects during their meditation.

 

Some schools/sects intensely focus on the present moment, and do not enter into a trance.

 

Some sects/schools which demonstrate the most interesting results from their practice utilize the trance state to it's fullest.

 

 

Did someone tell you they "each had to be woken from the meditation"? LOL!

It would be interesting to know what they were doing. Hours of meditation will generally make one wide awake and not needing to be awoken. Perhaps they were young monks. Or perhaps they were doing some trance work and the bell helped them to regain their meditation space - quite probably that is what was going on. The two are different but I am beating a dead horse on this topic it seems.

 

It may also be that for some teachings what is called meditation by some includes trance states but regardless - It is good to make a distiction between awareness meditations that are not intended to be trance states and sitting with closed eyes in a trance state that you are also calling meditation.

 

Trance states have all sorts of excellent uses - but as you come out of a trance state, a bell may be helpful to have at your side and you should be sure to take time to really come out of trance. (this is why they use a bell in most cases - not to wake you up, but to bring you out of trance)

Breath in deeply, perhaps rub your face and head. Touch the floor. Really be sure you come out of trance and are fully back in your body. It is not a good thing to leave your trance, stand up and walk around or go to bed still in a trance state. This is common to those without teachers and also very common with poor teachers who should actually not be teaching. (far more common than not and ofen passed on from teacher to student sometimes for generations).

 

Trance work is one of those states that comes as a sort of by-product on the path. It becomes easier to do and the results are more interesting and you can play with it quite a bit and more than anything - you can really see, feel and be in a way that you have not before - and you can get there without becoming identified because you are not aware enough to be, even though it is extrodinarily real and tangible. Trance states are often incredible - but if you persist, you will come to see this as a side road and a tool. It is important to know and understand this because it is very difficult to take the bigger steps without this understanding and it is why I have been persistent in this dialog.

 

It is my hope that for those of you who are not addicted to trance states and are considering what you are doing, that you understand trance states are very easy - they are a lazy way into some very interesting stuff - but many who go to that trough on a regular basis start writing books and giving lectures - they identify with the experience and lose their practice. These side roads are enticing and they will inflate your head - they are good tools - learn them, use them, but be sure to clearly end them after any session and clearly enter them - know when trance starts and when you are ending it. Do not walk about in a haze and do not waste your valuable time with yet another addiciton to sleep.

Edited March 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Hours of meditation will generally make one wide awake and not needing to be awoken.

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you are also not in meditation.

 

You must become like a baby in the womb, there and yet not there.

 

 

Meditation is like the borderline between sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

 

“Very difficult.”

 

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long periods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to

remember how.”

 

 

 

-The Magus Of Java

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe. Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way The deeper you go into the emptiness, the faster your body will heal. By practicing Qigong we go into the emptiness where we effortlessly balance the Yin and Yang, the female and male energy. As the balance of energy comes back, the body heals.

 

-Chunyi Lin creator of Spring Forest Qigong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

 

The Magus of Java (p. 52)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

-The Magus of Java (p. 56)

Edited March 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[flowing hands]

>>The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience.

 

How does this NLP fit into a discussion about trance meditation?

 

>>we have the following from the Pali Canon in a lecture attributed to Gautama (later known as the Buddha):

 

I am dyslexic and have trouble processing that text. Can you summarize what Gautama said in 2 or 3 sentences?

 

>>During group sessions, I notice many who "give in" to the trance state of meditation. They actually appear to be dis-connected from the rest of the group, in their own, or another, world.

 

Are you aware of something called a meditation bell? I saw on TV a bunch of monks meditating inside a Japanese temple for hours. The meditation sessions were so intense, they each had to be woken from the mediation. A monk would go to each person and gently strike the bell to bring them out of the meditative state. Those meditations seemed to be trance states.

 

In my wu-wei training, the person enters a meditative/trance state quickly and learns to remain aware to sense his inborn nature and Tao.

 

I think you are using the wrong word to describe a certain state in cognitive activity. Wu wei literally means 'no action'. Its use in Daoism by Li Erh is to do with a deep understanding of the interconnection between things. A wise person takes active and aware perception of things and through realization takes 'no action' that would change the natural order of things. So prevents imbalance. What you are describing is to do with Dao Xin practices, or should I say one of the common tools within this practice, which doesn't necessarily lead to wu wei.

[silas]

>>A wise person takes active and aware perception of things and through realization takes 'no action' that would change the natural order of things. So prevents imbalance. What you are describing is to do with Dao Xin practices...

 

The problem is this: what if your natural inclinations have been altered by exposure to the corrupting influence of others, so that you don't know what's natural anymore? Let's say, hypothetically, your normal inciination is to write with your left hand, but because society preferences right-handed people, you learned to write with your right hand. You really don't like writing with your right hand, but everyone else wants to see you as a righty and over time, you've forgotten how to even hold a pencil with your left.

 

Wu-wei training attempts to connect to your inborn nature, so that your subconscious can reassert your true self. Consciously you are a "righty" but naturally you are a lefty. The training helps you ask your subconscious what your truly are.

 

Wu-wei training also attempts to connect you to the mystical Tao, because if you can sense Tao, the connection would be subtle, and the training asks your subconscious to amplify. Classical Taoism as a religion does attempt to actually connect to Tao.

 

 

What is Dao Xin? Is that a form if qigong?

Edited March 3, 2013 by silas

[Spotless]

To More_Pie_Guy

 

HP Lovecraft and The Magnus of Java?

Can you speak from experience. You are a master of cut and paste - we get that.

You have posted other peoples content to the sum of 2035 posts. Of the little that you actually write, it is almost entirely reactive and thoughtless.

Look at your last two post - blah blah blah and then cut and paste.

Your last post - does not have even one word from you - you cut and pasted a line from one of my posts and then you cut and paste what you apparently consider retorts or enlightening fragments from someone you do not understand.

 

You seem utterly entranced by your open air circle jerk - the mechanical man.

 

Make an attempt