Enlightenment - the Short Way

[skydog]

I guess even overcoming fears and persistence are part of wuwei too

[GrandmasterP]

Yep sorta persevering at not persevering.

The harder we try the further away the target seems, letting it just flow n go seems to work.

That whole doing good deeds schtick for example.

Somewhere it says about giving out good....

Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,that sense of almost unconscious compassion that just flows from and with the Qi rather than from 'me'.

[Cheshire Cat]

This is not of help.

You are basically saying that compassion is a feeling which is empty... so, if we cultivate emptiness we achieve compassion.

 

Well, even anger is empty. It works in the same fashion.

 

To solve this problem, you add that there is two forms of compassion: the relative and the absolute.

To which I reply that there are two forms of Dharma: the absolute and the relative.

The absolute is that which leaves everything, even compassion.

 

In addition, another problem arises with compassion: Avalokitesvhara himself!

He is a bodhisattva, he doesn't see trough the illusion yet. He's not a Buddha. For this very reason he has compassion. This means that compassion is relative!

If you cultivate the absolute, you cannot get the relative because the absolute Dharma is that which leaves everything.

 

Many vajrayana monks went mad about this, so they decided that Avalokiteshvara is a fully realized Buddha and not a bodhisattva.

 

 

 

Perhaps compassion could be seen in terms of relative and absolute:

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Relatively, we may see compassion as feelings for sympathy and sorrow for others,...however, the Heart sutra (dictated by the Bodhisattva of Compassion) says feeling is empty,...that real or absolute compassion, is effortlessly expressed through the seeing of things as they are,...that is, as empty.

 

Thus, compassion isn't seeing through the illusion, but compassion is a consequence of seeing through the illusion.

Edited December 23, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[skydog]

plus there are certain members here who discuss being enlightened or experiences that say its happened, yet are constantly being arragant or horrible or rude, why should i consider these people enlightened that is not enlightened

[GrandmasterP]

Compassion is a verb.

By the very nature of websites we spend our time here chatting and that doesn't or shouldn't define us.

I was at the funeral of Mrs GMPs aunties husband John, a very good chap; last Wednesday, he died aged 94. Nobody at the wake spoke about what John had read or what he believed in nor how he cultivated (Gin, women and golf mostly) but everyone there seemed to have a story of how John had made some positive difference in their lives.

A job here, a helping hand there, wise advice given and acted on to good effect, paying his invoices bang on time every time so that suppliers knew they would get their money when they needed it , extending credit to firms he knew needed a bit of breathing space.

We'd not be living here now were it not for the fact that we first came to know this lovely area whilst staying as weekend guests at John's, a happy experience oft repeated until we finally made the move here.

Read and quote all the sutras you like, cultivate 'til the cows come home by all means, but without practical compassion it's all just a steaming pile of words signifying nothing lasting of any merit at all.

[Apech]

Compassion is a verb.

By the very nature of websites we spend our time here chatting and that doesn't or shouldn't define us.

I was at the funeral of Mrs GMPs aunties husband John, a very good chap; last Wednesday, he died aged 94. Nobody at the wake spoke about what John had read or what he believed in nor how he cultivated (Gin, women and golf mostly) but everyone there seemed to have a story of how John had made some positive difference in their lives.

A job here, a helping hand there, wise advice given and acted on to good effect, paying his invoices bang on time every time so that suppliers knew they would get their money when they needed it , extending credit to firms he knew needed a bit of breathing space.

We'd not be living here now were it not for the fact that we first came to know this lovely area whilst staying as weekend guests at John's, a happy experience oft repeated until we finally made the move here.

Read and quote all the sutras you like, cultivate 'til the cows come home by all means, but without practical compassion it's all just a steaming pile of words signifying nothing lasting of any merit at all.

 

Nice thoughts there GmP. and very wise.

 

I did think compassion was a noun ... in fact I still think it is ... but hey.

[GrandmasterP]

Enacted, as it should be; compassion takes the verbal form.

[Apech]

Enacted, as it should be; compassion takes the verbal form.

 

Really? Can you give me an example?

[GrandmasterP]

"Wow that was compassionate", exclaimed Mary as the vicar wiped her down.

HTH

[Apech]

"Wow that was compassionate", exclaimed Mary as the vicar wiped her down.

HTH

 

Not convinced but I've googled around and found a few people with this compassion as a verb thing and I get what they mean. It was a verb originally meaning something like 'feel-with' ... I compassion that you are happy ... or some such ... so ok.

 

I wonder if Mary should kneel so close to the Vicar next time he has an agape moment ... it would save in the laundry bill.

[GrandmasterP]

The vicar chuckled merrily as he replied....

"Think nothing of it my dear. It was indeed fortunate that I happened to be passing the village pond when you fell in".

Agape

 

"My my, such firm muscles you have Mary, do you work out"?

Leered the lascivious lector.

 

Eros

Edited December 23, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

The vicar chuckled merrily as he replied....

"Think nothing of it my dear. It was indeed fortunate that I happened to be passing the village pond when you fell in".

Agape

 

"My my, such firm muscles you have Mary, do you work out"?

Leered the lascivious lector.

 

Eros

 

There are two vicars involved ... a kind of blessed trinity ... I see.

[GrandmasterP]

Ah how we all miss our late rector the Reverend Philias Storge here in the village.

These modern gels got up in dog collars are simply not the same don't cha know!

Miss Terwithick at the Post Office told me that this new woman incumbent wears earrings in the pulpit.

The choir are up in arms about the new liturgy (Guitars!!) and letters of protest have, reportedly; already been sent to the Rural Dean.

As Miss Terwithick says....

"I should not be too surprised if there aren't several more who decamp to the Methodist Chapel before Advent is out".

Edited December 23, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

Ah how we all miss our late rector the Reverend Philias Storge here in the village.

These modern gels got up in dog collars are simply not the same don't cha know!

Miss Terwithick at the Post Office told me that this new woman incumbent wears earrings in the pulpit.

The choir are up in arms about the new liturgy (Guitars!!) and letters of protest have, reportedly; already been sent to the Rural Dean.

As Miss Terwithick says....

"I should not be too surprised if there aren't several more who decamp to the Methodist Chapel before Advent is out".

 

 

I suppose you are looking forward to the first gay marriage in the village. If you can drag yourself up to the church that is.

[OnPhourCoughee]

Is not enlightenment death, then we'll know all? So would not the short way be a bullet?

Ok, what the meaning of enlightenment to Taoists?

 

If the subject is compassion then we might go back and recall how we learned it as a kid.

By rejoicing with the happy and crying with the sad?

So, is emptiness as far as compassion goes, means being unselfish?

The most enlightened being I know then, are my dogs, they have true love.

[Vmarco]

Hi Vmarco,

 

I would agree that the subconscious is just as much our "friend" as any other aspect of mind. But, as your quotes pointed out, emptiness is about "residing in the heart" or moving beyond mind. As you described, if one has unresolved fears or issues in the subconscious (or conscious) mind, one will continually be sucked back into the mind (or ego).

 

Additionally, unconscious thoughts/processes in the subconscious tie up much of our "energy",limiting one from realizing the broader aspects of existence.

 

 

Emptiness is not necessarily "about" residing in Heart-Mind, what serveral cultures called the Higher Mind, but is a consequence of the realization of Emptiness. According the actual Masters of this subject, compassion is only concept and spectulation, and in fact impossible, without the realization of emptiness. This suggests to me that the focus should be on emptiness, not New Agey ideas about compassion.

 

As for energy,...it is as empty and impermanent as ego and relative compassion. I first came upon the nature of emptiness in 1974 by way of experiences with divided/Undivided Light.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/19803-what-is-light/

 

 

 

"The Long Path is concerned with relative matters, but the Short one is concerned with the Absolute alone...Confucius' injunction to acquire specific virtues is Long Path, whereas Lao Tzu's counsel to let the mind become empty so that Tao may enter it is the Short Path." Paul Brunton

 

In the above case, the "mind" appears related to the brain, the sense organ of thinking,...however, according to Avalokitesvara, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated."

[idiot_stimpy]

Is not enlightenment death, then we'll know all? So would not the short way be a bullet?

 

Death to the fiction and illusion maybe.

[OnPhourCoughee]

piggy back ride form a wife of a EOD who last his arms and legs

seeing eye dog, for a dog

Edited December 23, 2012 by OnPhourCoughee

[Cheshire Cat]

Edited December 23, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

 

I suppose you are looking forward to the first gay marriage in the village. If you can drag yourself up to the church that is.

.....

We celebrate diversity in these parts, always have done.

The Squire's a well respected tranny.

[GrandmasterP]

Is not enlightenment death, then we'll know all? So would not the short way be a bullet?

Ok, what the meaning of enlightenment to Taoists?

 

If the subject is compassion then we might go back and recall how we learned it as a kid.

By rejoicing with the happy and crying with the sad?

So, is emptiness as far as compassion goes, means being unselfish?

The most enlightened being I know then, are my dogs, they have true love.

.......

There is no such thing as enlightenment although some do need to believe that there is.

Progressive teachings of enlightenment which recommend methods such as meditation, self-enquiry, or the idea of recognition or surrender, are based on the belief of there being a self who can choose to do these things.

Hence dogs are wise. cocker Spaniels especially so.

Humans labour under the burden of far more illusions than do dogs.

Edited December 23, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

Death to the fiction and illusion maybe.

.....

Death is just nature's way of telling us to Slow Down.

[Jeff]

 

Emptiness is not necessarily "about" residing in Heart-Mind, what serveral cultures called the Higher Mind, but is a consequence of the realization of Emptiness. According the actual Masters of this subject, compassion is only concept and spectulation, and in fact impossible, without the realization of emptiness. This suggests to me that the focus should be on emptiness, not New Agey ideas about compassion.

 

As for energy,...it is as empty and impermanent as ego and relative compassion. I first came upon the nature of emptiness in 1974 by way of experiences with divided/Undivided Light.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/19803-what-is-light/

 

"The Long Path is concerned with relative matters, but the Short one is concerned with the Absolute alone...Confucius' injunction to acquire specific virtues is Long Path, whereas Lao Tzu's counsel to let the mind become empty so that Tao may enter it is the Short Path." Paul Brunton

 

In the above case, the "mind" appears related to the brain, the sense organ of thinking,...however, according to Avalokitesvara, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated."

 

Hi Vmarco,

 

I would agree that realizing the "heart" is not the same as realizing emptiness. Realizing the heart (or second chamber/bindu) is about the further "integration" of emptiness into daily existence. So I would also agree that, "Buddha compassion" would be after emptiness.

 

But, I do not consider compassion (or universal love) as "new agey". Describing compassion and outpourings of divine love are part of both Buddhist and Hindu traditions. They can be somewhat helpful (or fingers pointing) in describing the "realized state".

 

Also, as we have discussed in other threads, I disagree with your description of "light". It has nothing to do with the normal light of the "gross level physical senses". Perception of the true light is beyond the mind (or 6 senses) as your quote above also states. In addition, the six senses are really just the mind's interpretation of energy, so noticing energy can be a very useful tool in noticing the inherent nature of mind.

 

Finally, I would definitely agree that the "fastest" path is just realizing emptiness and residing in the light. But most have too many issues/fears/energy obstructions to simply bypass the mind.

 

Rather than your iceberg analogy, I would suggest a blackboard analogy... When looking at a blackboard, everyone reads the chalk writing and ignores that the writing is just a small subset of the blackboard. To "notice" the blackboard, one needs to spend some time clearing/erasing the board to notice that everything really happens on the blackboard (not the chalk writing).

 

 

 

[OnPhourCoughee]

Hay GrandPa P, if there's no enlightenment what's all the fuss about?

If someone were to get there, enlightened, then what would they do then?

Try to be normal? Err, or would they disappear?

[Aaron]

So, with great trepidation I enter this thread, in the hopes of shining light on the darkness that is spreading from within it. For this thread is one of misinformation, one that seems more invested in proposition and supposition than actual experience. First, I have experienced emptiness and I know what it is, that is why I can tell you, VMarco, that you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about. Second, this isn't your fault, you believe that what you have learned is the extent of what you need to know, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. Although the enlightened man (or woman) never stops learning, in fact the Hua Hu Ching tells us this, he (or she) is also content in knowing they cannot know everything. So here is my advice for those interested in enlightenment, in particular the short path, as it can be found within the Taoist tradition.

 

In the Taoist tradition, not necessarily the tradition of Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu, but the hybridized tradition that arose with the subtle acceptance of certain Buddhist doctrines, among them emptiness, attachments, and the notions of duality and non-duality, one is instructed the following...

 

"The first practice is the practice of undiscriminating virtue: take care of those who are deserving; also, and equally, take care of those who are not. When you extend your virtue in all directions without discriminating, your feet are firmly planted on the path that returns to the Tao." (Hua Hu Ching, tr. Brian Walker)

 

To further clarify the requirements and importance the following two passages are of importance...

 

"To practice virtue is to selflessly offer assistance to others, giving without limitation one's time, abilities, and possessions in service, whenever and wherever needed, without prejudice concerning the identity of those in need. If your willingness to give blessings is limited, so also is your ability to receive them. This is the subtle operation of the Tao." (Hua Hu Ching, tr. Brain Walker)

 

"The teaching of the Integral Way will go on as long as there is a Tao and someone who wishes to embody it; What is painted in these scrolls today will appear in different forms in many generations to come. These things, however, will never change: Those who wish to attain oneness must practice undiscriminating virtue. They must dissolve all ideas of duality: good and bad, beautiful and ugly, high and low. They will be obliged to abandon any mental bias born of cultural or religious belief. Indeed, they should hold their minds free of any thought which interferes with their understanding of the universe as a harmonious oneness. The beginning of these practices is the beginning of liberation." (Hua Hu Ching, tr. Brian Walker)

 

So we see that the first insight that one must achieve is not solely derived from contemplation, but also from action. If one is not able to practice virtue, indiscriminately, then they cannot achieve high virtue, and thus will be trapped within the world of duality. However, one should also be aware that any view that is extreme, that has a either or neither attitude regarding other religions and philosophies, should be questioned, for it is not a view held by the ancient Taoists and will not lead towards enlightenment, but rather towards further attachment and suffering. This is not my view, but that of the author of the Hua Hu Ching, who is said to be Lao Tzu himself.

 

Without first achieving indiscriminate virtue, enlightenment cannot be achieved. Even if one is successful in reaching a state of emptiness, they must also achieve a state of indiscriminate virtue, before they can achieve a state of immortality. This requires much work and most will not succeed in one lifetime, so if you have any questions about devotion to this, then turn back now.

 

Finally, it is within compassion that enlightenment is found, not within the boggled thought of the mind, for compassion does not reside within emptiness, but rather compassion is emptiness. Without being indiscriminately compassionate, one can never hope to achieve enlightenment. This means so long as one holds anger to any person, faction, belief, ideology, or religion, one can never achieve enlightenment. One must be free of anger, hatred, and bias.

 

As the Hua Hu Ching says...

 

"To the ordinary being, others often require tolerance. To the highly evolved being, there is no such thing as tolerance, because there is no such thing as other. She has given up all ideas of individuality and extended her goodwill without prejudice in every direction. Never hating, never resisting, never contesting, she is simply always learning and being. Loving, hating, having expectations: all these are attachments. Attachment prevents the growth of one's true being. Therefore the integral being is attached to nothing and can relate to everyone with an unstructured attitude. Because of this, her very existence benefits all things. You see, that which has form is equal to that which is without form, and that which is alive is equal to that which rests. This is the subtle truth, not a religious invention, but only those who are already highly evolved will understand this." (Hua Hu Ching, tr Brain Walker)

 

This is why I was so adamant about moral relativity and also the practicing of the three jewels, for in Taoism, Compassion, Frugality, and never striving to be first in the world, which requires one to have a tolerant and LOVING and unbiased attitude towards all things, is the only way one can achieve the highest state of virtue that is required to truly reach enlightenment.

 

Those who would speak about compassion but have hatred on their hearts are devoid of this. Those who would demean and belittle others for their beliefs do not understand this. Those who hold their heads up high, while trying to bring others low, do not recognize this. It is only he who is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of the world that will be able to achieve true enlightenment.

 

If you read what I've said before, you'll find that nothing I say contradicts what the Hua Hu Ching has said, nor does it contradict the teaching of Buddha, rather I allow others to come to their truth on their own, rather than lead them by the nose like cattle.

 

Be kind to others, love thyself, and the secrets of enlightenment will unravel before you.

 

Aaron

 

edit- P.S. I never read the Hua Hu Ching before last night, yet I've been advocating it's most basic tenants for the last few years, because I was able to uncover them through the Tao Te Ching. As I have said before, anyone who reads the Tao Te Ching can see the path to enlightenment clearly presented. As long as you practice introspection and the tenants of the three jewels, it is waiting for you, for the truth is that enlightenment already exists within each of us, we need only be made aware of it.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Aaron