Tonal & Nagual

[Jox]

...

Edited December 29, 2012 by Jox

[doc benway]

In actuality, it is impossible to understand "Who you are", until you realize When you are. I'm in no way suggesting that you believe that,...beliefs will simply keep you in an ego trap. I said it is impossible,...find out if that is true. Do you understand how to uncover truth? Here's a helpful Youtube:

 

Thanks for your concern regarding my practice and progress.

 

In the context of manitou's post, the "who I am" I am referring to in my reply is the mundane "me." The one who lives in the mitote, hurts other people, enters into relationships, has problems, desires, expectations, and all of that.

I believe manitou's point is that, in order to approach the deeper question of "who (when) am I," we must first dig through our story, really turn the light of awareness on the darkness of ourselves and come to understand and eventually accept, and then let go of all of that. Once that work is done, we can open up from there. I've been doing this work for about a decade.

Until that work is done, it will be repressed and will eventually come up later.

PS I also believe that this work is an important part of living impeccably, living as a warrior in the Toltec tradition.

Edited December 29, 2012 by steve

[Vmarco]

Please consider staying on topic Vmarco.

 

This thread is about the Tonal and the Nagual, from the Toltec tradition.

 

Your analness is understandable,...however, you should consider that my posts are on-topic,...that the subject of Tonal and Nagual go deeper than your limited object-ive view. In other words, if you for instance had a modicum of impeccability, your posts would not belch what they do. An impeccable person would not seek to discredit another out of vengence, as you do,...but dissect the message for the benefit others. This post is Tonal and Nagual in that it addresses what Tonal and Nagual is not,...that is, what the you that you think you are believes to be Tonal and Nagual.

 

Tonal is synonymous with the relative. Most believe there are relative truths, yet where is this true, except in the relative, which is not true. A tonal person can be compared to Gurdjieff's Man #1,...a fully sentient being, obscured from reality. A nagual apprentice would be akin to Man #3,....one who uses that which is tonal to escape the prison of sentience.

 

As Avalokitesvara said, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated."

 

Seth Ananda should focus more (see post #7 by Steve) on impeccability, and understanding at one sense organ, rather than his committment to ad homineming VMarco.

[3bob]

I could be wrong, maybe make that 96.5 %

Edited December 29, 2012 by 3bob

[Vmarco]

Thanks for your concern regarding my practice and progress.

 

In the context of manitou's post, the "who I am" I am referring to in my reply is the mundane "me." The one who lives in the mitote, hurts other people, enters into relationships, has problems, desires, expectations, and all of that.

I believe manitou's point is that, in order to approach the deeper question of "who (when) am I," we must first dig through our story, really turn the light of awareness on the darkness of ourselves and come to understand and eventually accept, and then let go of all of that. Once that work is done, we can open up from there. I've been doing this work for about a decade.

Until that work is done, it will be repressed and will eventually come up later.

PS I also believe that this work is an important part of living impeccably, living as a warrior in the Toltec tradition.

 

There is an underlying conflicting message above,...a desire for impeccability, and a desire to honor beliefs,...two incompatable quests. Belief believes, by way of erronous tonal-based senses, that there is a work to be done in a certain sequence,...as if Tonal can actually "act" or "do" anything. The so-called work of the Tonal is never done, because it never began,...the Tonal cannot act,...it reacts,...like Seth Ananda.

 

What you need is an impeccable Ally,...to work on your imagined repressed history that is obscuring the uncovering of impeccability. What would such an impeccable Ally look like?

 

As most, I had been reared to be false,...to be led by an imagined ego-self, which covers our core essence with layers of beliefs, predispositions, and imitations. In so doing, our authentic, impeccable selves are concealed, repressed, and obfuscated. We cannot, if we chance upon a wish to awaken, deny these layers, for to deny them is to affirm them. To resist them is to assist them. We must nonetheless devise a method for removing these gathered garments that obscure our light and keep the truth of us from being gnown. I was already in my thirties before initiating the process of shedding them.

 

This method of unveiling my light came by way of the art of trapping. I had so many beliefs, and realized that I could not honestly say what an "I am" was. Indeed, by then, I had conscioiusly experienced changeless, undivided light, for example during my 1974 conscious death experience and in a continuum of other effortlessly realized happenings through the years. As such, I no longer had much fear of being present in the presence of my presence, and as such I did not hesitate to establish within myself a trapper, that is, a surrogate I am who would work unfailingly to peel back the layers of ego’s beliefs.

 

Whereas energy is a force that seeks union with undivided light, ego is a force that strives to conceal light. The ego force begets personalities and subpersonalities for each belief, memory, and thought with which we identify. These myriad personalities have their own identity or I; what G. I. Gurdjieff called "little i’s." An ordinary, object-ive-orientated person believes that he or she is one I, a single self whose life pivots upon a complete personality, instead of a fragmented personality. Consider the last time someone asked you or you asked someone to do something and either you or they forgot. Did you or they really forget, or is forgetfulness just an example of one personality or "little i" not telling another "i" or group of allied i’s to accomplish a task? Suppose I ask someone to meet me at noon, and that person agrees. However, if that person doesn’t leave a memo with the personality that needs to be active to show up at noon, there is a perception of "Oh, I forgot." Only fragmented personalities forget. The trapper, in the course of its art, exposes the various ego-selves, little i’s and fragmented personalities. This employed surrogate ultimately oversees all thoughts, feelings, and mechanical impulses.

 

Hunting beliefs and the little i’s associated with them, even for those who have progressed in their continuum of awakenings, is often a slow process that gives the i’s, through ego’s force, time to align and ally with other beliefs for their protection. Hunting beliefs is similar to pursuing guinea fowl. If one is disciplined enough to remain vigilant and see a personality group, then when that personality group is approached, the flock leaves the least of its own as a sacrifice, while the others move out of the way, out of the line of fire, thus protecting the core belief of that group. Trapping, however, is a twenty-four-hour-a-day unimpeded art that can catch whole flocks of beliefs before they become aware of a threat to their falsity.

 

Trapping is a refined art, an exacting science, and an auspicious tool to manage the human condition by delving into all aspects of our inner and outer environment. The inherent nature of a trapper is to be keen and undivided in its task to locate and harvest beliefs. The trapper understands that it is only a surrogate I, not a "real I," and therein lies its effectiveness. The sensory-driven beliefs, memories, and anticipations of ego are its quarry. As such, the trapper quickly realizes that both the intellect, that is, the sciential mind, and the body are undependable, as long as the ego-self governs body and mind to sustain itself. When the ego-self is sufficiently transcended through the surrogate’s work, the undivided self or thoughtless I am is uncovered. There is still thinking, but the thinking, as the ego, becomes an ally of the undivided self.

 

At that level of transcendence or disrobing of the beliefs of the ego-self, duality is more readily seen as one thing cyclically relating with itself, the outbreath and inbreath, negative and positive, that and this, of the illusory reality of oneness. Cold moist yin compresses. That compression warms into heated yang, which then expands back into cold. Nonetheless, this integral, moving, Tao-like cycle is not an expression of wholeness, but a one-based activity around the whole. When we become present in our form, the reflection of source, which is around the whole, reveals for us an understanding of the whole. The way to the whole is by letting go of division, nor by attempting to unify it. Unification of positives and negatives is a human-centric delusion. The Mahasiddhas never advocated oneness or a fraternity of opposites; they said that ego attachments, such as oneness, conceal enlightenment. Duality is an illusion, not two lost halves of a whole.

 

The surrogate I is not looking for cause in the positive–negative electrodynamic universal pulse. Instead, it encourages the stilling of the body’s neural networks to reduce the electric influences on perception. Cause is a perceptual manifestation of the ego-self through a stimulated sciential intellect that views objects as outside itself. Electroencephalgraphic studies with freethought-type meditators have shown that reduced activity in the parietal lobes encourages a liberation from duality’s Tonal reality by decreasing identification with object-ivity’s boundaries. What the surrogate observes from a thymos- or heart-centered orientation is the effects of cause. Through that orientation, presence is revealed, not nothing or every "thing," but wholeness, where nothing unreal exists. At this arrival, perhaps even sooner, the surrogate I dissolves. For at the threshold of absolute presence, reality is realized, and consequently, the authentic I am is uncovered. The surrogate has completed its job. Presence transcends the Greek concept of a one-based, natural number belief system, which the Greeks used to find solutions to all their questions. For those in Aristotelian times, like many of today’s self-proclaimed priests of science, even the mention of absolute presence incures ostracism. Look what the Greeks did to Hippasus in the fifth century BCE for expounding on irrational numbers: they killed him.

[Apech]

@Vmarco ... you make some interesting points but I always stop reading when the font changes because you have cut and pasted a large section of text. You could at least put it in quotes and cite the source ... even if it is your own work. Thanks.

[manitou]

The trapping that VMarco's post refers to sounds like it's identical to don Juan's 'tracking'. It seems to be a phenomena of the moment; as though this is the attitude we should adapt at this moment and carry it forward from this point on.

 

But by going through the motions of looking to our past behavior is a real shortcut. Please recall that in the Castaneda books, don Juan had Carlos do a 'recapitulation of his life'. I never understood why Castaneda didn't go more into detail on this point in his books; but if you look carefully you can see it mentioned several times over a several-book period of time. It took Carlos years to recapitulate his life, according to him. Don Juan had him do essentially the same thing that the 12 steps of recovery do - look for your past screw-ups, make the apologies necessary, try to clean up your life so that the inner dynamics are no longer contorted by hate, resentment, selfishness.

 

To answer a previous question on this thread, this process can be done voluntarily or involuntarily. It doesn't have to be a big metaphysical head trip. An easy way is to list all the character defects you can think of, and then assume that you have all of them. Then it's just a question of discovering to what degree they are there. Or....google a copy of the 12 steps to recovery, modify mention of the word 'God' to whatever makes you comfortable, and substitute the word 'life' for 'alcohol'. In other words, "I'm powerless over life, and my life is unmanageable" (this wouldn't be true to the same degree as one just coming off an alcohol or drug addiction, but you get the idea). After that first step, the other 11 complete the process.

 

That particular process is tried and true and has worked for countless people to change their lives completely. It certainly did mine. But there's lots of ways to start the digging. It's just that that one is already set up.

[Vmarco]

@Vmarco ... you make some interesting points but I always stop reading when the font changes because you have cut and pasted a large section of text. You could at least put it in quotes and cite the source ... even if it is your own work. Thanks.

 

Sorry about that,...whenever I don't quote a source, it is mine. The following, C&Ped from above, is copyrighted to VMarco, from a 2007 book,...although actually written, for the most part, in the 1980's.

 

"As most, I had been reared to be false,...to be led by an imagined ego-self, which covers our core essence with layers of beliefs, predispositions, and imitations. In so doing, our authentic, impeccable selves are concealed, repressed, and obfuscated. We cannot, if we chance upon a wish to awaken, deny these layers, for to deny them is to affirm them. To resist them is to assist them. We must nonetheless devise a method for removing these gathered garments that obscure our light and keep the truth of us from being gnown. I was already in my thirties before initiating the process of shedding them.

 

This method of unveiling my light came by way of the art of trapping. I had so many beliefs, and realized that I could not honestly say what an "I am" was. Indeed, by then, I had conscioiusly experienced changeless, undivided light, for example during my 1974 conscious death experience and in a continuum of other effortlessly realized happenings through the years. As such, I no longer had much fear of being present in the presence of my presence, and as such I did not hesitate to establish within myself a trapper, that is, a surrogate I am who would work unfailingly to peel back the layers of ego’s beliefs.

 

Whereas energy is a force that seeks union with undivided light, ego is a force that strives to conceal light. The ego force begets personalities and subpersonalities for each belief, memory, and thought with which we identify. These myriad personalities have their own identity or I; what G. I. Gurdjieff called "little i’s." An ordinary, object-ive-orientated person believes that he or she is one I, a single self whose life pivots upon a complete personality, instead of a fragmented personality. Consider the last time someone asked you or you asked someone to do something and either you or they forgot. Did you or they really forget, or is forgetfulness just an example of one personality or "little i" not telling another "i" or group of allied i’s to accomplish a task? Suppose I ask someone to meet me at noon, and that person agrees. However, if that person doesn’t leave a memo with the personality that needs to be active to show up at noon, there is a perception of "Oh, I forgot." Only fragmented personalities forget. The trapper, in the course of its art, exposes the various ego-selves, little i’s and fragmented personalities. This employed surrogate ultimately oversees all thoughts, feelings, and mechanical impulses.

 

Hunting beliefs and the little i’s associated with them, even for those who have progressed in their continuum of awakenings, is often a slow process that gives the i’s, through ego’s force, time to align and ally with other beliefs for their protection. Hunting beliefs is similar to pursuing guinea fowl. If one is disciplined enough to remain vigilant and see a personality group, then when that personality group is approached, the flock leaves the least of its own as a sacrifice, while the others move out of the way, out of the line of fire, thus protecting the core belief of that group. Trapping, however, is a twenty-four-hour-a-day unimpeded art that can catch whole flocks of beliefs before they become aware of a threat to their falsity.

 

Trapping is a refined art, an exacting science, and an auspicious tool to manage the human condition by delving into all aspects of our inner and outer environment. The inherent nature of a trapper is to be keen and undivided in its task to locate and harvest beliefs. The trapper understands that it is only a surrogate I, not a "real I," and therein lies its effectiveness. The sensory-driven beliefs, memories, and anticipations of ego are its quarry. As such, the trapper quickly realizes that both the intellect, that is, the sciential mind, and the body are undependable, as long as the ego-self governs body and mind to sustain itself. When the ego-self is sufficiently transcended through the surrogate’s work, the undivided self or thoughtless I am is uncovered. There is still thinking, but the thinking, as the ego, becomes an ally of the undivided self.

 

At that level of transcendence or disrobing of the beliefs of the ego-self, duality is more readily seen as one thing cyclically relating with itself, the outbreath and inbreath, negative and positive, that and this, of the illusory reality of oneness. Cold moist yin compresses. That compression warms into heated yang, which then expands back into cold. Nonetheless, this integral, moving, Tao-like cycle is not an expression of wholeness, but a one-based activity around the whole. When we become present in our form, the reflection of source, which is around the whole, reveals for us an understanding of the whole. The way to the whole is by letting go of division, nor by attempting to unify it. Unification of positives and negatives is a human-centric delusion. The Mahasiddhas never advocated oneness or a fraternity of opposites; they said that ego attachments, such as oneness, conceal enlightenment. Duality is an illusion, not two lost halves of a whole.

 

The surrogate I is not looking for cause in the positive–negative electrodynamic universal pulse. Instead, it encourages the stilling of the body’s neural networks to reduce the electric influences on perception. Cause is a perceptual manifestation of the ego-self through a stimulated sciential intellect that views objects as outside itself. Electroencephalgraphic studies with freethought-type meditators have shown that reduced activity in the parietal lobes encourages a liberation from duality’s Tonal reality by decreasing identification with object-ivity’s boundaries. What the surrogate observes from a thymos- or heart-centered orientation is the effects of cause. Through that orientation, presence is revealed, not nothing or every "thing," but wholeness, where nothing unreal exists. At this arrival, perhaps even sooner, the surrogate I dissolves. For at the threshold of absolute presence, reality is realized, and consequently, the authentic I am is uncovered. The surrogate has completed its job. Presence transcends the Greek concept of a one-based, natural number belief system, which the Greeks used to find solutions to all their questions. For those in Aristotelian times, like many of today’s self-proclaimed priests of science, even the mention of absolute presence incures ostracism. Look what the Greeks did to Hippasus in the fifth century BCE for expounding on irrational numbers: they killed him." VMarco, 2007

[Apech]

@vmarco ... your book ... what is its title?

[Vmarco]

 

But by going through the motions of looking to our past behavior is a real shortcut. Please recall that in the Castaneda books, don Juan had Carlos do a 'recapitulation of his life'.

 

Recapitulation is an awesome experience. However, keep in mind, on the Short Path it is fully unnecessary, as karma has no foundation in reality. And yet, for slow realizers like myself, it took years of attentive and intentive observation, including surrender and recapitualtion, to uncover it.

[Vmarco]

@vmarco ... your book ... what is its title?

 

Books! The above was from Full Spectrum Consciousness,...Putting the I Am before the i think.

http://www.amazon.com/Full-Spectrum-Consciousness-J-V-Marco/dp/1425118240/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356808262&sr=1-1&keywords=full+spectrum+consciousness

 

Several had said that FSC is easier to comprehend by first reading Exploring Freethought Magick

http://www.amazon.com/MC-sup2-%253c-Exploring-Freethought/dp/1425136486/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356808345&sr=1-1&keywords=exploring+freethought+magick

 

However, I'm so not in the mainstream that I'd recommend books like Karl Brunnholzl The Heart Attack Sutra,...

Hua Hu Ching,...or Russell's New Concept of the Universe, etc.

[3bob]

Personally, I would not trust a humble person as far as I could spit. There is something deviously dishonest about humble people. Nevertheless, the Sheeple have been indoctrinated to view humble folks in an admirable way,...and thus have been swayed by dishonesty to follow dishonesty to sustain ego. Humility can never rise above ego,...for humility is ego.

 

Words and spit (by his own account) from an expert. (as implied by his own account) Imo such unfortunate sickness can be seen in samples of posts when or if people fall into the not uncommon misuse of "4th way" teachings which turn same into a cult like mind set. Mix in some other co-opted and misused esoteric stuff and such dangerous views can justify proclaiming most anyone to be a "Sheeple" when they don't bend to or agree with an often resulting obsessive and fanatical program.

Edited December 30, 2012 by 3bob

[GrandmasterP]

I'm not keen on the whole Sheeple idea as I understand it's been presented.

There's a sort of implicit 'Sheeple are lesser beings than some unspecified higher sorts', and that can't be right.

 

[3bob]

Agreed GP.

[doc benway]

 

 

What you need is an impeccable Ally,...to work on your imagined repressed history that is obscuring the uncovering of impeccability. What would such an impeccable Ally look like?

 

Be careful. The idea that I need an impeccable Ally is also a belief...

The very idea that impeccability is essential or even beneficial is a story (belief system) in and of itself.

The idea that anything is needed, that there is a benefit to become something other than what already is... and all of that jazz.

But I do agree with much of your narrative.

[Seth Ananda]

Your analness is understandable,...however, you should consider that my posts are on-topic,...that the subject of Tonal and Nagual go deeper than your limited object-ive view. In other words, if you for instance had a modicum of impeccability, your posts would not belch what they do.

What, discussing the actual thread?

 

An impeccable person would not seek to discredit another out of vengence, as you do,...but dissect the message for the benefit others. This post is Tonal and Nagual in that it addresses what Tonal and Nagual is not,...that is, what the you that you think you are believes to be Tonal and Nagual.

An Impeccable person would not be acting so hurt at someones disagreement with their theories.

An Impeccable person would not falsely assume that some one is feeling vengeance towards them. I feel no vengance towards you. I attempt to challenge your posts, because you write as if you are the absolute authority, which you are not.

And that is obvious to anyone who reads your hurt responces to all us 'lunkheads' who are just not smart enough to accept your lofty pronouncements, and absolutist tone.

 

Our disagreement hurts you because you are full of Ego and personal History, despite the fact you think that the short path has freed you from these things.

Ego has survival as its number one priority and it get defensive and aggressive when its Ideas are challenged.

That pretty much sums you up Vmarco. You have almost no capacity for conversation that includes disagreement, without turning Haughty and mean.

Personal History, means things of the past can and do affect you. As you aptly demonstrate over and over again. They dont just affect you, they have power over you. Hence the fact that you 'react' to how you see other peoples Ideas in relation to your own.

 

Tonal is synonymous with the relative. Most believe there are relative truths, yet where is this true, except in the relative, which is not true.

Here you are totally off topic. this is not a Toltec teaching, this is a vmarco/short path teaching. The Toltec do not make the Tonal 'unreal' and no matter how far they go within the Nagual, the Tonal remains.

 

the Tonal is the Known. It is ever increasing in size as the Silent Knowing of the Nagual, continually brings back Information which becomes conceptual and adds to the Tonal.

 

 

A tonal person can be compared to Gurdjieff's Man #1,...a fully sentient being, obscured from reality. A nagual apprentice would be akin to Man #3,....one who uses that which is tonal to escape the prison of sentience.

 

As Avalokitesvara said, "As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated."

 

Seth Ananda should focus more (see post #7 by Steve) on impeccability, and understanding at one sense organ, rather than his committment to ad homineming VMarco.

Stretching Toltec teachings outside their parameters to fit your short path, does not equate with staying on topic.

 

What it does equate with is you trying to turn every thread into a short path teaching.

[Seth Ananda]

Recapitulation is an awesome experience. However, keep in mind, on the Short Path it is fully unnecessary, as karma has no foundation in reality. And yet, for slow realizers like myself, it took years of attentive and intentive observation, including surrender and recapitualtion, to uncover it.

Rubbish!

You are thoroughly in need of recapitulation. You are totally caught up in reaction to others, hurt feelings and all the other drama you believe your self to be free of...

 

You sound like the average neo advaitin who spends their life arguing and reacting while bitterly hanging on to the theory that they dont need any personal work, because they realised that they are 'beyond' personal...

[Jetsun]

I did about 6 months of recapitulation, I even made myself a box to sit in to do it, god knows what my family must have thought of me at that time. I can't say it particularly cleared my personal history, but I think most energy work will more or less do the same thing as you become mindful and a little more detached you bring old reactions and energies into the present which clears your past.

 

On a basic level working with the Tonal and Nagual I consider it pretty much the same thing as working with your masculine/feminine sides, working with the right and left brain, logical/artistic. Tonal can be worked on in your outer day to day life of work and relationships, while Nagual can can be worked with through dreams, visions, connecting with your intuition. There are plenty of dream yoga type practices available these days

[Vmarco]

Be careful. The idea that I need an impeccable Ally is also a belief...

The very idea that impeccability is essential or even beneficial is a story (belief system) in and of itself.

The idea that anything is needed, that there is a benefit to become something other than what already is... and all of that jazz.

But I do agree with much of your narrative.

 

Your point is taken,...a bit of a tricky subject, this need stuff. Bodhisattva respond to the need for sentient beings to be liberated,...but do they really need liberation? What if Tea Party fascists gained an even harsher control over people,...there would be no need for liberation at all.

 

Do we need the awareness to identify the false as the false,...or would it be better the believe facts are stupid things?

 

I see belief as that which denies, disconnects, suppresses, disempowers, etc. To me, the need for an impeccable ally would be defined as a belief,...but more as a tool to unravel belief,...a belief assassin.

 

My "trapper" arose from experiences particular to me,...yet wouldn't deny that many years working with Fourth Way personalities were important to the research. Fourth Way, as in the book In Search of the Miraculous.

[manitou]

Recapitulation is an awesome experience. However, keep in mind, on the Short Path it is fully unnecessary, as karma has no foundation in reality. And yet, for slow realizers like myself, it took years of attentive and intentive observation, including surrender and recapitualtion, to uncover it.

 

Not following you here. Years of attentive and intentive observation is the Short Path? The 12 steps took about 2 weeks, and then you continue working one of the steps ad infinitum. I'm not sure your path is shorter......it is certainly headier.

[Vmarco]

Not following you here. Years of attentive and intentive observation is the Short Path? The 12 steps took about 2 weeks, and then you continue working one of the steps ad infinitum. I'm not sure your path is shorter......it is certainly headier.

 

That's an ego perception,...the Short Path is not cerebral. What many espouse to be Heart-centered is not,..theirs is an appeasing, moderating, coddling aspect of the head and "feel-good" sentience. Heart-Mind consciousness appears heady to sentient beings because of the non-belief driven vocabulary of the Heart-centric. It is a vocabulary of honesty, which is quite frightening to heady people. An example would the the mass-murderer Paul of Tarsus, who refashioned gnowledge, that he could not comprehend, into a religion knowledge-based religion.

 

As for the 12 Steps,...this is a touchy subject for Long Pathers, and all 12 Steppers are Long Pathers. I call it the delusion of Positive-Negativism,...a nasty cerebral trap. 9 out of 12 of the steps are direct lies, while the other 3 cannot be honestly accomplished due to the falsity of the rest. The 12 Steps are typical of Long Path belief systems.

 

The Short Path takes note of the falsity of everything it comes in contact with,...its goal is that of full truth realization. Paul Brunton's Notebook can be helpful if you're interested in the differences between the Long Path and Short Path. Pre-14th Century Kagyu, which means the Fourth Stream or Way, is a Short Path.

 

Another Fourth Way School is associated with GI Gurdjieff; who although flexible and evolving in his teaching, most followers of the so-called Gurdjieff/Ouspensky work believe that the Fourth Way cannot be communicated accurately outside of a recognized Gurdjieff Foundation school. Thus today's Fourth Way is a closed, inner orthodoxy, more about the preferences and practices of its followers than the transmission of Gurdjieff's ideas, like replacing inner considering with external considering. The Foundation however, through affairs such as the therapeutic society cheapening the meaning of the enneagram, created a narrow-minded fellowship to stem further dilution. But that action has also attracted an inflexible, unevolving, canonical membership. That might not be so bad, except that P.D. Ouspensky's unenlightened, intellectual philosophy often overrides Gurdjieff's intent. That is to say, Ouspensky never got it. Which is why Gurdjieff decided on teaching self-remembering and the wisdom of the Fourth Way through movements. And Ouspensky ran.

 

Gurdjieff students Orage and Nott, did not think that Ouspensky "got it". Surely, by Gurdjieff's own admission, Ouspensky "miraculously" had it intellectually correct, but he did not understand the true nature of the Fourth Way.

　

 

In a nutshell,...Tilopa realized Mahanirvana Tantra when the seed that he was grinding revealed to him the inverse flow of forward moving things, thereby actualizing liberation in one lifetime, the fourth stream of mastery. He called this fourth way Kagyu, the Short Path of Vajra. The teachings of the lineages of Tilopa, especially those of the Kagyudpas Red Hats, bear much similarity to the teachings of the twentieth-century mystic G. I. Gurdjieff. The Fourth Way, by his own admission, was imparted to Gurdjieff in Central Asia, where lamasteries taught the Fourth Stream through mahamudras or teachings of self-remembering. Like the mahamudras, Gurdjieff’s intent (not to be confused with P. D. Ouspensky’s philosophy) was a Fourth Way that taught what is not the way. Gurdjieff himself purportedly said that he once wore the red robes, indicating more than a mere short stay with the "bees" who gathered and preserved the honey of wisdom. Thus the Fourth Way is a Western lineage of Tilopa’s transmission, one overlaid with Middle Eastern Sufi influences of Gurdjieff’s youth. Many who seek wisdom, like Gurdjieff, understand that like bees, nectar is gathered from many flowers.

 

Experience born of belief can only be experienced through the condition of that belief,...thus, how many people actually ever have an authentic experience?

 

If one wants to discuss law, they learn the language of law,...if astrology, then the language of astrology,...if medicine or botony, then the language of medine or botony,

 

But for some reason, people think they can engage in an intelligible conversation about Heart-Mind without even the basics of the language of Heart-Mind,...when in truth, the language of Heart-Mind is even more specific than law, astrology, medicine and botony combined, because such a discussion is foreign to the accumulated knowledge of mundane experience.

[三江源]

an impeccable ally.

 

really useful articulation, thankyou for that.

 

the misunderstandings arrive over what is impeccability. I'm heartened by the quote that VMarco uses about truth being something about which it is not possible to disagree.

 

When we reach that place of truth.. there are no more shades of grey ...'its a grey area' we say when we mean it is subject to interpretation, dependant on angle of observer.. in fact that is a state of divergence because it is in only partial relationship to the truth, or The Truth.

 

Thankyou VMarco also for writing about truth.

 

 

'my truth'.. 'your truth'.. are realtive truths and therefore not actual 'truth' at all.. some other word would be more accurate.. 'my limited perception, such as it is'... might be the way to describe..

 

I would like to learn the language of the heart mind.

[GrandmasterP]

Impeccable ally

'Critical friend' maybe?

[三江源]

Impeccable ally

'Critical friend' maybe?

 

no.

 

impeccable ally.

[GrandmasterP]

Edited December 30, 2012 by GrandmasterP