Tonal & Nagual

[Apech]

....

 

Today’s scientially and sentient minded may think such a philosophy as primitive, but keep in mind that the Egyptians for example were quite aware of the brain. Evidence clearly shows that the Egyptians had an intimate knowledge of brain functions, for instance that the left cerebral hemisphere controls the right side of the body. As was the case with the Tantrika and Vajrayana in Asia, and the Maya of Mesoamerica, Egyptians seemed to have been aware that the brain is the vessel for the lowest consciousness, whereas from the heart arose the highest consciousness. Ancient cultures appear to have discarded the brain because they had a higher awareness of self, a non-ego self, that has been quite veiled in the contemporary cultures of the last few millennium.

 

....

 

This is correct. The Egyptians also through cranial surgery knew how to care and protect the brain, diseases such as epilepsy were understood ... so they did know about the physiological importance of the brain. And they did not value it as an organ in the funerary cult ... as well as the heart which was usually retained in the body cavity ... they paid special attention to the liver, lungs, stomach and intestines which were protected by deities.

 

The heart was the centre of mind, character and volition ... its quality was what made you the person you were and it was the heart which was weighed in the hall of judgement. They also viewed it as the mother of the person ... a famous text says 'my heart my mother' ... thought some Egyptologists translate this as "my heart of my mother" ... which makes no sense since it was their own heart the Egyptians were addressing.

 

The heart was often protected by or sometimes replaced by an amulet of a scarab beetle ... sacred to a form of the sun god Khepera whose name means "to be, to evolve, to transform" ... Khepera unlocks the key of time in the sacred Zep Tepi or First Time ... of which every moment is a recapitulation. The power to transform and evolve was considered essential in the second phase of the Book of the Dead when the deceased says that he will perform all the transformation which his heart is pleased with.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Apech

[Seth Ananda]

BTW as a reminder for everyone, bullying is against forum rules. Hectoring is too.

Are you adressing this to me Cat? All I have been doing is asking Vmarco to stay on track. I really dont think he needs his Mod/semimod friends flexing their muscles for him... And I am sure favouritism is an abuse of mod/semimod position.

 

How come I never see you step in and ask him personally to stop being so condecending to anyone who dares to disagree with him? But I do see you 'liking' his posts often enough...

 

what? an impeccable ally is nothing to do with tonal and nagual? how do you figure that out?!

You are kidding right?

Turning up at a mechanics convention and claiming an orange is a car radiator, is not talking Mechanics.

 

Vmarco has said nothing about Ally's that in any way relates to Toltec understanding of what an Ally is. All he has done is picked a word from Toltec tradition, and turned it into Vmarco short path...

 

And you are here as a semimod defending that?

 

So it is ok to hijack threads, if you, Cat, semi mod, like the directon it goes in?

 

Did you ask me if i like VMarco personally, or did you make an assumption based on entirely your own fantasy? Did you ask me if I am ignoring my 'job'? Or did you make another assumption?

 

Well I do remember you PMing me demanding that I give Vmarco an easier time.

 

That was in the epic thread where Vmarco actually conceded a point!

It took several days to get him to consider that maybe the way one group of Hindu's use the Word Brahman could be different to the way another group uses it...

 

3 Days... +

 

The reason he was {and is} so afraid to think, is he has wholesale bought a set of Ideas, and then convinced himself that they are 'not' beliefs...

Those Ideas are his Vmarco shortpath Ideas.

They hang massively on his particular interpretation of certain aspects of Buddhist thought.

 

Because he see's himself as being one of the few true understanders of Buddhism, and because Buddha taught against Brahman, he was terrified to even go near the Idea that some advaitin concepts of Brahman are of timeless unmoving uncreating presence, free from coming and going, as that is how he see's his undivided light.

 

-For a belief Monkey that is just not allowed-

 

I got through to him in that thread on just one tiny point. I have not seen that happen again. He is the most ossofied stubborn poster this forum has ever had. Even VJH could communicate.

 

And you stepped in to Nanny me with your PM. For trying to force some degree of clear thinking and honesty.

 

 

Please reread this thread, from the view point of Toltec subject matter, and look for the Bullying you claim, and include Vmarcos posts in that scrutiny...

[3bob]

Hmm, I to was semi mod-ed by Cat thinking I was being full mod-ed...

 

Is such normal according to our full mods or semi mods whoever they may be? (granted I had some of it coming but normally I'm a good boy)

 

Anyway, imo those that enjoy hearing Vmarco's repetitive and various forms of insults to just about anyone at anytime and also let such slide or encourage same should get their (his) own sub-forum. (or private room)

Edited January 2, 2013 by 3bob

[konchog uma]

i think that warrants a separate area of the pit 3bob

 

great idea

[三江源]

There is a team of moderators here on this board.

 

I am not the only moderator team member to have posted in this thread.

 

This thread is under discussion in the moderator area.

 

It takes time, with moderators in different countries, and over a holiday period, for reports to be processed.

 

Perhaps you dont realise these things. Now you know.

 

Interesting thread.

[三江源]

Hmm, I to was semi mod-ed by Cat thinking I was being full mod-ed...

 

Is such normal according to our full mods or semi mods whoever they may be? (granted I had some of it coming but normally I'm a good boy)

 

Anyway, imo those that enjoy hearing Vmarco's repetitive forms of insults to just about anyone at anytime and also let such slide or encourage same should get your own sub-forum. (or rant room)

 

Its nice now that you understand how moderation works on this board. There are no professional mods here, no paid mods, no trained mods.. it doesnt work that way at all. The board works on the basis of co - operation and minimal moderation, ideally. Sean also didnt appoint bouncers.

The solution here to coping with posters that one finds too difficult to read without getting activated / reactive/ hostile is of course to attempt friendly dialogue if you feel so inclined,or to put their posts on 'ignore'. Its actually pretty standard forum rules, I think.

Sub forums are for topics, only.

[Vmarco]

The heart was the centre of mind, character and volition ... its quality was what made you the person you were and it was the heart which was weighed in the hall of judgement. They also viewed it as the mother of the person ... a famous text says 'my heart my mother' ... thought some Egyptologists translate this as "my heart of my mother" ... which makes no sense since it was their own heart the Egyptians were addressing.

 

The heart was often protected by or sometimes replaced by an amulet of a scarab beetle ... sacred to a form of the sun god Khepera whose name means "to be, to evolve, to transform" ... Khepera unlocks the key of time in the sacred Zep Tepi or First Time ... of which every moment is a recapitulation. The power to transform and evolve was considered essential in the second phase of the Book of the Dead when the deceased says that he will perform all the transformation which his heart is pleased with.

 

These are very important points when attempting to discern what those Heart-centered cultures were about.

 

A few extra points,...1. the Heart-Mind or Higher Consciousness was not (necessarily) the heart organ. Greeks and others associated it with the thymus gland. 2. The Heart-Mind or Higher Consciousness discussed in some branches of Buddhism, is not part of the 5 skandhas, which would include the 6 organs, such as the brain or organ of thinking.

 

For some, the Highter Mind or Heart was only accessible by means beyond the 6 senses or human sentience.

 

Even Lao-zu described the Heart as the seat of Spiritual Insight.

 

A problem today however, is that so many cerebral-centric belief systems have adopted a head-based heart model.

[Seth Ananda]

The solution here to coping with posters that one finds too difficult to read without getting activated / reactive/ hostile is of course to attempt friendly dialogue if you feel so inclined,or to put their posts on 'ignore'.

Actually that is near impossible with Vmarco.

I tried numerous times to have friendly dialogue with him, but he quite literally will not be civil to someone who disagrees with him.

 

The only time we have had a friendly set of exchanges is when I was 'agreeing' with him.

 

Despite what he says about not being Interested in the Teacher/student roles, he will only be civil towards others who are allowing him to fill the teacher position. ~ Him teaching/helping them ~

 

Anyone can go back and look at any number of exchanges between nearly anyone and Vmarco, and the posts will speak for themselves.

 

Friendly Vmarco = Vmarco as teacher, espousing his perfect worldview.

 

Unfriendly Vmarco = Vmarco being challenged or disagreed with. This precipitates lengthy cut and paste responses and descriptions of the disagree'r as an ignorant primate barely worth talking about.

 

 

Despite the fact that you keep trying to get people to be nice to Vmarco, maybe you should seriously try to get Vmarco to be nice to others...

 

Some of the nicest people on this forum have copped a ton of insults from Vmarco, and had him drag their names through them mud, simply for disagreeing with him.

 

anamatva, ct, and others continually get called mentally dishonest, perverters of the truth, spoilers and so on, all because they dare to think for them selves.

 

 

I know some here find him interesting, and it seems he is already getting a few 'followers' who have decided that because of the sheer volume of his posts that he must know something, but any one who speaks loudly and constantly will eventually convince others that they really are on to something...

 

 

 

I personally can not put him on Ignore.

 

The reason is I grew up in a Cult. Vmarco speaks and relates just like the Cult leader.

 

I cant allow him to get away with some of what he is saying.

 

Sure there is 'truth' mixed into it, but that is not the part I am worried about. I am worried about all the layers of 'Vmarco' that are piled up on top of it.

 

I wont sit by while anyone BS's other people.

 

 

 

And as for staying on topic, is Vmarco allowed to Vmarco any thread because he is the all time authority on Buddhism/4thWay/toltec/newage/gnostic/acim/and any other subject he thinks he is a master of?

 

Why should one member be allowed to turn every thread he joins into a Vmarco/shortpath thread just because he collected some quotes from that source?

[3bob]

I understand what sounds like or could be taken as a sort of jibe... thus I suggest you take your own medicine or advice Ms.Cat.

[三江源]

I understand what sounds like or could be taken as a sort of jibe... thus I suggest you take your own medicine or advice Ms.Cat.

 

I'm sorry 3bob, your post is cryptic to me.

[三江源]

Seth.

 

I dont know what to say to you, you have so many projections about what you think I believe or feel or am doing. It seems as though you have created a story of me , which is nothing to do to me.

 

I'm sorry this has happened.

 

The moderator team has discussed this thread and I am not the moderator team, I am part of it.

 

For myself personally, I am mildly phased by you noticing which posts I like and logging that and then writing a story in your mind about who you extrapolate that I like and what I am doing as' a mod'. Rather than as a person, a human being.

 

I notice you used the word 'nanny' in terms of a note that presumably came via me to you and was a moderators note. I'm sorry I dont recall it, I have to write a lot of notes from the mod arena.

 

I offer back to you the concept you have introduced of Nannying as being one that lives in your mind and wonder wether your valiant defence of the truth for all the people who could be reading VMarco and suffering from his synthesis might possibly be where the Nannying urge is actually manifesting.

 

I appreciate that to Nanny means a mixture of nurture and contain. And I guess that is what is motivating you here.

 

Seth, your asumption is that those who get something from reading VM are 'followers'.. your denigration of those people.. doesnt seem respectful to me. You also assume that his 'followers' have started 'following' because of the sheer volume of hs posts... this also holds taobums members as .. how shall we say.. .. sheep like?

 

 

I bring up these two things, which are really just mirror examples, Seth.

 

Isnt it one of our tasks, to look in the mirror and laugh at what we are reading life and others as?

[Vmarco]

Seth, your asumption is that those who get something from reading VM are 'followers'.. your denigration of those people.. doesnt seem respectful to me. You also assume that his 'followers' have started 'following' because of the sheer volume of hs posts... this also holds taobums members as .. how shall we say.. .. sheep like?

 

 

Tonal and Nagual? Surely, the tonal would be in search of followers,...a nagual would most likely be not. For others reading this, I have no wish for followers. Even with one of my favorite hobbies, that is, leading hikes in the mountains near where I live, I generally lead from behind. I've already did the hike, thus don't need to be in front,...I've already seen the wow of what's around the corner, so why not let those who haven't, get an unobstructive view.

 

My posts on TTB are rather typical,...respond to, or present a point of view, along with supporting evidence or the similiar views held by others, that draws a contrast between relative, sentient beliefs, and absolute, sapiential insights. I do not suggest that any spiritual insights should be believed, but reduced. I never suggest that thinking should be accepted as fact, but challenge anyone reading to answer the question, "have you ever thought anyhing in the present?" Is not thinking always in the past?

 

I cannot lead anyone there, but can, and do, attempt to organize the discussion for the reader to go Further in their investigation.

 

Even the slightest notion that my motives posting here are of a teacher/follower nature is foreign to me,...and am constantly puzzled by the emotional charges spawned by some who read them.

 

I have little interests in tonal games. Over and over I've articulated in many ways that one of my favorite mottos is,..."relate with what will never you, and from which you can never leave. Of course, to most sentient beings such an idea threatens their sense-based beliefs. However, as this is a Daoist forum, I figure that many here would be interested in topics that delve beyond the senses.

 

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao-tzu

Edited January 2, 2013 by Vmarco

[C T]

Over and over I've articulated in many ways that one of my favorite mottos is,..."relate with what will never you, and from which you can never leave. Of course, to most sentient beings such an idea threatens their sense-based beliefs.

 

For the idea to actually fulfill its aim to threaten people's sense-based beliefs, first of all, the motto ought not to leave out words that make it quite meaningless, wouldn't you agree?

 

There is always the option to edit, you know? Just so those of us who have been labelled as sheep-like minds can grasp the meaning, which is what your aim is, true? To continue reinforcing the dualistic notion of there being sheeples (the relativers and the ad hominers, you like to brand us) and those VIP short-pathed celebs (the absoluters, ones like your esteemed bodhisattvic self haha) whose pastime is to incessantly fuel discriminatory attitudes (and not doing such a great job at that, having to resort to one cut n'paste after another)?

Edited January 2, 2013 by C T

[konchog uma]

Some of the nicest people on this forum have copped a ton of insults from Vmarco, and had him drag their names through them mud, simply for disagreeing with him.

 

anamatva, ct, and others continually get called mentally dishonest, perverters of the truth, spoilers and so on, all because they dare to think for them selves.

 

thanks for sticking up for me seth. Not sure i'm one of the nicest on the forum , but i'd guess i've caught the sharp end of vmarco's defamatory rhetoric. I say guess because unlike you, i am happy to ignore his posts. With every word that comes out of his mouth he embarrasses himself and misrepresents the dharma. I have never seen one of his preachy rants on any buddhist forum, probably because some part of his mind realizes that what he is espousing isn't actually vajrayana buddhism. lol thats what gets my goat personally, his misrepresenting the dharma by quoting the same sources, out of context, over and over and over, to justify a dogmatically geminate version of neo-dharma which he calls shortpath, in reference to vajrayana, when this new philosophy he is making up has nothing to do with tantric buddhism. Vajrayana is essentially nondual, and vmarco is still psychologically trapped in the duplicity of right and wrong, better and worse, his way and the ways of "believers" and "spoilers" et cetera. Every word that comes out of his mouth generates a schism between his way of thinking and anyone that disagrees, and every post he jumps into turns into an argument!! Its so obvious. Thats how i know he isn't a representative of the buddha-dharma, and that's why i will study my vajrayana from sources who have attained the degree of peace, acceptance, civility, and equanimity that is the hallmark of an actual spiritual teacher.

 

Its considered horrible form to misrepresent the buddha-dharma, and is just narcissistic to take ones own personal biases and prejudice and prop it all up onto the dharma and call your philosophy "buddhism" when all you do is attempt to divide people, cut those who disagree down with pejorative rhetoric, and carry on as if you were the one single enlightened being and everyone else had something to learn from you!

 

in actuality its a buddhist practice to carry on as if everyone else in the world were enlightened, perfect in every way, and that you are the last person who has not achieved enlightenment. In this way one can realize the inherent perfection of the vajra world and its inhabitants, and cultivate humility and beginners mind, the basis of enlightened mind. How far from this is vmarco?! There's some duality for you...

[Apech]

These are very important points when attempting to discern what those Heart-centered cultures were about.

 

A few extra points,...1. the Heart-Mind or Higher Consciousness was not (necessarily) the heart organ. Greeks and others associated it with the thymus gland. 2. The Heart-Mind or Higher Consciousness discussed in some branches of Buddhism, is not part of the 5 skandhas, which would include the 6 organs, such as the brain or organ of thinking.

 

For some, the Highter Mind or Heart was only accessible by means beyond the 6 senses or human sentience.

 

Even Lao-zu described the Heart as the seat of Spiritual Insight.

 

A problem today however, is that so many cerebral-centric belief systems have adopted a head-based heart model.

 

The Egyptians had two words for heart. 'hty' and 'ib' ... 'hty' means something like that which is in front (of the chest cavity) and became in late periods to be used exclusively for the physical organ, which 'ib' was used for the 'psycho-spiritual' centre or mind etc.

[GrandmasterP]

Imam Ahmad transmitted the hadiths of placing one's hands on one's chest in his Musnad and was certainly aware of the hadiths transmitted on this matter.

[idiot_stimpy]

Emptiness is the word, really, which is better to use than God, because with God we start feeling there is some person. So Buddha never used "God" he always used sunyata -- emptiness, nothingness. In the center you are a nonbeing, nothingness, just a vast space, eternally cool, silent, blissful.

 

- Osho

[GrandmasterP]

"In some places Buddha is worshipped like a God. There are only two types of people in the world: those who try to stuff their inner emptiness, and those very rare precious beings who try to see the inner emptiness. Those who try to stuff it remain empty, frustrated. They go on collecting garbage, their whole life is futile and fruitless. Only the other kind, the very precious people who try to look into their inner emptiness without any desire to stuff it, become meditators. Meditation is looking into your emptiness, welcoming it, enjoying it, being one with it, with no desire to fill it -- there is no need, because it is already full. It looks empty because you don't have the right way of seeing it. You see it through the mind; that is the wrong way. If you put the mind aside and look into your emptiness, it has tremendous beauty, it is divine, it is overflowing with joy. Nothing else is needed, certainly not Buddha".

(Osho)

Edited January 2, 2013 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

Or, for that matter; Osho.

(Me)

[idiot_stimpy]

I thought it was wonderful someone put, the tonal is the know, and the nagual is the unknown or that which cannot be know.

[3bob]

Spirit can not be known by the limits of mind, - more importantly Spirit knows Spirit, otherwise and in summation all would be the "Vanity of vanities".

[Vmarco]

For the idea to actually fulfill its aim to threaten people's sense-based beliefs, first of all, the motto ought not to leave out words that make it quite meaningless, wouldn't you agree?

 

There is always the option to edit, you know? Just so those of us who have been labelled as sheep-like minds can grasp the meaning, which is what your aim is, true? To continue reinforcing the dualistic notion of there being sheeples (the relativers and the ad hominers, you like to brand us) and those VIP short-pathed celebs (the absoluters, ones like your esteemed bodhisattvic self haha) whose pastime is to incessantly fuel discriminatory attitudes (and not doing such a great job at that, having to resort to one cut n'paste after another)?

 

,..."relate with what will never you, and from which you can never leave.'

 

C&P is a handy, practical tool,...why you're adverse to them is an interesting tell.

 

The motto above can be considered an absolute bodhicitta lojong,...nothing is missing, and it is sublime with meaning.

 

Why relate to things that will leave you, and from which you can leave? Is not that just nonsense of diversion, disconnection, and distraction? That which can never leave you is real,...not relatively real,...but absolutely real. Do you CT, understand a single thing that will never leave you? If not,...could you say why such might be meaningless?

 

What is a Sheeple? Is not a sheeple a follower of indoctrinations? Would it be better to call those who cling to their indoctrinations for their identity a more appeasing term? Let's call a spade a flower? Should such a term be threatening to anyone who wishes to examine their sheepleness?

[Vmarco]

I thought it was wonderful someone put, the tonal is the know, and the nagual is the unknown or that which cannot be know.

 

"Your ignorance and delusion are nothing strange, for it is difficult for logical thinking to understand peace." Buddha

 

It would be advantegous to tag tonal with knowledge,...however, Nagual should be tagged with Gnowledge, because the term unknowable can be confusing.

[ChiDragon]

For the most part, being impeccable with one's word is often unacceptable on TTB. For many, beliefs are more important than honesty.

 

A favorite quote about honest that I often use is: "Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

 

Yet so many cling to gods and divine delusions. Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Kalama Sutra, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion; that is, to not accept "sets of belief."

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.....religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."

 

Wise words of wisdom. If the people on TTB do not perceive these from here, then I don't know where.

[hydrogen]

Vmarco quoted Lao Tzu said, "Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.....religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."

 

Wise words of wisdom. If the people on TTB do not perceive these from here, then I don't know where.

 

Wrong quote. The correct one says "PARTIAL religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."

 

After all, taoism is a religion and Buddhaism is a religion now matter how you lable it.

 

Sorry about off the topic.