Enlightenment - the Short Way

[Apech]

Well it's nice to have a bodisatva (Sp?) posting here on TTB.

Christmas is Xtian for the Xtians and prezzie-tide for some of us non-Xtians.

Most of the old churches round these parts are built on formerly pagan high sites and earthworks.

Our village church is 10th century Saxon (with any amount of bits added over the years) and there's a fine Green Man carved above the chancel. They are forever digging up far older pre Xtian bits and bobs locally.

The Xtians simply bolted their bits and bobs onto the locals existing customs and deities in order to assure continuity.

 

Happened everywhere:

 

A book "Religion in Roman Egypt - assimilation and resistance" by David Frankfurter pub Princeton Mythos ISBN 0-691-07054-7. Frankfurter is Associate Professor of History and Religious Studies at the University of New Hampshire.

In Chapter 7 of his book he describes how Christianity assimilated the pagan temples in Egypt around 300 - 500 AD. He says that despite the tendency of the Bishops to regard the pagan deities of the temples they took over as 'unclean spirits' and so on - it was not unusual for the reconsecrated temple/church to also take over the role of the temple in terms of the intervention of the supernatural in the local community. The production of charms and amulets and so on. He gives the example of the temple of Isis in Menouthis which was converted to Saints John and Cyrus in 484 AD but continued to 'advertise itself' as a centre for healing and conception. As he puts it 'One healing shrine superseded another'. He says that there were pilgrimage sites all over Egypt where people could go where on sleeping they would receive dreams relating to health and other matters including speaking to the dead. A Christianised version of a pagan practice.

He then goes on to say the following in terms of this transfer of power from pagan to Christian …

"…It is in this context of Christian idiom that all the "crossovers", the syncretisms, between Christian and native idioms occurred: Horus-Christs, Christ-Re's, the Ankh-crosses, the saints and angels and Mary images, modelled explicitly upon local images of power that still dominated the sensibilities of craftspeople, consumers, and supplicants, participants in that endless search for effective cures and protections."

[GrandmasterP]

Yep so in a way a lot of the old ideas must still be buried inside Xtianity and such.

Maybe not so many of the old ways though. They did a handy line in human sacrifice round these parts in the dim and distant. The Xtians cleaned that particular ritual practice up a bit.

Trouble is everybody and his uncle who ever writes an esoteric book claims to know what's what and quite frankly, nobody knows Eli Shit's brother Jack really.

Edited December 25, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

I couldn't agree more on the Christian thing - and my personal opinion is that if Jesus was a true historical figure he was no doubt an enlighened one, assuming that he said the things he was supposed to have said on the Sermon on the Mount. If that proves to be false, that he wasn't an actual figure, then to me it doesn't really matter who said to be 'in the world but not of it' - that seems to be the common thread of the thoughts of a master of any tradition. It boils down to understanding that this is of our mind, that this seeming reality is a type of illusion, and that to find that which we seek it seems to involve an inner journey; to realize that we are all but actors on a stage, playing a part (maybe we can attribute that one to Elvis); to realize that in the end run there is only one Authority on any of these ideas, regardless of the tradition; the ultimate voice is within us all and equally accessible by all, assuming one is willing to search.

[GrandmasterP]

Best I read was years ago back in the Medina Osho ashram's (what passed for a..) library, by one of those Gnostic sorts, Samael Weor I think it was; had Mr. Jesus studying to become an adept in Egypt during his formative years of which the Bible is silent then they faked the crucifixion and he ended his years over in Kashmir.

I've visited his alleged tomb in Srinagar but could not recommend that as a tourist destination at present.

Lovely place that it is, the lake especially; sadly the locals are a tad anti-westerner for some reason of late.

Edited December 25, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

Maybe not so many of the old ways though. They did a handy line in human sacrifice round these parts in the dim and distant. The Xtians cleaned that particular ritual practice up a bit.

 

 

And the funny thing that the Tao, viewing us all as straw dogs anyway, wouldn't care one bit if they practiced human sacrifices. The only caveat would be that those prone to sacrificing others would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. We're all one entity and those who caused the sacrifices would only be killing themselves in some cosmic way; that being their mindset, they wouldn't be capable of total alignment with the cosmic powers that be.

 

if in fact that was what they were looking for.

Edited December 26, 2012 by manitou

[GrandmasterP]

Something to do with crop fertility seems to be the current idea but nobody knows for sure cos they weren't there.

Guarantee though that at the edge of every human sacrifice audience there was some guy with a tray selling snacks and souvenirs.

[thelerner]

Happy Christmas Vmarco buddy.

May 2013 bring you all and more that you wish for yourself.

Well that was provocative. You know Vmarco is wrapped in giant buttons aching to be pressed. What next? Vmarco I named my new pit bull puppy after you? I hope you have a pleasant holiday?

Edited December 26, 2012 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

Well that was provocative. You know Vmarco is wrapped in giant buttons aching to be pressed. What next? Vmarco I named my new pit bull puppy after you? I hope you have a pleasant holiday?

 

Yes thelerner, I did have the impression that you were of the inconsiderate-of-others sort that would own a pit bull. Very glad you named it after me,....perhaps you'll think of your inconsiderateness to others everytime you call it.

 

 

"All the joy the world contains

Has come through wishing happiness for others.

All the misery the world contains

Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself." Shantideva

 

 

What you misinterpret as "aching giant buttons" are simple impersonal windows of light,...Real Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces. Chögyam Trungpa

 

Inconsiderate people, like owners of vicious breeds, machine guns, and Tea Party literature, love provoking posts and spoiling threads (see top post). Congratulations! Your soul-essence has shown itself to be void of any meaningful contribution to anything but your own faith-based agenda.

 

Lao-zu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things..." Spoilers care only to to spoil,...even those who lips pronounce a "devotion to the truth." Spoilers have no clue what truth is,...if they did, they would not be spoilers.

 

That concludes my involvement with this thread.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

That concludes my involvement with this thread.

Well, it (the thread) did accomplish some things as it did include a couple good discussion as well as soem good Q & A.

 

May the Force be with you.

[Stosh]

Interesting , I thought he said somewhere

his own point was dissolution which sounds like a spoiling act to me.

 

The saving grace of compassion is discretion.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Honestly!

One bodhisatva turns up, a real one by his own account and just look what happens?

We drive him away.

For shame!

[三江源]

If a bhodisattva is not polite or easy to get along with... but we know we will be awakened by receiving his treatment without growling and snapping at his ankles.. what do we do with our growl reflex?

[GrandmasterP]

Somebody once said that if Jesus were to turn up and ask to speak at a modern Christian conclave they'd probably not let him.

Trouble with prophets in general is that the closer to the truth they are maybe the less folk want to listen to them.

The sorts who get on are maybe those who tell people what they want to hear.

Real Bodhisattvas though, they are a pretty altruistic bunch by all accounts.

[三江源]

Real Bodhisattvas though, they are a pretty altruistic bunch by all accounts.

 

I have heard this too!

 

 

How do we recognize them?

[GrandmasterP]

By their fruits?

[三江源]

That is a good answer. Thanks, yes.

 

If we know them by their fruits, they are familiar fruits we resonate with.. .. its a verification and we can feel a comfort in that.

 

If their fruits are not fruits we have ever seen before and they look gnarly and peculiar.. we might look at those unfamiliar fruits and reckon they could be poisonous.

[Apech]

I have heard this too!

 

 

How do we recognize them?

 

We recognise the true Bodhisattva ... as fire is recognised by smoke and water by the ducks upon it. Gampopa quote.

[GrandmasterP]

So they are both hot and wet then?

[三江源]

We recognise the true Bodhisattva ... as fire is recognised by smoke and water by the ducks upon it. Gampopa quote.

 

So is contextual. Which would mean, in practice... ?

[三江源]

So they are both hot and wet then?

the fire under the water has to be present or no cooking occurs

[Apech]

Found exact quote:

 

The family of wise bodhisattvas

Can be recognized by its signs

Just as fire is known by its smoke

And water is known by water birds.

 

In that case, what kinds of marks are there? Their bodies and speech are naturally gentle without dependence on a remedy. Their minds are less deceitful, and have loving-kindness and clarity toward sentient beings. Thus, the Ten Noble Bhumis Sutra says:

 

No harshness or arrogance,

Avoiding all deceit and cunning,

Having a clear, loving attitude toward all sentient beings—

This is a bodhisattva.

[thelerner]

Yes thelerner, I did have the impression that you were of the inconsiderate-of-others sort that would own a pit bull. Very glad you named it after me,....perhaps you'll think of your inconsiderateness to others everytime you call it.

Inconsiderate people, like owners of vicious breeds, machine guns, and Tea Party literature, love provoking posts and spoiling threads (see top post).

Yo, I was joking. No pit bull and I drowned my last 3 cats <joking only 2 of them> <bazinga, I don't drown cats>. The humor is that you you'll launch into a long rant at the drop of word like Christmas, Hope, Pitt Bull etc., I apologize for spoiling this thread, though it may be redeemable and I will gladly step away from it. You also tend to disrail topics some times.

 

my apologies if it was in poor taste.

I hope this Christmas you can excuse my pitiful bull.

Sincerely

Michael

Edited December 27, 2012 by thelerner

[Apech]

the fire under the water has to be present or no cooking occurs

 

You recognise the presence of fire by means of smoke ... and water by the birds congregating on it ... in other words you look for the signs in their behaviour. Like gentleness and kindness ... lacking any deceit ... and so on.

 

Its from the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa ... the classic Dagpo Kagyu text.

[三江源]

tea party literature.

 

what a lovely idea. little stories about jellies and cucumber sandwiches.

 

Inconsiderate people, like owners of vicious breeds, machine guns, and Tea Party literature, love provoking posts and spoiling threads

[三江源]

You recognise the presence of fire by means of smoke ... and water by the birds congregating on it ... in other words you look for the signs in their behaviour. Like gentleness and kindness ... lacking any deceit ... and so on.

 

Its from the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa ... the classic Dagpo Kagyu text.

 

Yes. thankyou for quoting that.

 

are there bhodisattvas which dont give off smoke? the type that have the action of a bhodisattva due to the way that we receive them, purely?

 

the bhodisattva being in the eye of the beholder, as it were.