Tonal & Nagual

[idiot_stimpy]

impeccable ally - awareness separated from thought

[GrandmasterP]

OIC

This sorta thing....

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Open-Secret-by-Tony-Parson.pdf

Edited December 30, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

"Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or

bad, but thinking makes it so."

 

The Bard.

[GrandmasterP]

.

Edited December 30, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

.

 

I would say immaculate but I can see a spot.

[manitou]

But for some reason, people think they can engage in an intelligible conversation about Heart-Mind without even the basics of the language of Heart-Mind,...when in truth, the language of Heart-Mind is even more specific than law, astrology, medicine and botony combined, because such a discussion is foreign to the accumulated knowledge of mundane experience.

 

Perhaps you're right about all this. I don't understand your language because I haven't read your book, that is true. And I probably am delusional and remain in continual delusion because I am a long pather. It's entirely possible.

 

Just seems like yours is not a joyous proposition. And way too many words....as us old alkies say as we sit around those dusty rooms balancing a cup of coffee on our knees: "You just don't have what I want."

 

See you elsewhere,

 

Manitou

Edited December 30, 2012 by manitou

[Seth Ananda]

an impeccable ally.

 

really useful articulation, thankyou for that.

 

the misunderstandings arrive over what is impeccability. I'm heartened by the quote that VMarco uses about truth being something about which it is not possible to disagree.

In the Toltec path, Silent Knowing is the only real 'Truth'. It is always true all the time. And it is utterly nonconceptual.

To me it has similarities to the statement that the Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao.

 

Also Impeccable means living in a way that there is no energy expenditure, as there is no personal history. Thus no drama.

 

Your a mod, so please stay on thread topic, and not encourage these totally irrelevant ramblings into Vmarcos personal belief synthesis... Liking vmarco personally does not excuse you from ignoring your job as a mod here.

 

When we reach that place of truth.. there are no more shades of grey ...'its a grey area' we say when we mean it is subject to interpretation, dependant on angle of observer.. in fact that is a state of divergence because it is in only partial relationship to the truth, or The Truth.

 

Thankyou VMarco also for writing about truth.

 

 

'my truth'.. 'your truth'.. are realtive truths and therefore not actual 'truth' at all.. some other word would be more accurate.. 'my limited perception, such as it is'... might be the way to describe..

 

I would like to learn the language of the heart mind.

I think you know it much better that Vmarco.

He has tons of 'ideas' all pasted together. He embodies none of it. Its purely conceptual.

In Silence all this fades away...

[Seth Ananda]

Oops yes unnecessary is exactly what I meant.

[doc benway]

Speaking of impeccable allies, I have been blessed with a best friend who is a shaman and the most impeccable human being I've ever met. My practice has been headed in that direction for several years now.

[宁]

To be impecable is the opposite of being half-assed.

At the same time, IME it's not a pushy attitude towards life, of always seeking perfection. I associated it too many times with perfection, which is not, it completeness. To make things complete. Little circles, bigger circles... don't start anything you can't complete, break it down in smaller parts, make smaller circles.

 

If you put the concept “path with the heart" together with doing things in a complete way (impecability), and clearing up personal history, you see that they are complementary:

- if you follow your path with the heart, you will never attempt doing things that you are not that much into or interested (everyday life example: a job that you hate), and if doing something you like, you'll do it in a way that will make you enjoy every little bit of it;

- if you like what you do, others will probably be happy with it also;

- completing things in your life will make pending issues no longer a problem

 

When CC and DJ had the conversations from Journey to Ixtlan, modern society was already speeding up, but not so much as it is today. What is lacking today, because of speed, is quality, this is why quality is a cherished commodity.

[三江源]

In the Toltec path, Silent Knowing is the only real 'Truth'. It is always true all the time. And it is utterly nonconceptual.

To me it has similarities to the statement that the Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao.

 

Also Impeccable means living in a way that there is no energy expenditure, as there is no personal history. Thus no drama.

h

Your a mod, No I'm afraid you have this quite wrong. I am not a mod. I help moderate the board. so please stay on thread topic, what? an impeccable ally is nothing to do with tonal and nagual? how do you figure that out?! and not encourage these totally irrelevant ramblings they are that to you. they are not that to me. that is your judgment, nothing more. into Vmarcos personal belief synthesis... hmmm. a good topic of discussion for the board as a whole.. are we interested in one anothers personal belief synthesis or not? Liking vmarco personally does not excuse you from ignoring your job as a mod here. Did you ask me if i like VMarco personally, or did you make an assumption based on entirely your own fantasy? Did you ask me if I am ignoring my 'job'? Or did you make another assumption?

 

 

I think you know it much better that Vmarco. I am not here to compare. It is not your 'job' to do that for me.

He has tons of 'ideas' all pasted together. He embodies none of it. Its purely conceptual.

In Silence all this fades away... You experience that about VMarco, I do not. As i see it, it is my reponsibility to glean what I can from what others say. That is why I am here, to learn, and contribute.

 

BTW as a reminder for everyone, bullying is against forum rules. Hectoring is too.

[GrandmasterP]

Poor Hector

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=I_tVxvnEJko&hl=en-GB&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fgl%3DGB%26hl%3Den-GB%26v%3DI_tVxvnEJko&gl=GB

[C T]

Gleaning...

 

Good word.

 

Waste collection is big business nowadays. Everyone's molded into becoming very conscious of proper filth management.

 

Seth Ananda would not be an exception to this, i think.

 

Good to know what is to be discarded, and what to retain.

[三江源]

Gleaning...

 

Good word.

 

Waste collection is big business nowadays. Everyone's molded into becoming very conscious of proper filth management.

 

Seth Ananda would not be an exception to this, i think.

 

Good to know what is to be discarded, and what to retain.

 

How do you discard CT? What does your practice tell you about how to discard?

[deci belle]

In the Toltec path, Silent Knowing is the only real 'Truth'. It is always true all the time. And it is utterly nonconceptual.

To me it has similarities to the statement that the Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao.

 

Um …similar? Duh!!

 

There is no difference. Reality is not by a country. Mind is one.

 

You say truth; I say reality. Same.

 

The nagual is unknowability.

 

The tonal is anything you can name.

 

It sure must be entertaining to talk on and on about this stuff!!

[Vmarco]

Perhaps you're right about all this. I don't understand your language because I haven't read your book, that is true. And I probably am delusional and remain in continual delusion because I am a long pather. It's entirely possible.

 

Just seems like yours is not a joyous proposition. And way too many words....as us old alkies say as we sit around those dusty rooms balancing a cup of coffee on our knees: "You just don't have what I want."

 

See you elsewhere,

 

Manitou

 

You don't have to read my books to access the Language of the Heart. The Heart Sutra points the way,...get beyond the emptiness of your sentient beingness.

 

Uncover a single truth,...and you will certainly be aware of what the Language of the Heart (Higher Mind) is, and not is. The Language of the Heart pivots upon the why things are,...which is not the way sentient beings want things to be.

 

The first Turn of the Wheel of Dharma occurred when Buddha stated, in essense, that suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are. EVERYTHING viewed by the 6 senses are other than the way things are.

 

Understandably, the Chief Feature, or what people like best about themselves, is their sentient beingness. Just read Seth Ananda's post,...he advocates complete sentient beingness. Yet, both the Buddhism and Daoism of Sakyamuni and Lao-zu says the opposite.

 

All you require to understand that Sakyamuni and Lao-zu spoke the truth, is to uncover a single truth. Doesn't matter if it's "there is no present in time," or another,...simply reduce something down to truth. And then, my posts will come alive as it were, for you,...Heart Joy,...not an imagined cerebral joy.

[konchog uma]

lmao, thats so true! ive run into that alot on here. ppls believs and how they mean more than truth. and may be the reason ppl havent reached the heights of meditation and energy that most wish to!

 

one who speaks does not know

 

one who knows does not speak

[C T]

How do you discard CT? What does your practice tell you about how to discard?

 

I would hope that spiritual cultivation gradually increases one acute discriminatory wisdom, or, intuitive insight becoming more refined as one progresses. Otherwise, it becomes an exercise of vanity.

 

Everyone can intuit and discern to various degrees. Exercising this is the 'how'. Deep listening to the hidden 'scripts', the nuances become clearer. Endeavors in mindful alertness is one way to hone this ability. Doing the horse stance... hmm, may be, too, but cant say for sure.

 

As for the exact practice, its a very individual thing. We all have different maps and various factors influence how we read them. And then, some maps are more readable than others, not because they are clearer, but the unreadable ones are simply that - unreadable.

 

When someone comes along and proclaim that traditional maps are useless (implying that they are all based on the past), it should raise some sort of flag, more so when such someone is also attempting to show nothing more than another map, albeit disguised as one more radically savant than the others.

 

Apologies if more than necessary was said in reply.

[Tibetan_Ice]

one who speaks does not know

 

one who knows does not speak

 

And when someone who knows speaks, it is understand by all, each in their own way, regardless of their mother tongue.

 

[3bob]

as long as we are bouncing all over various maps and morphing here and there:

 

Tao Te Ching 24:

 

"ONE on tip-toe cannot stand.

One astride cannot walk.

One who displays himself does not shine.

One who justifies himself has no glory.

One who boasts of his own ability has no merit.

One who parades his own success will not endure.

In Tao these things are called "unwanted food and

extraneous growths,"

Which are loathed by all things.

Hence, a man of Tao does not set his heart upon them"

 

49:

"THE Sage has no interests of his own,

But takes the interests of the people as his own.

He is kind to the kind;

He is also kind to the unkind:

For Virtue is kind.

He is faithful to the faithful;

He is also faithful to the unfaithful:

For Virtue is faithful...."

 

(This is part of what true humility under wisdom means to me)

 

"He is kind to the kind;

He is also kind to the unkind:

For Virtue is kind"

Edited December 31, 2012 by 3bob

[Vmarco]

one who speaks does not know

 

one who knows does not speak

 

Actually, that is Those Who Know Do Not Gnow.

[宁]

Actually, that is Those Who Know Do Not Gnow.

 

You told him, didn'cha, indeed you did...

Happy, aren'cha, weeelll... you sure showed them... good boy...

 

What was the name of the last buddhist we kicked out of here? He amounted to huge posting, managed to get everyone pissed off, and then he went of on his merry way. The ignore function, oh, where is the ignore function.

[GrandmasterP]

Gnostics gnow gnothing

but gnats and gnus do.

[Vmarco]

You told him, didn'cha, indeed you did...

Happy, aren'cha, weeelll... you sure showed them... good boy...

 

What was the name of the last buddhist we kicked out of here? He amounted to huge posting, managed to get everyone pissed off, and then he went of on his merry way. The ignore function, oh, where is the ignore function.

 

What a sour, knowledge-driven post; void of any meaning contribution. Yes,...please use "ignore function."

 

When 5th Century BCE Greeks spoke of Higher Mind, they used the word Thymos, and pointed to what is called the Heart chakra at the chest,....as for Lower Mind, it was called Psyche, and arose from the grey-goo in the head.

 

'Gnothi Seauton', as inscribed over the portico of the Temple at Delphi, means Gnow Thyself, not Know Thyself. In other words, those who say they know, most likely do not Gnow. Some cultures like the Egyptian and Maya of Mesoamerica, thought so lowly of the brain, or sciential mind, that before burials it was sucked out and discarded, whereas the heart was treasured.

 

Today’s scientially and sentient minded may think such a philosophy as primitive, but keep in mind that the Egyptians for example were quite aware of the brain. Evidence clearly shows that the Egyptians had an intimate knowledge of brain functions, for instance that the left cerebral hemisphere controls the right side of the body. As was the case with the Tantrika and Vajrayana in Asia, and the Maya of Mesoamerica, Egyptians seemed to have been aware that the brain is the vessel for the lowest consciousness, whereas from the heart arose the highest consciousness. Ancient cultures appear to have discarded the brain because they had a higher awareness of self, a non-ego self, that has been quite veiled in the contemporary cultures of the last few millennium.

 

Knowledge proceeds through what Buddha called the five skandhas or Aggregates, which includes sensual perceptions and conditioned experience by way of the psyche or personal consciousness. To know is to comprehend noologically, through intellect-based thought.

 

Gnowledge is to understand through metasensory awareness and unconditioned experience through the thymos or impersonal consciousness. To gnow is to understand by way of gnosis or Right Discernment.

 

Gnowledge, Prajna, Bodhi, and Tao are feminine nouns. Although wisdom is said to be a feminine (Yin) noun, the word, as defined, only points to the masculine (Yang),..wisdom literally means knowledge accumulated through philosophic or scientific learning. Knowledge is fully masculine (Yang). Knowledge is of, and fully dedicated to, the skandhas (form, senses, perception, thinking, and the knowledge of that thinking). Thinking is always (irrefutably) in the past.

 

If you reduce knowledge to its lowest common denominator, knowledge is always in the past. It arises from the skandhas, and can only be part of the skandhas. Gnowledge on the other hand, arises from the present,...although it is not itself the present.

 

For an example,...Know god, no peace; Gnow peace, no god.

[konchog uma]

@peaceful: quite so

 

@vmarco: if your posts are addressed to me, you should be advised not to put too much effort into them. i don't read them. thanks

Edited January 1, 2013 by anamatva