Taoism is not about the self

[Wayfarer64]

I believe that every spirit is already immortal. The attainment of Taoist immortality is the realization of this. There is no new gaining of being only awareness.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[thelerner]

Ah, but what is the spirit? There is a basic Me that is awareness, but there's a big chunk of Me that is my memories and ego. How much of that is immortal? How much should I want it to be immortal?

 

Michael

[MASTERforge]

I had a similar discussion on this topic a while back with my friend.

 

I said something along the lines of:

 

'perhaps when your body dies your spirit returns to its source. The source will probably be beyond human comprehension. Your memories may seem insignificant. Certainly you would have no bodily desires as they come from a bodies needs. No body = no bodily desires. You wouldnt even be male or female'

 

He replied and completly dumbfounded me with his response:

 

'If your memories, ego and earthly desires are left behind then what have you become? Something totally different from that what you were. Isn't that death?'

 

He had a point. Brain damaged people can have very different personalities than before their illness. Would that person before the illness be seen as dead if the person now with the damage bears no resemblence in personality traits?

 

What defines us is is largely earthly based. Anyone who has had any power or wealth then lost it can attest to this. They may also come to reasoning that these coporeal achievements are quite illusory.

 

A few years back I was living abroad and had a regular job. I was moving along just nicely until I was made redundant because it was a temporary post. I was abroad so everything I had previously defined myself by e.g. family, friends and society had completly changed. I had to do a lot of soul searching to find out who I was without these outside definitions.

 

I was flat broke living off rice and moldy peppers. I realised that whatever gain I may make in the future I can always survive on the bare essentials.

 

I believe this is why it is more beneficial to cultivate spirit than material possessions. Wealth comes and goes. But you take your spirit everywhere.

 

Perhaps you dont take your memories and ego to the next side but do you take your level of spiritual development?

[forestofsouls]

I believe that every spirit is already immortal. The attainment of Taoist immortality is the realization of this. There is no new gaining of being only awareness.

 

 

Why do you believe that?

 

The manifest weight of the evidence, from my perspective, is against that. Everything is moving, flowing changing. My thoughts arise and pass away, my attitudes, moods, and emotional postured arise and pass away. My body ages and changes. The earth itself is constantly changing, each day, each season. I am told that civilizations arise and pass away. Stars and planets arise and pass away. Physicists and biologists report that all our cells arise and pass away, that even atoms and molecules shift away, degrade, change.

[Taoist81]

Why do you believe that?

 

The manifest weight of the evidence, from my perspective, is against that. Everything is moving, flowing changing. My thoughts arise and pass away, my attitudes, moods, and emotional postured arise and pass away. My body ages and changes. The earth itself is constantly changing, each day, each season. I am told that civilizations arise and pass away. Stars and planets arise and pass away. Physicists and biologists report that all our cells arise and pass away, that even atoms and molecules shift away, degrade, change.

 

 

"To be at one with the Tao is eternal, though the body dies the Tao lasts forever." You and Lao Tzu seem to have similar patterns of thought.

[Starjumper]

I believe that every spirit is already immortal. The attainment of Taoist immortality is the realization of this.

 

I'm sorry, this definition is incorrect. The types of immortals and their different levels are all carefully detailed in Taoism, in order to get a clue check out this description on my forum: What is an Immortal

 

There is no new gaining of being only awareness.

 

I have NO idea what this means, can you explain?

[Lozen]

The Gnostic Gospels have some interesting information on this. I think it's the Gospel of Mary that discusses how after death everything returns to its root.

[Wayfarer64]

"Physicists and biologists report that all our cells arise and pass away, that even atoms and molecules shift away, degrade, change"

 

That is sort of my point... Even after our cells have died off (which happens every 7-8 years or so), there is still a conscious being within/without. My thoughts on this spring from a few out-of -body experiences and memories of pre-birth times and faces etc...

 

An interesting aside- is what happens with Alzhimer's, where the memory is gone but the body remains. The spirit could very well be vacated also...Who knows how such anomalies pertain to these questions, but they are worth looking into...

 

The difference to me is the difference between spirit and personality, what we are if/when we become immortal, is not what many may think it to be. Memories go with consciousness, the inner being has not become other, only the personality has been minimilized.

 

This having been said, I believe that manifesting Immortality on this plane of existance is surely possible.

 

I have friends who have played the part of immortals in parades in Taiwan, and they claimed a taking-over of their personality occured- much as fire-walkers on Bali go into trance and can withstand the fire etc...Consciousness of self is transformed.

 

The body/personality and spirit/consciousness can be seperated is my point...Personality is that which dies. Spirit, Life-force or Qi whatever we wish to call the manifestation of the Tao within us will go on. How seperate it remains from the rest of this energy is perhaps the question. Why would one wish to remain seperate as an entity?

 

Star-Jumper- Since you are kind enough to offer me a clue, I wonder how it is that you do not know the difference between being and awareness, one can be aware of a state of being, while not being in that state of being, or BE in a state of consciousness, and unaware that there are others)...

 

The search for immortality as I have often enough read of it here, sometimes seems to be counter to the concepts of building a productive life in the here and now. Craving a life beyond that of our fellow earthlings is a very hard and esoteric path to choose. I am only hoping that 50 years hence those who have spent so much time and effort in these questings are not disapointed by the lack of change within themselves, as they keep a hold on their personality and hope to change their spirit through their bodies. Letting go of the personality and strengthening the inner being is the idea as I understand it.

 

Manifesting consciousness changes/erases the personality, let your ego go and you will not be so presumptuous as to offer a clue to someone in an effort to make a point.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Wayfarer64