Tonal & Nagual

[Seth Ananda]

This is typical of New Age thinking,...support and sustain sentience at all cost. Sentience is not an "unfathomable mystery",...according to Prajnaparamita it's a delusion.

 

The Bodhisattva of Compassion said, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Why would Avalokitesvara say such a thing if Seth Ananda's concept that sentient beings should be content in their illusory world as sentient beings?

 

Naguals and Nagas are a fun distraction,...did so myself in the 70's, and even read Casteneda's later works, along with those of his supporting cast. However,...why are Naguals/Nagas enemies of the Garudas.

http://keithdowman.net/books/fg.htm

 

How impeccable are Naguals? Likely very much in a relative sense,...but can the relative ever be truly impeccable? Is not an Impeccable Sentient Being an oxymoron? Sentience is a delusion. How can a delusion be meaningful?

 

My first realization of the nature of light came on Nagal Peak in 1974,....should I have stopped there? Should I have dedicated my life to the voice of the Nagual? Or should one go Further?

 

As most have no interest in truth realization,...they become tethered to belief systems. However, no belief is true.

Lol you can parrot beliefs all you want.

 

I am not interested in that.

 

But when thought ceases and Silent Knowing dawns one discovers the universe is Alive, and Conscious...

 

There is a reason why every ancient culture was Animistic. They experienced the world this way.

 

In fact it is very surprising to them that we do not, and that all we seem to do is 'think' in a way that is totally centred in our craniums.

Anthropologists have reported the look of surprise on native faces when they have heard us say the mind is centred in the head. When asked where they think it is, they put their hand over the heart.

 

Heart mind which you love to espouse theories and beliefs about, is inherently relational, and is native to us when we have not been turned into isolated thinking machines...

 

But one must be willing to feel, to feel oneself open into the world, and to be willing to relate deeply with everything.

 

That requires dropping into the silence.

 

Nothing new age about.

[Vmarco]

Lol you can parrot beliefs all you want.

 

Heart mind which you love to espouse theories and beliefs about, is inherently relational, and is native to us when we have not been turned into isolated thinking machines...

 

 

Yes, you are quite apt at parroting. And your posts are proof that you have yet to access the Heart of Essence.

 

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" Taranatha

 

If ever you accept the Perception of the Profound (see Heart Sutra), I'll be available for your apology.

[Seth Ananda]

Yes, you are quite apt at parroting. And your posts are proof that you have yet to access the Heart of Essence.

Ok lol, who am I parroting? Do you see a list of quotes? I am describing my experience of the world.

Just saying someone is parroting does not make it true vmarco.

 

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" Taranatha

 

If ever you accept the Perception of the Profound (see Heart Sutra), I'll be available for your apology.

This thread is about the Tonal and the Nagual.

Why are you PARROTING {yes, copying and pasting is actual parroting Vmarco } Buddhist quotes in it?

[C T]

 

Why are you PARROTING {yes, copying and pasting is actual parroting Vmarco } Buddhist quotes in it?

 

Because s/he is a free-thought buddhist? And, a freeeee-thinking buddhist (yes, singular) has no obligation to discuss things in context. Heck, even to discuss is beyond the norm, when the premise remains something like this..."You spoiler, me bodhisattva, me dont come and go, whereas you dont know when to stop...." + + and so it goes, on and on. How droning...

[Vmarco]

Ok lol, who am I parroting? Do you see a list of quotes? I am describing my experience of the world.

Just saying someone is parroting does not make it true vmarco.

 

 

This thread is about the Tonal and the Nagual.

Why are you PARROTING {yes, copying and pasting is actual parroting Vmarco } Buddhist quotes in it?

 

You're parroting your same old beliefs. I fully agree however,...that Spoilers like yourself saying someone is parroting is a personal truth of yours. C&P is only parroting in your dream perception. For those interested in the subject, that is, non-Spoilers, quotes bring a broader view from other sources that may have spent a lifetime observing something.

 

Those like yourself and CowTow, are pretty much lost causes living in an illusory sentient dream world,...delaring how your empirical knowledge is superior to everyone else,...getting upset if anyone wishes to go beyond the sciential mind. Delusion likes company.

 

Actually, at one time, considered your veils much thinner than CowTow's. Yet you continue to refuse refuge in any possible truth. That is how folks like yourself may eventually uncover truth, by looking at such as a possibility,...at which point. you reduce everything,...squeeze out the fiction so-to-say,...until you arrive at something that is true.

 

In Buddhism, which yourself and CowTow understand little about, beyond what you were indoctrinated to believe, is a process of prajnaparamita, or perfection of prajna. Prajna has nothing to do with the accumulated knowledge you enjoy flaunting,...it doesn't arise from the 6 senses. I fully understanding why it doesn't arise from the 6 senses, however, enjoying quoting others, like the Eight foremost Bodhisattvas, to accentuate the discussion,...only to it ridiculed as parroting,...a truth suppressing tactic of sentient beings.

 

I've been to Ixtlan many times,...sat in the plaza looking at auras. Never met Don Juan, but connected with others interested in truth realization. Didn't set out to spend time in Ixtlan,...it was merely the half-way point between my home in Playa los Meurtes and the great shopping at Guadalajara. The book was OK,...frankly, I found the Art of Dreaming the most rewarding,...of course, the other books needed to be grasped first.

 

No surprise about your familiarity with the Casteneda books,...as a whole I don't recall the word love ever being mentioned.

 

I am puzzled by your comments on Don Miguell Ruiz,...especially cultivating impeccability. I've seen no impeccability in your recent attacks on me, in now three different treads. Although I did observe much fear and suffering, and an attempt to suppress the dialogue,...instead of pursuing any semblance of impeccability.

[Seth Ananda]

So are you still on subject Vmarco? As I recall this is still the tonal and the Nagual thread, not Buddhist discussion...

 

And you are right on one point. I like to share my experiences and insights with others. You can call that parroting beliefs if you like, but I like to converse about what happens when the inner dialogue shuts off and Silent Knowing emerges. I think that is useful for people, and it is interesting to me.

 

And unlike yourself, i actually reach people, because I share, rather than talking down to them.

 

As for attacking you well, i think you are dangerous. not in the flattering way you might take it, as in dangerous to peoples beliefs, but as in actually dangerous. When I attack your posts I am attacking the thick cloud of beliefs you plaster over the top of some good information.

 

You are trying to batter peoples heads into thinking like you. I think all people need is to learn how to become silent, to the point where non-conceptual knowledge can emerge. Then they can see for themselves.

 

You seem to think people need to believe that beliefs are bad, and to believe that the sensory world is Illusory, and that they have to believe that the phenomenal neither comes nor goes...

 

They do not.

 

They merely need to discover that silence and see for themselves, first hand what they 'Know' or do not 'Know' within that place...

 

And to get back on track, that is why I love subjects on the Tonal and the Nagual.

 

The tonal is the known. All beliefs, all knowledge, the Heart Sutra... all the Tonal.

 

The Nagual is what floats around that and is what is heard when the Tonal shuts up...

[3bob]

I could understand vmarco or anyone else including myself acting like an asshole once in while but he is acting like one 95% of the time... which is as plain as day or as a kettle being black.

Edited December 28, 2012 by 3bob

[3bob]

I just don't see how humility is reached without self-realization, which is only gotten by going within. And without humility, we have nothing but hot air".

 

A key question/point and fine post Manitou -

 

I'd say Solomon (for an example) had it all but he to was broken... and it may only be at the breaking point when our identity as a particular talking-head or "mind" loses some of its iron grip and that soul can then come through or act - with soul in its essence being honest and such honesty is the true sister of a humility that can surrender to something greater than ego, as in the joyful knowing and being of free Spirit! (and not always or only in a matter of work over a period of time for such can also be a very sudden and honest reckoning along with an all out gathering together of our forces to stand before the inner storm and make a leap of faith beyond the supposed safety of a cocoon we've wrapped ourselves in.

[manitou]

 

No surprise about your familiarity with the Casteneda books,...as a whole I don't recall the word love ever being mentioned.

 

 

 

don Juan would not refer to it as Love, he referred to it as the path with heart.

[Vmarco]

I could understand vmarco or anyone else including myself acting like an asshole once in while but he is acting like one 95% of the time... which is as plain as day or as a kettle being black.

 

Is that encouraging,...that you see roughly 5% of my discussion as non-threating to your ego. What I see is way too much work,...besides, it is obvious that you're playing into Seth Anandas sagittarian belief delusions,...that is, forever expanding towards an almost satisfaction.

[3bob]

"I'll be available" to see you get off it...

Edited December 28, 2012 by 3bob

[manitou]

 

 

- with soul in its essence being honest and such honesty is the true sister of a humility that can surrender to something greater than ego,

 

 

 

This is the essence of a truly recovering person.

Edited December 28, 2012 by manitou

[Seth Ananda]

Don Yuan said that to a Sorcerer, Love was a topic too important for words. Hence not much said, till Casteneda gets further revelations about it being of the Upmost importance from the tenant, in the art of dreaming...

[Vmarco]

with soul in its essence being honest and such honesty is the true sister of a humility that can surrender to something greater than ego

 

The first step to honesty is letting go of beliefs. As someone said, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

The belief that there is no honesty without humility is absurd. As Wie Wu Wie said, "humility is just a degree of pride."

 

Personally, I would not trust a humble person as far as I could spit. There is something deviously dishonest about humble people. Nevertheless, the Sheeple have been indoctrinated to view humble folks in an admirable way,...and thus have been swayed by dishonesty to follow dishonesty to sustain ego. Humility can never rise above ego,...for humility is ego.

 

"A Bodhisattva does not take pride in his/her work to save others, nor is their compassion calculated or contrived. They practise sincere compassion that comes from deep within, without any sense of ego or gain." diamond sutra. For Sheeple, not taking pride equals humility,....however, that is not the pridelessness of a Bodhisattva. For example, a Mahasattva neither hopes or fear,....one cannot keep hope and disspell fear. To not have one, means the other no longer is. Pride and humility are to extremes of the same delusion.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Vmarco

[Jox]

What are the methods to delete/clear personal history?

[3bob]

Personal history is to be mastered thus not deleted per-se for one still has to deal with the world if one has a body in the world. (both in this world and on the other side)

[Seth Ananda]

We have a natural sense of when something {a past experience or some issue} is finished business or not.

Anything that is not finished is an energy leakage. That means your history is draining you.

 

Some might say that there are energy cords connecting you to anyone that you still have issues with.

Some describe an Issue as being like an unfinished circle that leaks, until you make things right, thus closing the circle.

 

People have used all kinds of things to fix their personal history.

I personally like the Toltec inventory processes that Don Miguel uses, in four agreements companion book, and that some of his students use in books like The complete Idiots guide to Toltec wisdom, banish mind spam, The Toltec Way..

 

Also I am very fond of the Huna processes like Ho'o'pono'pono {not the jo vitale nonsense} but they are fairly new to me... they seem great at clearing 'stuff' so far...

 

Forgiveness...

 

Also that series, 'My name is Earl' represents a great way. apologise to everyone that you consider you have wronged. And ask them what you can do to make amends.

 

Recapitulation, often gets described with some lengthy processes, such as overnight burials, but I think there are easier ways to start, which I have listed, that don't need to be as hard core. I personally got a lot out of my burial, but less in the way of clearing personal history, and more in the way of my relationship with mother Earth.

 

be well

[Birch]

The 'best' method I've found is in looking at it (personal history) square in the face.

[GrandmasterP]

Even the bad stuff can turn out to be positive later on.

Even if it's only along the lines of...

" No way am I ever doing THAT again. Not after last time".

Everybody has regrets, we all have some bad shit in our pasts, trick is not to let it feck up the present.

[doc benway]

Funny how nobody ever wants to talk about cleaning up one's energy or history. Too much work, maybe? An admission that we're needing a little inner work? This is just never talked about on this forum. I've brought this up from time to time and folks pass over it like it's just not there.

 

As far as i can see (and having worked the 12 steps for 31 years) the inner 'work' of trying to find my own character defects (although I know there are some who will challenge the word 'defects') is the singularly most important part of attaining any clarity at all. It's by wringing ourselves out andd tring our best to remove those characteristics that impede vision - selfishnesses, arrogances, mean-spiritedness, the urge to undermine another to gain stature for self ---there are so many subtle things we do to separate ourselves from Others - generally because we need to feel elevated because down deep inside we know we're deficient.

 

Although this flies in the face of the Taoist concept of 'All That Is' is just fine as it is, this is true as well. But when our minds and heart are motivated to remove impediments to joining up with the Oneness, the only way to do this is to inspect our inner selves. Maybe all the folks on this forum have already done this, and it's so basic to them that it's not even worth mentioning. But I sort of think lots of folks on this forum haven't done any self-examination at all.

 

We come to knowledge, it seems, by first aassuming it's gotten through the brain. We read, we listen, and once we compile a little knowledge the darn Ego kicks in and we become legends in our own minds. Once we see ourselves as a teacher of sorts, more often than not the mind shuts to receiving knowledge from another. this is my natural state; my Ego will sit up on its high chair and think it's running the show and how very blessed the world is to have my wisdom in it. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't really. But what I can do is see that for what it is, merely Ego, and take the steps necessary to sidestep it, to tame it, to put it in its place. However, I do need it to keep from driving into oncoming traffic.

 

As we all have on this forum, I've read accounts of master after master who has only gotten to their place in life by a combination of the outer search and the inner search. They must work in concert, apparently. What a nearly impossible set-up this is for us! It's a real Catch-22, this path to the full monty. apparently it's all in the Balance between Knowing and Humility (which is what we are capable of obtaining if the inner work is done).

 

I just don't see how humility is reached without self-realization, which is only gotten by going within. And without humility, we have nothing but hot air.

I've spent so much time and energy working on who I am, what I do, my relationships with those in my life, my relationship with myself. Such a big fucking beautiful mess.

Years of scrutiny, adjustment, learning to take responsibility, then learning to forgive myself, then learning to forgive others.

To be honest, I'm still working on those last two.

When you can empty yourself of all that, and it's very quiet, then you can hear the truth.

And it's so quiet and elusive but one day it just shouts so loudly that the echo is there forever.

Painful work and so liberating.

Great post Barb

_/\_

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Forgiveness...

 

 

I find this to be a big one. It's ironic how we think "I can't forgive that person, I deserve better than to just let them get away with it. The least I can do is project negative energy at them rather than let it bounce around inside." Of course by carrying this around we only increase our ego-shell and can't connect to the infinite, so we don't even do ourselves any favours by not letting those things go.

 

At the same time, I wouldn't discount that some people need to learn how to expect respect. There is a balance though, between expecting respect, and not taking it personally. I think this relates to being impeccable. And all of this relates to cultivating the strength and autonomy needed to walk one's path.

[Vmarco]

The 'best' method I've found is in looking at it (personal history) square in the face.

 

Yes,....observe everything that gives you an emotional charge,...be it a color, fragrance, a personality, sound, thought, etc. Lumatrons are great for quickly disturbing core issues and engrams so they can be viewed,...did a few hundred hours myself in the 90's

http://www.wellness-innovations.com/lighttherapy.pdf

[Vmarco]

I find this to be a big one. It's ironic how we think "I can't forgive that person, I deserve better than to just let them get away with it. The least I can do is project negative energy at them rather than let it bounce around inside." Of course by carrying this around we only increase our ego-shell and can't connect to the infinite, so we don't even do ourselves any favours by not letting those things go.

 

At the same time, I wouldn't discount that some people need to learn how to expect respect. There is a balance though, between expecting respect, and not taking it personally. I think this relates to being impeccable. And all of this relates to cultivating the strength and autonomy needed to walk one's path.

 

IMO, any expectation reduces impeccability. This is a tough one for sentient beings,...yet, until all hope (expectation) is dissolved, awakening is at best, unlikely. Unfortunately, we live in a hope-based world,...all the Abrahamic religions advocate it.

 

Don't expect respect from anyone,...it will just keep you asleep.

[Vmarco]

I've spent so much time and energy working on who I am, what I do, my relationships with those in my life, my relationship with myself.

_/\_

 

In actuality, it is impossible to understand "Who you are", until you realize When you are. I'm in no way suggesting that you believe that,...beliefs will simply keep you in an ego trap. I said it is impossible,...find out if that is true. Do you understand how to uncover truth? Here's a helpful Youtube:

[Seth Ananda]

Please consider staying on topic Vmarco.

 

This thread is about the Tonal and the Nagual, from the Toltec tradition.