Enlightenment - the Short Way

[Vmarco]

A rough estimate, after reveiwing about a years worth of posts, suggests that nearly 20% of TTB'ers are interested in enlightenment. The intent of this thread is to use the Heart Sutra to pivot a discussion from,...thus keeping personal opinion, beliefs, and interpretations to a minimum. Of course, TTB is known for its spoilers,...those who seldom have anything to share, except ad hominem, to dampen, injure, blot, disempower, and troll; that is, post inflammatory, nonsensical, extraneous, off-topic messages to disrupt the experience of others.

 

I can promise, a most sublime thread, less any disruptions,...which I will not respond to, as has been the case in other threads.

 

In Buddhism, a prerequisite for enlightenment is compassion. This appears synonymous with Taoist sources, such as the Hua Hu Ching. Thus, the Short Way to Enlightenment is through compassion. However, Buddhism has specific statements regarding the realization of compassion.

 

HH Dalai Lama said, "If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara"

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

With that in mind, the following quote is understandable: "Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's.

 

The goal of a Bodhisattva is compassion. Is the goal any different for a Taoist?

 

Lao-zu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

The Short Way to enlightenment is through compassion,...and yet according those closest to the subject, compassion is impossible without the realization of emptiness.

 

The Heart Sutra is a single page guide to the realization of emptiness, by way of prajnaparamita,...or the Perfection of the Prajna or wisdom beyond the 5 skandhas,...an insight not tethered to the 6 senses.

 

The realization of emptiness only occurs upon the dissolution of beliefs,...something that the monkey-mind rejects.

 

Lao-zu said, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."

 

Besides the Heart Sutra itself,...the commentary "The Heart Attack Sutra" by Karl Brunnholzl would be most helpful in this thread.

 

Look forward to a discussion,...on the Short Way to Enlightenment.

 

　

"All the joy the world contains

Has come through wishing happiness for others.

All the misery the world contains

Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself." Shantideva

　

 

　

[idiot_stimpy]

'Emptiness', 'No Self' and 'Impermanence' are extremely powerful antidotes.

 

When the emptiness of self, and the emptiness of phenomenon is seen as an illusion, merely a mental projection, the duality of subject and object dissolves.

[Vmarco]

'Emptiness', 'No Self' and 'Impermanence' are extremely powerful antidotes.

 

When the emptiness of self, and the emptiness of phenomenon is seen as an illusion, merely a mental projection, the duality of subject and object dissolves.

 

No,...The Heart Sutra implies that when the 5 skandhas are seen as the emptiness they are, phenomena is seen subjectively for what it is (that is empty), yet the object does not dissolve. This does not mean that the object ever existed,...it is merely empty,...always was, always will be.

 

In a lucid dream, we can see that the objects in the dream are empty, although to the 6 senses, the objects appear to exist. Emptiness is the real nature of all phenomena. Our liberation from sentient beingness is not in its dissolution, but the realization that sentient beingness is empty of any nature of its own.

 

As the Heart Sutra implies,...empty and form are not separate,...nor is empty separate from feeling, discrimination,formation, and consciousness,...all are empty.

 

Karl Brunnholzl wrote, "Emptiness is not some kind of spiritual atom bomb that destroys everything that we know, though it may seem that way sometimes because it crashes the hard drive of our ego-mind with all its stored belief systems."

 

This is why the first Absolute Bodhicitta lojong says, "Look at everything you preceive as a dream." When you do,...that is, can perceive everything as a dream, it uncovers absolute bodhicitta or realization of prajnaparamita.

 

To understand the 4 Noble Truths is to appreciate emptiness. To understand Dependent Origination is to appreciate emptiness.

[thelerner]

I'd say it all begins with emptiness. Training to have a quiet mind is thee prerequisite. Because there are the 5 thieves we begin by sitting with a simple object of concentration be it counting breaths, mantra, or mental trick of letting thoughts flow away of there own volition. From there we continue until we sit thoughtless for extended amounts of time. To me the goal is keeping that state in throughout the day. I think K. has described it beautifully.

 

I think the practice of 'perceiving everything as a dream' is good if it keeps ones focus open and not caught up in maelstrom of thoughts, but reality is the chair really is a chair, you are looking at a computer screen right now, otherwise why the hell am I typing?? So its a useful practice but its not reality. In a lucid dream you can fly, in reality you can't.

 

Strive for emptiness; thoughts, planning and logic are nifty tools, but they are not meant to be our every day state. We've confused our tools with our selves.

Edited December 22, 2012 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

Strive for emptiness; thoughts, planning and logic are nifty tools, but they are not meant to be our every day state. We've confused our tools with our selves.

 

Our everyday state would optimally be one where we see everything the way it is. This is why Sakyamuni implied that suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are,...the way things are, are not the way they appear. Everything that appears, is through the illusion of yin/yang, which is born of One,...and yet One, which is born from the Tao, is also empty.

 

Lao-zu correctly said, "The Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to yin and yang. Yin and yang give birth to all things....The Tao gives rise to all form, yet is has no form of its own."

 

All form (feeling, etc) is empty (according to the Heart sutra),...however, I concur with the implications in the Mountain Doctrine, that the Tao is not empty, as form is empty.

 

Many seek something of permanence. In much of mundane Buddhism, there is only discussion on impermanence. The Mahaparanirvana sutra pointed to another Empty,...realized beyond nirvana. Such a discussion is often frowned upon,...however, IMO such discussion can move an aspirant further,...into a state of non-meditation.

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source." Esther Hicks

 

Appreciation arises from Non-meditation.

 

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear." Lao-zu

Edited December 22, 2012 by Vmarco

[Cheshire Cat]

Very interesting thread. Thank you! :-)

 

I'm interested in compassion because I can't really get it in a bodhisattvic way. I cultivate emptiness and the understanding of the three characteristics, but compassion doesn't come from emptiness in my experience. Ok, I'm not a good practitioner but I can't see any compassion growing in a long frame of time ... is it a thing that pop-up suddenly?

 

Who is it that have compassion? To whom I should be compassionate?

I have no compassion for what I generally consider to be myself. How could I see trough illusion with compassion? It's like crossing a river with a plate armor.

 

Please, clarify this matter.

[adept]

Compassion is something that I have trouble with also. I would dearly like to be compassionate to every sentient being, but when I think of paedophiles, torturers and sadistic murderers and events such as the Newtown school massacre, I just can't bring myself to have any feelings of even equanimity towards such people.

Maybe I'm just not ready for it yet.

[skydog]

I appreciate the post

 

On compassion: You strengthen connections in the human brain every time you think certain thoughts, overtime your ability and ease to think thoughts of compassion increases...seeing things from anothers perspective, sending love to enemies, accpeting repressed parts of yourself, seeing everyone as yourself, seeing everyone as making the best possible decision they can according to their current knowledge, thoughts/beliefs, there are certain thoughts/beliefs which may inhibit one from being compassionate or valuing compassion eg compassion is a form of weakness and feminine, I am not good enough the way I am etc, also the more you cultivate the more you get rid of negative emotions and beliefs which get in the way of your being in an amazing state which will make you more likely to react.

Edited December 22, 2012 by sinansencer

[Apech]

Without wishing to intrude on Vmarco's thread I found this helpful to listen to on compassion ... on the idea that it is about understanding and not feeling (and certainly not sentimentality):

 

[Jeff]

 

Many seek something of permanence. In much of mundane Buddhism, there is only discussion on impermanence. The Mahaparanirvana sutra pointed to another Empty,...realized beyond nirvana. Such a discussion is often frowned upon,...however, IMO such discussion can move an aspirant further,...into a state of non-meditation.

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

 

Thank you Vmarco for these wise words.

 

Meditation is of the mind. True existence can be found in the heart.

 

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Ok, this is good.

 

But how does this apply to those cultivators who seek to embody the principle of "If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha"?

Everything apart from the Real Nature is garbage which a buddhist should get rid of.

In this view, I ask "If I cultivate enlightenment, I cut false thoughts... how could it be that one could get compassion out of this?"

 

Compassion is a set of thoughts which one should intentionally cultivate, if he wants to have them.

For example, vajrayana practice involves specific visualization and prayers to get compassion.

 

As a daoist, I see Ch'an buddhism as the most high form of cultivation of Xing.

How could one cultivate compassion with zazen?

Equanimity at the very least... yet, one seeks to get rid even of this.

 

I appreciate the post

 

On compassion: You strengthen connections in the human brain every time you think certain thoughts, overtime your ability and ease to think thoughts of compassion increases...seeing things from anothers perspective, sending love to enemies, accpeting repressed parts of yourself, seeing everyone as yourself, seeing everyone as making the best possible decision they can according to their current knowledge, thoughts/beliefs, there are certain thoughts/beliefs which may inhibit one from being compassionate or valuing compassion eg compassion is a form of weakness and feminine, I am not good enough the way I am etc, also the more you cultivate the more you get rid of negative emotions and beliefs which get in the way of your being in an amazing state which will make you more likely to react.

Edited December 22, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[GrandmasterP]

Cut and paste 'wisdom' yet again.

Reading is not experiencing, it is reading.

Regurgitation is just that.

Compassion has to be manifest, if someone talks the talk but obviously cannot yet walk the walk then it's just talk. Nothing more.

There's a morbidly obese chap sells physical/spiritual work out courses and DVDs online.

Some buy his products.

Nuff said.

Edited December 22, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[skydog]

Ok, this is good.

 

But how does this apply to those cultivators who seek to embody the principle of "If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha"?

Everything apart from the Real Nature is garbage which a buddhist should get rid of.

In this view, I ask "If I cultivate enlightenment, I cut false thoughts... how could it be that one could get compassion out of this?"

 

Compassion is a set of thoughts which one should intentionally cultivate, if he wants to have them.

For example, vajrayana practice involves specific visualization and prayers to get compassion.

 

As a daoist, I see Ch'an buddhism as the most high form of cultivation of Xing.

How could one cultivate compassion with zazen?

Equanimity at the very least... yet, one seeks to get rid even of this.

 

Here is my own view on your question bare in mind I am open to being off the mark and I also would like to cultivate more compassion.

 

In Zen they value emptiness, but they also value compassion. These are the two things they value.

 

Even if you surrender are empty etc, you still live in the world, your mind and subconscious still operate, so if you practice doing nothing, and let go and be in the wuwei what happens will be as a result of the belief systems, subconscious etc that operates.

 

This may seem paradoxical but both can exist at the same time...

[Jeff]

 

Here is my own view on your question bare in mind I am open to being off the mark and I also would like to cultivate more compassion.

 

In Zen they value emptiness, but they also value compassion. These are the two things they value.

 

Even if you surrender are empty etc, you still live in the world, your mind and subconscious still operate, so if you practice doing nothing, and let go and be in the wuwei what happens will be as a result of the belief systems, subconscious etc that operates.

 

This may seem paradoxical but both can exist at the same time...

 

Hi Sinansencer,

 

Sorry to intrude on your conversation with Dao, but part of "emptiness" is pulling the subconscious/unconscious into the conscious. Wuwei is the natural (and compassionate) flow, once one has "let go" of subconscious ego/issues/fears. One is not "empty" if they are still finding themself pulled (jerked around) by subconscious beliefs and ego issues.

 

[Vmarco]

 

 

Who is it that have compassion? To whom I should be compassionate?

I have no compassion for what I generally consider to be myself. How could I see trough illusion with compassion? It's like crossing a river with a plate armor.

 

 

Perhaps compassion could be seen in terms of relative and absolute:

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Relatively, we may see compassion as feelings for sympathy and sorrow for others,...however, the Heart sutra (dictated by the Bodhisattva of Compassion) says feeling is empty,...that real or absolute compassion, is effortlessly expressed through the seeing of things as they are,...that is, as empty.

 

Thus, compassion isn't seeing through the illusion, but compassion is a consequence of seeing through the illusion.

 

Lao-zu said, "To attain pure Tao (realization of emptiness) you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe:

 

The first is the earth energy. Centered in the belly, itexpresses itself as sexuality. Those who cultivate and master the physical energy attain partial purity;

 

Second is the heaven energy. Centered in the mind, it expresses itself as knowledge and wisdom. Those whose minds merge with the Universal Mind also attain partial purity.

 

Third is the harmonized energy. Centered in the heart, it expresses itself as spiritual insight. Those who develop spiritual insight also attain partial purity.

 

Only when you attain you achieve all three - mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virturous integral life, can you attain pure Tao."

 

The Heart Sutra is the Heart of Prajnaparamita. Prajnaparamita literally means the Perfection of Spiritual Insight.

 

Heart-Mind in the absolute understanding is that which is aware of Full Spectrum Consciousness; it is uncovered, as Mahamudra says, when "the train of discursive and conceptual thought ends." Neither the cerebral-mind, nor the other senses, can gaze into Heart-Mind. The 6 senses can only know that of the 6 senses or consciousness'. Those consciousness; are often bound within a prison-like state called samsara ot the "conditioned experience."

 

In Freethought Buddhism, the 7th and 8th consciousness' are as gateways for the Heart Center and Heart-Mind respectfully. However, we do not seek the 7th and 8th consciousness', we simply tag all that is the 6 senses as the 6 senses. We do that to ease the surrender process. It is easier to let go of what is false, than what we may believe to be meaningful.

 

 

As Eckhart Tolle correctly said, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

　

 

Earth energy is the realization of the physical barycenter,...in Hapkido this is called the Danjun, whereas in T'ai chi it is termed the dantian. A barycenter is the balance point of two or more conditions. In astrology, one's Part of Fortune or Joy, is the barycenter of the natives Sun, Moon, and Ascendent. In astronomy, the barycenter of most planets is within it's sphere; unlike Pluto, whose barycenter or point of balance is between itself and largest moon, Charon, which is actually not a moon, but a slightly smaller binary planet. In other words, although seemingly small, the electrodynamic field produced from the Pluto and Charon dance may very well be larger than that of most single planets. The Danjun/Dantien is synonymous with the barycenter of the lower 3 chakras, whose long wavelengths, low frequency colors are red, orange, and yellow.

　

 

What Lao Tzu purportedly called Heaven energy is realized through the barycenter or balance point of the thyroid, pineal, and pituitary glands, or upper three chakras, whose short wavelengths, high frequency colors are blue, indigo, and violet.

 

These can be symbolized through the David Star. The interlacing of triangles of fire and water manifests the yang (Earth) interlaced downward triangle, with the Yin (Heaven) interlaced upward triangle. Therefore, the yang of Heaven is Fire; and the yin of Earth is Water. The interlacing is the 7th point, or green ray, which is the one without a twin, where a Balanced Harmonic Interchange is realized at the Heart (thymos/Anahata,...whose physical aspect, that is the thymus gland, in today's society begins atrophying around puberty). This is the threshold of the Heart Center,... the transmutative doorway to Heart-Mind. In pre-christian Greece the butterfly-like thymus gland was said to have been larger than the heart.

 

The Heart Mind is unobscured through direct cognizance of the harmonic balanced interchange of Earth (Yang) and Yin (Heaven). An unfortunate problem today is that very few understand Yang/Yin or Who's Who in Duality; and thus the nature of form is misinterpreted. Most contemporary Taoist are attached to relative, human-centric notions about duality.

 

　

 

Lao-zu said, "Because yin an yang are not complete within us as individuals, we pair up to integrate them, and bring new life. Although most people spend their entire lives following this biological impulse, it is only a tiny portion of our beings as well."

 

　

 

In bodhicitta's absolute viewpoint, yang descends from above (compressing, converging, imploding) and manifests the outward shape of the penis. Yin ascends from below (dissolution, diverging, exploding) and manifests the inward shape of the vagina.

 

The propaganda of self-proclaimed visionaries however, continually accommodates absurd misunderstandings of duality. One of these visionaries wrote that male yang is "explosive, centrifugal, warming, destructuring, and dissipating, while the female yin is implosive, centripetal, cooling, structuring, and integrative." Once again, these are ego statements, based on a human-centric viewpoint, not nature’s reality. How is dissipating or destructuring warming? How is implosiveness and structuring cooling? These human-centric viewpoints only encourage a world in which people consider non sequiturs meaningful.

 

To access Heart-Mind there must be cognition of who’s who in duality from the point of view of what is being observed. The reality of duality is this: yin is feminine, spiral-out, diverging, radiative, expansive, disintegrating, explosive, discharging, centrifugal, cooling, dissipating, exhaling, and ascending (notice how these are all complimentary terms). Yang is masculine, spiral-in, converging, generative, contractive, integrating, implosive, charged, centripetal, heating, accumulating, inhaling, and descending (again, all complimentary terms). Intermixing or attributing yin characteristics to yang or vice versa because someone feels that feminine energy should be structuring and masculine energy destructuring is disingenuous. Of course those on Long Paths will object, as they don't want to see that what they thought was meaningful may actually be meaningless.

 

　

 

However, from an absolute (that is, not relative) Tao point of view, dark yin initiates compression from cold, thus multiplying cold to create incandescence through yang’s heat. The compressed heat expands, thus dividing crystallized light and yang’s heat back to dark, yin cold. That is the pulse of the harmonic balanced interchange of duality. Through the Emptiness of yin, perceived creation dies into Form, but at no time is Form separate from Emptiness, or is Emptiness separate from Form.

 

　

 

The Heart-Center is not only the 7th point, or interlacing of the Magen David, but analogous with the 7th sense or consciousness. This 7th sense (which vibrates as the color of green light) is not the transcendental or 8th sense; however, the 7th sense (Heart Center) is the gate so-to-say to the 8th sense (Heart-Mind). The 8th sense vibrates as white light. If you spin green light (real emotion) with red light (the physical or Earth center) and violet light (the mental or Heaven center) it makes white light. Clear or "stainless" consciousness is the 9th consciousness. According to Short Path practioners through the ages, nothing is greater or less than nine,...a subject that can be discussed through the nine-pointed vajra; Gurdjieff's enneagram; the nature of light (that is, the nine optic planes through which spectra or photons multiply into form and divide back into emptiness); Mayan cosmology; the Nine Dakini Secrets; Nine Siddha perfections; the nine point unwinding swastika of the Bönpo through which they cultivated feminine path to Heart-Mind; correspondences with Egyptian and Vajrayana philosophies, etc.

　

 

Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Unfabricated means without predispositions, as from beliefs. Present awareness only arises beyond the 6 senses. This is not about a perceived or relative present. Thus perhaps why so many are content on Long Paths, where the laborous struggle to maintain object-ivity and separation make that world more palatable. The 6 senses (sight, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, and thinking) cannot observe the Present. The 6 senses can only observe motion. There is no Present in motion.

To tap into the transcendental or meta-senses, where there is a coherence of gnowingness, the Short Pather welcomes the uncovering of Heart-Mind from the barriers built against it. Thus, such a shift necessitates a considerable letting go of beliefs.

The Unconditional cannot be accessed through conditions.

[GrandmasterP]

Cut and paste.

Poor wee lad.

[Vmarco]

Hi Sinansencer,

 

Sorry to intrude on your conversation with Dao, but part of "emptiness" is pulling the subconscious/unconscious into the conscious. Wuwei is the natural (and compassionate) flow, once one has "let go" of subconscious ego/issues/fears. One is not "empty" if they are still finding themself pulled (jerked around) by subconscious beliefs and ego issues.

 

 

For the conversation,...perhaps we befriend the so-called subconscious, and see it as empty as everything else.

 

Certainly, a main obstacle to full-spectrum consciousness is beliefs, not only the beliefs of the conscious mind, but also the beliefs of the larger subconscious mind. All of the programming of our learning, memories, emotions, and experiences is stored in the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is the nonlogical, habit-oriented, resistant-to-change, deeper level of the individual-oriented conscious mind. Much of what we receive from outer circumstances is a reflection of what is given or projected through the subconscious. The subconsciousness alters perceptions, just as the film or celluloid medium alters the light between a bulb and the "silver screen." If your outer circumstances do not seem to match your so-called everyday consciousness, this arise from beliefs embedded in your subconscious mind.

 

The conscious mind has been compared to the tip of an iceberg, and the subconscious mind to the larger mass of the iceberg under the surface. Full-spectrum consciousness is an awareness of the conscious mind, the subconscious mind, and the ocean that adjoins the subconscious mind. This ocean is often called the higher consciousness. The ocean of higher consciousness has an intimate interrelationship with all other icebergs, and in that context is often termed the collective unconscious.

 

Considering this water-based analogy, imagine placing some of the fresh, higher-consciousness water that lies close to the iceberg in a twenty-cube freezer tray. Let’s analyze that water. All of the water is the same. However, when the tray is frozen and reanalyzed, there will be twenty individual, distinct, intricately latticed ice crystals, each one as different from the others as a snowflake or a fingerprint. The tip of the iceberg, which has no sensory, direct contact with the water, thinks that it is an individual, although it suspects the possibility of a subconscious. The subconscious, on the other hand, is connected not only to the conscious mind, but also to the higher consciousness, which is connected to the collective unconscious. Thus the subconscious is a vehicle to realize higher levels of evolutionary potential, as the physical body is the vehicle through which we interact with and experience nature.

 

The subconscious, or consciousness of inductive reasoning, perceives reality differently than does deductive reasoning, which is the mental process of ego consciousness (the tip of the iceberg). The subconscious, as has been shown repeatedly by those who study it, is easily programmed or media-ted by cultural beliefs and groupthink, but also exhibits a resistance to change. The subconscious is not inaccessible to change, but needs a profound shift in beliefs from the conscious mind. If the conscious mind affirms that "poverty consciousness" is not a viable belief, then the subconscious may have to let go of its belief in "poverty consciousness," but this shift is not automatic. Many people are governed by their subconscious beliefs, which may be at odds with the New-Age affirmations they repeat. As in the example of poverty consciousness, they may remain trapped in struggling from paycheck to paycheck, until the beliefs are abated.

 

The tip of the iceberg says, "I think, therefore I am." The purpose of full-spectrum consciousness is to shift the I am so it is before the I think, and thus to flow with the full stream of life, from the collective unconscious to the phenomenal consciousness. This requires relinquishing the perspective of an imagined individual looking outside its perceived self for connection and purpose.

[Vmarco]

Cut and paste.

Poor wee lad.

 

An example of a spoiler, as noted in the top post.

[GrandmasterP]

Could be a short way to enlightenment.

You just never know til you try chum.

[skydog]

Hi Sinansencer,

 

Sorry to intrude on your conversation with Dao, but part of "emptiness" is pulling the subconscious/unconscious into the conscious. Wuwei is the natural (and compassionate) flow, once one has "let go" of subconscious ego/issues/fears. One is not "empty" if they are still finding themself pulled (jerked around) by subconscious beliefs and ego issues.

 

 

hmmm

 

I am pondering this, I have been in the state of wu wei/surrender a few days in the past few months..Also could one call being very drunk a couple years back very similar to that state. To me it is very difficult to control extreme emotions that cloud your judgement, otherwise wed all be enlightened to some extent we are at their mercy, It is similar to painting spontaneously, the colours and patterns I paint depend on whats inside of me, If I feel angry different colours come, I have little control over my conscious. Also in regards to things like wealth/relationships etc...If one is "financially lacking" because of deeply ingrained beliefs, then part of being in the wu wei maybe to investigate what kind of beliefs attract abundance, I am more and more curious of this, and will let go of any need to be right, in order to soundly investigate truth, if I take out my dog for example, I have a set path because I dont want my dog to run off in the road, if I completely let go in the park i may start spinning in circles, but when no one is around, I dont want anyone to see this so I control it somewhat when people are around, is this part of surrender too? Also I think many including myself think about compassion etc then at one point repress themselves, I dont think compassion always means let others walk all over you, or that you have to be "perfectly 100% kind without fail" maybe more of an ideal to aim towards, perhaps it happens naturally in that state of deep let go, the third chakra is the power chakra, it exists for a reason, Im not so sure about repressing this energy maybe keeping it there for awareness...

[skydog]

just shaking some thoughts

[Jeff]

 

hmmm

 

I am pondering this, I have been in the state of wu wei/surrender a few days in the past few months..Also could one call being very drunk a couple years back very similar to that state. To me it is very difficult to control extreme emotions that cloud your judgement, otherwise wed all be enlightened to some extent we are at their mercy, It is similar to painting spontaneously, the colours and patterns I paint depend on whats inside of me, If I feel angry different colours come, I have little control over my conscious. Also in regards to things like wealth/relationships etc...If one is "financially lacking" because of deeply ingrained beliefs, then part of being in the wu wei maybe to investigate what kind of beliefs attract abundance, I am more and more curious of this, and will let go of any need to be right, in order to soundly investigate truth, if I take out my dog for example, I have a set path because I dont want my dog to run off in the road, if I completely let go in the park i may start spinning in circles, but when no one is around, I dont want anyone to see this so I control it somewhat when people are around, is this part of surrender too? Also I think many including myself think about compassion etc then at one point repress themselves, I dont think compassion always means let others walk all over you, or that you have to be "perfectly 100% kind without fail" maybe more of an ideal to aim towards, perhaps it happens naturally in that state of deep let go, the third chakra is the power chakra, it exists for a reason, Im not so sure about repressing this energy maybe keeping it there for awareness...

 

You are covering quite a few topics in this post. When you say "drunk", do you mean energy bliss or do you mean more of a detachment?

 

On compassion... If you mean the compassion of a Buddha, it has nothing to do with worldly concepts like feeling sorry for someone. Other traditions will sometimes call compassion "unconditional love" or an "outpouring from the heart". It is our base/natural state and found beyond the mind. As one truly experiences "oneness" with everyone and everything, one "radiates" it. A Buddha does not let others "walk over them"; a Buddha understands the true state others percieve and in compassion does (or takes) whatever is necessary to help others understand. The compassion of a Buddha is that he/she bothers to "re-engage" in the world to help others see the confusion. Those of lesser "compassion" stay on the mountaintops.

 

[Vmarco]

"There is no wish in the Short Path man to be better than he is, no desire to improve his character or purify his mind, no sense of being obliged to rectify the distortions brought about by the ego in both thought and feeling....Ramana Maharshi was quite right. Pruning the ego of some faults will only be followed by the appearance and growth of new faults!" Paul Brunton

[thelerner]

Compassion has to be manifest, if someone talks the talk but obviously cannot yet walk the walk then it's just talk. Nothing more.

I like this. Compassion without action is a mental fart, it smells okay to us but gets little done. To help the real world, to get out of our heads, its important to do karma yoga, taking time to help others. Great thoughts and loving philosophy don't cook the rice or sooth the needy. I'm assume at the Buddha level Presence is enough, but if we're not there then imo we need to role up our sleeves, give to charity, go out of our way to help others.

[Jeff]

 

For the conversation,...perhaps we befriend the so-called subconscious, and see it as empty as everything else.

 

Certainly, a main obstacle to full-spectrum consciousness is beliefs, not only the beliefs of the conscious mind, but also the beliefs of the larger subconscious mind. All of the programming of our learning, memories, emotions, and experiences is stored in the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is the nonlogical, habit-oriented, resistant-to-change, deeper level of the individual-oriented conscious mind. Much of what we receive from outer circumstances is a reflection of what is given or projected through the subconscious. The subconsciousness alters perceptions, just as the film or celluloid medium alters the light between a bulb and the "silver screen." If your outer circumstances do not seem to match your so-called everyday consciousness, this arise from beliefs embedded in your subconscious mind.

 

...

 

The subconscious, or consciousness of inductive reasoning, perceives reality differently than does deductive reasoning, which is the mental process of ego consciousness (the tip of the iceberg). The subconscious, as has been shown repeatedly by those who study it, is easily programmed or media-ted by cultural beliefs and groupthink, but also exhibits a resistance to change. The subconscious is not inaccessible to change, but needs a profound shift in beliefs from the conscious mind. If the conscious mind affirms that "poverty consciousness" is not a viable belief, then the subconscious may have to let go of its belief in "poverty consciousness," but this shift is not automatic. Many people are governed by their subconscious beliefs, which may be at odds with the New-Age affirmations they repeat. As in the example of poverty consciousness, they may remain trapped in struggling from paycheck to paycheck, until the beliefs are abated.

 

The tip of the iceberg says, "I think, therefore I am." The purpose of full-spectrum consciousness is to shift the I am so it is before the I think, and thus to flow with the full stream of life, from the collective unconscious to the phenomenal consciousness. This requires relinquishing the perspective of an imagined individual looking outside its perceived self for connection and purpose.

 

Hi Vmarco,

 

I would agree that the subconscious is just as much our "friend" as any other aspect of mind. But, as your quotes pointed out, emptiness is about "residing in the heart" or moving beyond mind. As you described, if one has unresolved fears or issues in the subconscious (or conscious) mind, one will continually be sucked back into the mind (or ego).

 

But, as one progresses, one may access aspects of the subconscious and in essence make the part of the conscious. As an example, one may have an unconscious fear of death, but onced "faced", it can be let go (or not). The same is true with all the things in the unconscious. Something may subconsciously make one "angry", but once it is "let go", angry is dropped (gone).

 

Additionally, unconscious thoughts/processes in the subconscious tie up much of our "energy",limiting one from realizing the broader aspects of existence.