Trance and the Path

[RiverSnake]

Indeed, many people are writing bout Trance Theory and what trance actually is.....but I was more interested in the experiences people have had with them....good or bad. Been experimenting with trance recently myself, I feel there are many vehicles for entering a trance state. I set my intent on achieving a certain goal and just allow myself to relax into complete nothingness.

 

From this nothingness I just allow whatever images the mind wishes to project flow and I move with them without resistance, when I am finished with the path I walk back through the states, I retrace my steps through all of the situations and images and return to regular awareness....I then record my experiences in poetry so I can reflect and record them.

 

It's been quite a powerful tool for me. It's been a tool for working with individual blockages that are causing problems which might have taken a longer time to dissolve had I just focused purely in one method of approaching self heaing. IMO a very good tool for working with the personality and integration. Ofcourse this is my understanding from some very simple and limited experiences.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 3, 2013 by OldGreen

[flowing hands]

>>A wise person takes active and aware perception of things and through realization takes 'no action' that would change the natural order of things. So prevents imbalance. What you are describing is to do with Dao Xin practices...

 

The problem is this: what if your natural inclinations have been altered by exposure to the corrupting influence of others, so that you don't know what's natural anymore? Let's say, hypothetically, your normal inciination is to write with your left hand, but because society preferences right-handed people, you learned to write with your right hand. You really don't like writing with your right hand, but everyone else wants to see you as a righty and over time, you've forgotten how to even hold a pencil with your left.

 

Wu-wei training attempts to connect to your inborn nature, so that your subconscious can reassert your true self. Consciously you are a "righty" but naturally you are a lefty. The training helps you ask your subconscious what your truly are.

 

Wu-wei training also attempts to connect you to the mystical Tao, because if you can sense Tao, the connection would be subtle, and the training asks your subconscious to amplify. Classical Taoism as a religion does attempt to actually connect to Tao.

 

 

What is Dao Xin? Is that a form if qigong?

 

I think you need to look at the two pictogram s of wu wei and then understand their root meaning.

 

Dao Xin is the spiritual path that leads to enlightenment. 'Daoist heart'.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Lovecraft quote is my sig, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

 

To More_Pie_Guy

 

HP Lovecraft and The Magnus of Java?

Can you speak from experience. You are a master of cut and paste - we get that.

You have posted other peoples content to the sum of 2035 posts. Of the little that you actually write, it is almost entirely reactive and thoughtless.

Look at your last two post - blah blah blah and then cut and paste.

Your last post - does not have even one word from you - you cut and pasted a line from one of my posts and then you cut and paste what you apparently consider retorts or enlightening fragments from someone you do not understand.

 

You seem utterly entranced by your open air circle jerk - the mechanical man.

 

Make an attempt

Edited March 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

A deep state of trance is absolutely critical to my personal practice, I must be in such a state to even begin my meditation.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi

 

Certain types of trance can lead to dementia.

 

This is a very interesting excerpt about this subject. Consider the effects mentioned in it about experiences in sensory deprivation tanks. The concepts disccussed below do not bode well for TM and AYP's deep meditation..

 

In the state of meditative equipoise, only the aspects of awareness, clarity, and joy of the mind appear, and all one's other sense faculties remain dormant. Thus, while one's consciousness seems as if it has become indivisible with space, one lacks any sensation of having a body; and when rising from that state, it seems as if one's body is suddenly coming into being. When genuine quiescence is achieved, one's attention can effortlessly be maintained for hours, even days, on end, with no interference by either laxity* or excitation.

 

Modern scientific research indicates that when people are artificially brought into a state of sensory deprivation, at first their concentration seems to improve due to the restful atmosphere and the lack of distractions. But after a day or two, concentration and coherent thought become difficult to maintain, resulting in random day-dreaming, repetitious thinking, or panic. The implication drawn from this research is that for our mental health we always need to maintain a certain level of sensory life.27 A Buddhist interpretation of these findings might be that the imbalances characterizing the mind that has not been trained in meditative equipoise are normally shielded by the attentional scattering and excitation that accompany a normal sensory life; but once the mind is deprived of such sensory stimuli, its innate dysfunctions* manifest. By means of training in quiescence, the disequilibrium of the mind is said to be gradually dispelled, and the attention is gradually withdrawn from the senses. The reported end result of this discipline is that the mind may be withdrawn from sensory stimulation for sustained periods-even days on end-without the problems associated with the artificial inducement of sensory deprivation.

 

While Tsongkhapa maintains that the Madhyamaka cultivation of insight is unique to Buddhism, methods for achieving quiescence were discovered in India long before the appearance of Buddha Sakyamuni. Indeed, this was the first kind of contemplative training that Prince Siddhartha sought in his quest for enlightenment. Since then, the practice of samadhi has been utilized in theistic and non-theistic, monist and dualist forms of Hinduism, in Buddhist schools advocating a diversity of views including realism, idealism, and relativism, and in Taoism. Historically, then, the cultivation of sustained voluntary attention does not require allegiance to any one religious creed or philosophical system; and the utilization of concentration in investigating the nature of reality does not, in itself, necessarily result in adherence to any one ideology.

 

The importance of sustained voluntary attention has not been overlooked in the Christian contemplative tradition. In the writings of Augustine, the culminating state of contemplation is necessarily preceded by a training in "recollection" and "introversion." The object of recollection is to shut off all external things from the mind and to empty it of all distracting thoughts. This is the prelude to the mind entering into itself by means of introversion, which is a concentration of the mind on its own highest, or deepest, part. The process of introversion is described as the final step before the soul finds God.28 Pope Gregory concurs that "Only a tranquil mind is able to hold itself aloft in the light of contem- plation."29 However, he maintains that such quiet of the mind can be sustained for only about half an hour. Similarly Aquinas asserts that "in contemplation man is capable of remaining longer without fatigue or distraction than in any other activity";30 but he also maintains that man is not capable of an act continuing without interruption.3' The Jesuit psychologist and scholar of mysticism Joseph Marechal comments in this regard, "There can be no contemplation without sustained attention, at least for a few moments; now attention acts on the psychological elements after the fashion of the poles of a magnet, which gather up iron filings into magnetic shapes."

 

Among Western psychologists, William James especially emphasizes the value of sustained voluntary attention. Under favorable conditions it is possible, he says, to maintain such attention upon a developing topic by repeatedly drawing the attention back when one notes that it has been diverted to something else. He emphasizes, however, that such a topic is actually a succession of mutually related objects that form one identical object to which the attention is directed. To make this point perfectly clear he adds, "There is no such thing as voluntary attention sustained for more than a few seconds at a time. What is called sustained voluntary attention is a repetition of successive efforts which bring back the topic to the mind."33 This remains the view of modern experimental psychology. Moreover, apart from pathological states, James rejects the possibility of attending continuously to an object that does not change. Tsongkhapa acknowledges the possibility of dementia as a result of maintaining the attention on an unchanging object. This may occur, he says, by stabilizing the attention upon a fixed object, without distraction, then allowing the potency of attentional clarity to wane. The result of this malpractice is that one enters a kind of trance in which one's intelligence not only remains dormant but actually degenerates. In this way a state of mental stupor may be mistaken for meditation. The way to avert this danger is by taking on the difficult challenge of enhancing one's attentional clarity without sacrificing attentional stability.

 

The disparity of the claims concerning the possibility and value of sustained voluntary attention by Asian contemplatives, Western Christian contemplatives, and Western psychologists raises a number of fascinating questions for empirical research. Have Asian contemplatives developed more effective techniques for sustaining the attention than are found in Western Christian contemplative traditions, or have the former exaggerated their own attentional prowess? Are contemplatives who practice sustaining their attention upon an unchanging object enhancing their mental health, or are they actually courting idiocy? Finally, does the psychological evidence that attention cannot be sustained for more than a few seconds reflect a fundamental limitation of the human mind, or is this reflective of a high degree of mental agitation that may be especially characteristic of modern Western society?

 

William James asserts that a steady faculty of attention is unquestionably a great boon. Indeed, he argues that "the faculty of voluntarily bring back a wandering attention, over and over again, is the very root of judgment, character, and will ... An education which should improve this faculty would be the education par excellence. But it is easier to define this ideal than to give practical directions for bringing it about."35 While he lauds the ideal of an education that would enhance the faculty of attention, he assumes that no one who is without it naturally can by any amount of drill or discipline attain it in a very high degree. Its amount, he speculates, is probably a fixed characteristic of the individual.

 

Tsongkhapa acknowledges that sustained voluntary attention comes more easily to some types of individuals than to others, but he rejects the hypothesis that this faculty is immutably fixed in anyone. While James classifies people into those who are naturally scatter-brained and others who are easily able to follow a train of connected thoughts, Tsongkhapa identifies five psychological types for whom specific techniques for developing the attention are prescribed. Those are individuals with dominant tendencies towards (1) attachment, (2) hatred, (3) delusion, (4) pride, and (5) ideation.* Although it is easier for some of these types to achieve quiescence than it is for others, methods are presented to counteract these specific imbalances and promote attentional stability.

 

The type of sustained voluntary attention taught by Tsongkhapa may be applied both to discursive meditation, entailing attention upon a developing object, and to stabilizing meditation upon an unchanging object. In his presentations of the stages of the path to enlightenment, Tsongkhapa places an especially strong emphasis on the importance of discursive meditation, and this is fully effective only when one's attention is stable and clear-the two qualities cultivated in the training in quiescence.

 

Among the many Buddhist techniques for cultivating sustained attention upon a stable object, Tsongkhapa expounds on the practice of imagining a visual object, specifically a mental image of the Buddha. At the outset of this training it is difficult even to bring such an image to mind, and even when one succeeds, there is virtually no continuity of the attention. The undisciplined mind alternates between the states of being overwhelmed by habitual agitation and dispersive thoughts and the state of lethargy* when one is overcome by exhaustion. But by returning to this discipline for short session many times a day, compulsive ideation gradually subsides; and a few seconds of attentional continuity upon one's chosen object is accomplished. The mental factor that allows for such continuity is mindfulness,* which is included together with concentration and intelligence in the class of object-ascertaining mental processes. Mindfulness has the function of again and again bringing to mind, without forgetfulness, an object with which one is already familiar. As it prevents the attention from straying from one's chosen object, it acts as the basis for samadhi. When the power of mindfulness has fully emerged, the attention no longer strays from its object. It is especially at this time that there is a danger of falling into a complacent, pseudo-meditative trance, which may result in dementia. One may remain in this state for many hours without distraction, but because too little effort is applied to enhancing the potency of attentional clarity, the mind slips into laxity. The mental factor that has the function of recognizing both attentional excitation and laxity is introspection.* While the mental factor of mindfulness focuses on the meditation object, introspection attends to the quality of the attention itself. Thus, the latter is often likened to a sentry who stands guard against the hindrances of excitation and laxity.

 

Even the presence of mindfulness and introspection are no guarantee against complacency in meditation, for one may recognize the presence of laxity or excitation and still fail to take steps to counteract them. This failure to intervene inhibits further progress in the development of sustained voluntary attention. The remedy, Tsongkhapa declares, is the cultivation of the will,* which is here closely associated with intervention* and striving. The will is the mental factor that engages the mind with various types of objects and activities. In this case, when either laxity or excitation occurs, the mind is stimulated by the will to intervene in order to eliminate them. Tsongkhapa likens the relationship between the mind and the will to iron that moves under the influence of a magnet. The will to eliminate laxity and excitation is aroused by recognizing the disadvantages in succumbing to those hindrances and the advantages in overcoming them.

 

As a result of continuously, diligently counteracting even the most subtle laxity and excitation as soon as they occur, effortless, natural samadhi arises due to the power of habituation.* When this phase of the training is reached, only an initial impulse of will and effort is needed at the beginning of each meditation session; thereafter, uninterrupted samadhi occurs effortlessly. Moreover, the engagement of the will, of striving, and intervention at this point is actually a hindrance. It is time to let the natural balance of the mind maintain itself without interference. Now due to the extraordinarily high degree of stability and clarity of the attention, the imagined visual object acquires before the mind's eye almost the brilliancy of a visually

degree of stability and clarity of the attention, the imagined visual object acquires before the mind's eye almost the brilliancy of a visually perceived object, as William James predicts.

 

The final transition prior to the actual achievement of quiescence entails a radical shift in one's nervous system, which Tsongkhapa describes in terms of a Buddhist theory of vital energies.* According to the Buddhist view, to the extent that

people's minds are subject to laxity and excitation, they are of unsound body and mind. Even when they want to strive to eliminate mental afflictions, the unfitness of their bodies and minds makes them proceed arduously and despondently, as if this were an unpleasant act. Indian and Tibetan Buddhist contemplatives make the remarkable claim that the training in quiescence brings forth both mental pliancy, that allows one to direct one's attention without resistance, and physical pliancy, which lends buoyancy and lightness to one's physical actions. Such mental and physical fitness, Tsongkhapa claims, arise gradually during this training, and just prior to the achievement of quiescence there is a breakthrough in which they suddenly arise to an unprecedented degree.

 

The key factor of both mental and physical pliancy is that they allow one to engage in virtuous pursuits with a sense of lightness, buoyancy, good cheer, and potency. Without this, genuine quiescence has not been achieved. And since quiescence is an indispensable support for the cultivation of contemplative insight, it appears that an exceptional degree of mental and physical fitness are regarded as necessary prerequisites to the unmediated realization of nirvana. The achievement of quiescence also entails the subsiding of the five hindrances of (1) sensual desire,* (2) malice,* (3) drowsiness* and lethargy,* (4) excitation* and remorse,* and (5) doubt.*39 These, too, are considered to be debilitating afflictions, and insofar as the mind is dominated by them, it is unfit for the cultivation of insight.

 

B. Alan Wallace. Balancing The Mind: A Tibetan Buddhist Approach To Refining Attention (Kindle Locations 931-935). Kindle Edition.

[Spotless]

A quote from Tibetian Ice:

 

<Hi

 

Certain types of trance can lead to dementia.

 

This is a very interesting excerpt about this subject. Consider the effects mentioned in it about experiences in sensory deprivation tanks. The concepts disccussed below do not bode well for TM and AYP's deep meditation..

 

Quote

In the state of meditative equipoise, only the aspects of awareness, clarity, and joy of the mind appear, and all one's other sense faculties remain dormant. Thus, while one's consciousness seems as if it has become indivisible with space, one lacks any sensation of having a body; and when rising from that state, it seems as if one's body is suddenly coming into being. When genuine quiescence is achieved, one's attention can effortlessly be maintained for hours, even days, on end, with no interference by either laxity* or excitation.

 

`````````````````B. Alan Wallace. Balancing The Mind: A Tibetan Buddhist Approach To Refining Attention (Kindle Locations 931-935). Kindle Edition.>>

 

A very well researched article from someone who apparently does not "actually" understand much of what they have compiled.

 

This opening statement is actually put together very poorly and is not speaking about advanced meditation levels - it is very simplistic and misleading and reveals at once the somewhat beginning nature of this student.

 

Meditation is not some sort of mind meld with the Universe - in so many ways that is perhaps the objective. As one progresses in meditation they will come back to being in the body and not out of the body during most of their meditation. It will take time for some to recognize when they are drifting off into a trance state and when they are not. Mastery of trance states can take a very long time and it is certainly in a trance state that "all cessation of sense" may take place - you are in fact not at home so to speak.

 

But as you come back to practice within your body, and as you progress, you are not unaware of your body - you are not identified with it - it has no hold on you - you reside within your vessel in stillness - but certainly not lacking in awareness of it - obviously you are not focusing on it - why would you be - unless it needs to pee or needs repositioning.

 

 

We sleep walk by day - rarely out of trance and most of the "masters" sleep walk by night as well.

Show dogs are often hampered by inbreeding.

 

None the less - the lower half of the quoted article is very good.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Spotless

[Spotless]

 

Edited March 3, 2013 by Spotless

[Tibetan_Ice]

A quote from Tibetian Ice:

 

<Hi

 

Certain types of trance can lead to dementia.

 

This is a very interesting excerpt about this subject. Consider the effects mentioned in it about experiences in sensory deprivation tanks. The concepts disccussed below do not bode well for TM and AYP's deep meditation..

 

Quote

In the state of meditative equipoise, only the aspects of awareness, clarity, and joy of the mind appear, and all one's other sense faculties remain dormant. Thus, while one's consciousness seems as if it has become indivisible with space, one lacks any sensation of having a body; and when rising from that state, it seems as if one's body is suddenly coming into being. When genuine quiescence is achieved, one's attention can effortlessly be maintained for hours, even days, on end, with no interference by either laxity* or excitation.

 

`````````````````B. Alan Wallace. Balancing The Mind: A Tibetan Buddhist Approach To Refining Attention (Kindle Locations 931-935). Kindle Edition.>>

 

A very well researched article from someone who apparently does not "actually" understand much of what they have compiled.

 

This opening statement is actually put together very poorly and is not speaking about advanced meditation levels - it is very simplistic and misleading and reveals at once the somewhat beginning nature of this student.

 

Meditation is not some sort of mind meld with the Universe - in so many ways that is perhaps the objective. As one progresses in meditation they will come back to being in the body and not out of the body during most of their meditation. It will take time for some to recognize when they are drifting off into a trance state and when they are not. Mastery of trance states can take a very long time and it is certainly in a trance state that "all cessation of sense" may take place - you are in fact not at home so to speak.

 

But as you come back to practice within your body, and as you progress, you are not unaware of your body - you are not identified with it - it has no hold on you - you reside within your vessel in stillness - but certainly not lacking in awareness of it - obviously you are not focusing on it - why would you be - unless it needs to pee or needs repositioning.

 

Image for a moment - you sit down and settle in for a meditation: Immediately the column of energy from the base of your spine to just above your head becomes a pillar of volcanic containment, your head, neck and lower body vibrant in a magnetic field that seems almost impossible. Your aura fills out into a "skin of light" and then - you begin. And when you end this - your stretch your body - take a deep breath and walk in awareness with your meditative energies quite intact - you feel your aura, you feel your magnetic fields, you feel the pads on your feet as you walk.

 

We sleep walk by day - rarely out of trance and most of the "masters" sleep walk by night as well.

Show dogs are often hampered by inbreeding.

 

None the less - the lower half of the quoted article is very good.

Hi Spotless,

 

You missed it, and perhaps that is because you did not grasp the term "meditative equipoise" ?

 

Here are the actual introductory paragraphs to that topic in the book, followed by the paragraph that you misunderstood.

 

The Cultivation of Quiescence

 

Tsongkhapa maintains that in order for the contemplative cultivation of insight to eliminate forever the mental afflictions that lie at the root of suffering, such insight must be conjoined with a high degree of sustained voluntary attention. The most general term used for such attention is samadhi. Within the context of Buddhist soteriology, this term is used for a wide variety of contemplative states having the common characteristics of single-pointed attention and mental balance. In terms of the fifty-one mental processes* described in Indo-Tibetan Buddhist psychology, samadhi, or concentration, is included among the five object-ascertaining mental processes.23 Here it is defined as a mental factor having the unique function of focusing on its object continually, single-pointedly, and in the same mode.24 As such, it serves as the basis for increasing intelligence,*25 and it enables one to gain mastery over all mundane and supramundane phenomena. In this sense, everyone already possesses varying degrees of concentration, but by and large this mental factor is undeveloped, and its potentials for enhancing intelligence and so on remain undiscovered. William James comments that geniuses commonly have extraordinary capacities for sustained voluntary attention, but he adds, "it is their genius making them attentive, not their attention making geniuses of them. "26 Buddhist psychology, in contrast, suggests that concentration may indeed be a factor in the emergence of extraordinary intelligence. This hypothesis is one that can be tested empirically.

 

A second term that Tsongkhapa frequently uses with reference to sustained voluntary attention is meditative equipoise. This term is often used interchangeably with samadhi. However, the contemplative access to the plane of meditative equipoise* is equivalent to achieving the state of quiescence;* and this latter term refers to a wide range of highly developed states of concentration. With the achievement of quiescence, the attention is drawn inwards and is maintained continuously, single-pointedly upon its object. Tsongkhapa emphasizes that genuine quiescence is necessarily preceded by an experience of an extraordinary degree of mental and physical pliancy,* which entails an unprecedented sense of mental and physical fitness and buoyancy.

 

In the state of meditative equipoise, only the aspects of awareness, clarity, and joy of the mind appear, and all one's other sense faculties remain dormant. Thus, while one's consciousness seems as if it has become indivisible with space, one lacks any sensation of having a body; and when rising from that state, it seems as if one's body is suddenly coming into being. When genuine quiescence is achieved, one's attention can effortlessly be maintained for hours, even days, on end, with no interference by either laxity* or excitation.*

 

B. Alan Wallace. Balancing The Mind: A Tibetan Buddhist Approach To Refining Attention (Kindle Locations 858-860). Kindle Edition.

 

So, as you can see, the topic of that chapter is Shamatha, samadhi, or meditative quiessence. It is stilling the mind.

 

I'm reluctant to discuss anything more with because you seem to be using the term "trance" as something to be mastered. In my vocabulary, "trance" is something to be avoided.

 

Yes, the senses can shut down in trance states, but the senses also shut down in shamatha. (Sanskrit: Pratyahara - at a certain point, when the heart relaxes, the senses will shut off. )

 

I fail to see what your recount of a kundalini episode has to do with shamatha, for kundalini is not shamatha. Shamatha is stilling the mind, the winds. Kundalini is moving the winds; it is an energetic flow. The two are diametrically opposed.

 

Further, Allan Wallace, the author of that book, was a Buddhist monk for 16 years, has a PHD in religious studies, was the interpretor for the Dalai Lama, has written several excellent books and regularily hosts Dozgchen and Shamatha retreats. He is fluent in Tibetan and has practised for over 40 years.

 

I find it offensive that you regard his highly accurate description of samadhi as something that he does not understand, that he is a beginner. But then, perhaps you did not understand the term "meditative equipoise".

 

TI

[Spotless]

In response to Tibetian Ice:

 

I do think "trance" is something to be mastered if you are going to practice it.

I also think it is for the most part something to be avoided.

I am pretty certain I made that quite clear. However, trance states do have their place in these disciplines as you can plainly see.

 

If you are going to play around with trance - then do it with the awareness that it is something not to be taken lightly. Clearly start and stop trance work and be very certain to take yourself out of trance when you are done - that was the basic communication.

 

Regarding my "misunderstanding" : Given the quote you offered - the first paragraph was everything I said it was. I understand the word "equipoise" and perhaps Allan was having a lapse on this paragraph. The lower half of the quote was quite good - though mostly great quotes from other teachers by Allan.

 

 

Regarding his pedigree - he is also someone who started teaching on the subject within 2 years of starting way back in the early 70s. In my dealings with the International Interfaith Council I had the good fortune of meeting with a great many revered spiritual teachers with all sorts of badges and credentials,. They tend to write lots of book and give seminars. It was eye-opening during our considerable talks at just how blinded so many of them were. Regarding degrees, my wife has one of her degrees in Comparative Religion from Harvard - it means nothing regarding any intimate knowledge of any particular practice.

 

I have also been practicing for over 40 years.

 

Your point regarding my "Kundalini Episode" was a mixed bag: It was not a Kundalini episode - I put it up there for other reasons and I have since taken it down. There is a limit to what can be discussed here and still make sense. I was describing something far different than your understanding of it - but it was entirely my fault regarding that - saying in one short paragraph what I was trying to put forth was unacceptable.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Spotless

[Mark Foote]

>>The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience.

 

How does this NLP fit into a discussion about trance meditation?

 

>>we have the following from the Pali Canon in a lecture attributed to Gautama (later known as the Buddha):

 

I am dyslexic and have trouble processing that text. Can you summarize what Gautama said in 2 or 3 sentences?

 

>>During group sessions, I notice many who "give in" to the trance state of meditation. They actually appear to be dis-connected from the rest of the group, in their own, or another, world.

 

Are you aware of something called a meditation bell? I saw on TV a bunch of monks meditating inside a Japanese temple for hours. The meditation sessions were so intense, they each had to be woken from the mediation. A monk would go to each person and gently strike the bell to bring them out of the meditative state. Those meditations seemed to be trance states.

 

In my wu-wei training, the person enters a meditative/trance state quickly and learns to remain aware to sense his inborn nature and Tao.

 

Silas, as to NLP, that was in response to the quoted article by Denis Weir, in particular to the part about hypnosis:

 

 

"Hypnotic Trances

The type of trance studied most has been the hypnotic trance. Milton Erickson, the great psychotherapist, had wonderful and nearly immediate psychological cures in a great many of his patients. His technique was called "Ericksonian hypnosis." Many people tried to explain what it was that he did, because in many cases, his patients claimed that they were not hypnotized and they were not in any kind of trance at all. Erickson's recorded dialogs were analyzed for years to try to find out what it was exactly that made his form of hypnotherapy so successful.

Richard Bandler, John Grinder and others were successful in finally analyzing and modelling Erickson's techniques. They devised what they called "neuro-linguistic programming," also known as NLP, which is based primarily on Erickson's techniques."

 

Maybe I'll look into Ericksonian hypnosis, but it appears that the work of Bandler and Grinder has been discredited.

 

The text from the Pali Canon, summarized:

 

What we will, or intend to do, or are preoccupied with, causes our consciousness to become fixed (or stationed), and this ultimately will result in our grasping after a sense of self (the grasping after a sense of self is identically suffering).

 

I would say that it's the most difficult aspect of Gautama's teaching, that he speaks of birth, sickness, and old age as suffering and then summarizes suffering as grasping after self in the five groups. For me it's direct, when I have a sense of internal happiness, of happiness not a result of pleasure or displeasure in the senses, then I can see that there is a freedom of the place of occurrence of consciousness that is necessary to happiness, and that in ignorance and activity my consciousness can become stationed and I am in effect stuck on myself.

 

At least as far as the man who was later called the Buddha was concerned, the final trance state that he practiced included the disturbance associated with the six senses. He spoke of enlightenment as "deliverance from thought without grasping", but this was not a suspension of sensory awareness, since he said the disturbance was still there.

 

The essential difference for me is in the realization of the relaxed extension that is necessary to breath; there's a cessation of habitual activity that enters into a relaxed extension, yet such a cessation is dependent on the necessity of inhalation or exhalation, and so is a natural consequence of awareness. Oddly, it's the sense of location, and the way in which proprioception and gravity become a part of that sense of location, that allows a relaxed extension in the movement of breath; these are senses that Gautama never spoke of, except when he described the feeling of each of the meditative states, yet he did emphasize that his practice before and after enlightenment was "the intent concentration on in-breaths and out-breaths".

[RiverSnake]

For those talking about the dangers of trance, I thought I would list some of the warnings I have found in a variety of books and interviews.

 

1. Have an exact or focused intent on what you wish to accomplish when going into trance. (So you don't get distracted)

 

2. Keep you trance structured with a beginning and an end much like a ritual. (So your reality doesn't get warped)

 

3. Retrace your steps back through your trance rather than returning to your body immediately. (So soul fragmentation does not occur)

 

 

4. Do not practice Trance if you are Bipolar or have some kind of psychological disorder. (You can potentially destroy yourself mentally)

 

--------------------------------------

 

Spotless mentioned Trance being seen as a side-path. I very much agree, for me personally, in my limited experiences I have found it to be a very useful tool for self-healing, receiving advice/knowledge.....etc.

 

However, although it can be very useful in certain situations, it is not the whole enchilada. Like anything in the esoteric world, if it is not approached with a certain level of integrity and self-knowledge then it can be very entangling. These things are better understood than feared IMO.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 4, 2013 by OldGreen

[Thunder_Gooch]

Being in the state between waking and sleeping for long periods of time isn't going to hurt or cause anyone problems.

 

People with Schizophrenia might have bad reactions to it, but they don't need to be pursuing any form of meditation to begin with.

[Mark Foote]

Being in the state between waking and sleeping for long periods of time isn't going to hurt or cause anyone problems.

 

People with Schizophrenia might have bad reactions to it, but they don't need to be pursuing any form of meditation to begin with.

 

I've taken some flak for asserting that whatever there is of enlightenment has to do with the experience of hynogogia, the state between waking and sleeping, which I find more readily communicated as "waking up and falling asleep". It's not like I drop into a state that has any permanence, it's like I'm waking up or I'm falling asleep, yet I continue doing so. I'm as close as I've ever been to describing how action takes place without the exercise of volition when I say that proprioception and even "unconscious" belief enter into the sense of place in the movement of breath, and the action becomes waking up and falling asleep.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Mark Foote

[AussieFrog]

Wow - what an interesting thread. I think it's safe to say that everybody has a different idea of what trance is, what meditation is, and which levels of each are conducive to proper mind/body/spirit training.

 

I've always accepted trance as a necessary, albeit, small portion of meditative exercises. Sometimes trancing out can be very helpful imo. Other times, other meditations are necessary to build and understanding of ones self.

To maintain awareness is one of the more difficult tasks. For instance, the void meditation requires full awareness, actively removing any disturbances, and not allowing the self to "trance out".

However, oddly enough, certain awareness meditations require allowing the self to trance out, but maintaining enough awareness to be an observer and taking the back seat as you watch the silliness unfold before you yet keeping from indulging in it.
As many of us have, I'm sure, I've played with all sorts of trances, meditations, and states of consciousness. To say that any one is particularly damaging to ones progress is, I think, not totally correct. I think one needs to have a firm grasp on what is possible and be well experienced in nearly any possible state. To become one-sided, however, and become indulgent in just one corner of the consciousness state playground is - in my opinion - what it to be avoided. Not necessarily that corner itself.

[RiverSnake]

I was working in Trance a bit a couple of months ago and I found that after my work was finished and I returned I felt a surge or influx of energy throughout my body and it agrivated some blockages in my chest which I guess it rubbed up against.

 

Anyone have any experiences like that when doing this kind of work? Haven't done any more of that particular type of trance work because I thought it might be a bit too rough on my channels and unforgiving on my blockages.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 14, 2013 by OldGreen

[silas]

OldGreen, I'd try a subliminal meditation and tailor the script to attend the blockages. In this kind of meditation (a form of fire meditation), you are instructing your subconscious to handle the blockages in a way that's natural to your physiology. Just like your body oversees its functions unconsciously - e.g., without you having to think about it directly.

 

The success of a subliminal meditation depends on how you build the script.

 

Subliminal Meditation: Eliminate Blockages And Open A Path To Self Inquiry

[RiverSnake]

I wasn't really concerned about the block. I have progressed and continue dissolve those areas through my neigong. I was simply interested in the influx of energy. I was curious about what kind of dynamic is created when doing work in Trance, especially with other Beings, it seems like one can end up on the receiving end of an influx of energy and ones energy body has to be pliable enough to process it....anyone got any familiarity with stuff like that?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 14, 2013 by OldGreen

[Spotless]

I wasn't really concerned about the block. I have progressed and continue dissolve those areas through my neigong. I was simply interested in the influx of energy. I was curious about what kind of dynamic is created when doing work in Trance, especially with other Beings, it seems like one can end up on the receiving end of an influx of energy and ones energy body has to be pliable enough to process it....anyone got any familiarity with stuff like that?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Trance and other beings - I did not bring this topic up because it is such a large topic.

I have extensive knowledge in this area.

 

One of the reasons that trance states are rightfully regarded with caution is the ease of interaction with other beings - interactions that you are not necessarily very aware of or aware of at all. I have personally witnessed more sincere seekers of the truth go off the deep-end working in Trance states and with beings and mediumship than in any other endeavor.

 

Their is nothing wrong with trance states per se - it is a state one can be in and we often are - it is possible to argue that for most of our lives we are in a trance state - a state where we are highly suggestible to anything that supports our "story" and identifications.

 

However - that said and not meaning to beat a dead horse:

 

You may find that in a trance state you are able to allow a more lenient access to your space to beings who would like to work with you in and through your body. In doing so - they will often accommodate themselves to your space by clearing out stuck energies, raising the vibrations in specific areas or generally, and in many cases rearranging pathways that better suit their view of what you / they favor.

 

Please understand the following points - you own your body and so you own the karma - they do not own the karma that you allow for them in your body. No being in the entire universe has even one ounce or shred of seniority over your body - and for that matter - you are a human - quite a special being you are.

 

Virtually every being that will interact with you in this way is being done a huge act of openness and kindness on your part - it is not the other way around. 99.9% of the books written in trance and attributed to an "Angel" are either written by the actual persons higher self or by a being transcribing wisdom from the actual persons akashic records. Most people cannot have themselves but they can have an "Angel" - some "other" being.

 

I preface with these observations because if you wish to work with beings in a trance state - you can set the ground rules and if they are not totally in agreement with your rules - tell them to take a hike!

Your space - Your body - is your house - prior to letting them enter - you can tell them the ground rules like:

Take off your shoes before you enter - do not move things around unless I ask you to - when you leave I expect you to take all of your energy with your and to put everything back the way you found it unless I have asked you to do otherwise.

 

Beings can take any velance suitable to your predispositions - they can appear as a human, a ball of light, an angel, a fairy or what ever works for their intention. If you are willing, they can play with your space in amazing ways - it is just as easy to dupe you as heal you.

 

If you proceed, I suggest becoming as clear and neutral as you can prior to going into a trance state.

Set the ground rules with the beings - perhaps only allowing them into your hands or shoulders and arms at first.

Speaking with them even if for you it is pretending to do so - it is very real and you will know this in time.

When you are coming out of trance - do so very clearly - and them speak to them - ask that they fully disengage from your space. Tell them to put everything back just as it was - all settings to your natural settings - except those areas you may have asked them to heal. Specifically state that all agreements that you have made with them are now over and completed.

 

In other words - show them the front door and say goodby. Just like a guest - you don't just allow them to hang out and come and go on their own. And you don't let them leave dirty dishes and food on the floor - or rearrange the furniture.

 

 

At the end of a session with a being or group of beings, it is not uncommon to feel a surge of energy as you come back into your general space. For one thing - they have probably revved your space up considerably. Secondly, if they were doing energy work they did so unencumbered by a lack of seeing stuck energy that you may resist seeing and therefore hold.

 

Some of these being are highly specialized - watching them work will often show you how to work - very fast and with no effort.

In most cases as you become better at this - you will find that you are much better at it than they are - but you may not know this for some time. In any event - the exchange is exciting and you are actually working and talking with beings without bodies!

Pretty cool stuff - and validating.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Spotless

[RiverSnake]

Wow, thanks for such a thorough post Spotless. It's definitely food for thought. I am continually attempting to assess the value of this practice.

 

My 2 cent, Peace

Edited March 17, 2013 by OldGreen

[RiverSnake]

Spotless, I was curious, is working with Trance something you still practice and find practicality and well as joy in doing or is it something you let go off at higher levels of attainment?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 18, 2013 by OldGreen

[Spotless]

Spotless, I was curious, is working with Trance something you still practice and find practicality and well as joy in doing or is it something you let go off at higher levels of attainment?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

I don't work with it anymore - If i were to bring in a being for healing purposes I would not be in a trance state.

I would limit them to my hand chakras or limited access. It has not occurred to me to bring in a being for quite a long time until this question.

Typically I do not want to be in a trance state. If I am doing some healing/energy work on someone, trance is not necessary - I can go where I want from my chair and watch what I do - I am able to let myself go and it is much more intense now.

 

My young son plugs into me fairly openly but I have a clear sense of when he is in my head - my wife does the same - but this is not trance - they are attention points.

[manitou]

Spotless, your words have an awfully nice resonance to them....

[silas]

My young son plugs into me fairly openly but I have a clear sense of when he is in my head - my wife does the same - but this is not trance - they are attention points.

 

Is this the way to bring about a one-world religion if people plug into each other?

[RiverSnake]

Can anyone recommend a type of natural incense which is good for aiding in trance states?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[hydrogen]

Can anyone recommend a type of natural incense which is good for aiding in trance states?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

weed.