Dynamic vs still...

[joeblast]

Instead of worrying about what books define as this or that, let's revisit the OP before this completely devolves into a discussion about what the 84,000 different methods of cultivation are and what character signifies what. We might as well be writing about the atoms that make up the finger that might be pointing at the moon.

 

1. Do not move the body during meditation, sit still...

2. Let the body move during meditation, dynamic...

 

Pros&cons, opinions, experiences, etc...

IOTW, when sitting, is it imperative that you remain still, or if your legs get tired and cranky, "is it ok" to move them and stretch them out, get blood back into them....or if the qi in the central channel rises, is it ok to stretch upward (and I'd better not hear about "let's define what the central channel is)....or if your shoulder needs a little stretch, do you move your hand over to your knee?

 

What are the pros and cons of ignoring when your legs tell you they need more blood, etc?

[Marblehead]

What are the pros and cons of ignoring when your legs tell you they need more blood, etc?

Personally, I would never ignore something like this. IMO, if I feel my body while trying to attain an empty-minded state I am doing something wrong. Make adjustments until the body goes away.

[sree]

Instead of worrying about what books define as this or that, let's revisit the OP before this completely devolves into a discussion about what the 84,000 different methods of cultivation are and what character signifies what. We might as well be writing about the atoms that make up the finger that might be pointing at the moon.

 

Jox also asked for opinions relevant to meditation which is not like boiling eggs for breakfast. If your western mind wants to understand non-western matters, you need to think out of the box.

 

IOTW, when sitting, is it imperative that you remain still, or if your legs get tired and cranky, "is it ok" to move them and stretch them out, get blood back into them....or if the qi in the central channel rises, is it ok to stretch upward (and I'd better not hear about "let's define what the central channel is)....or if your shoulder needs a little stretch, do you move your hand over to your knee?

 

Yes, you may move about to address any discomfort as you settle down to meditation.

 

What are the pros and cons of ignoring when your legs tell you they need more blood, etc?

 

Don't ever ignore the body when it is talking to you about its grouses. Listen to it the way a mother listens to her beloved child to attend to its every need. Meditation is not a mental pre-occupation. It is a wholistic affair of absolute attention.

Edited December 28, 2012 by sree

[sree]

Personally, I would never ignore something like this. IMO, if I feel my body while trying to attain an empty-minded state I am doing something wrong. Make adjustments until the body goes away.

 

Actually, the body never goes away in real meditation. On the contrary, every sensation is heightened as the illusory boundary between mind and body fades away.

[Marblehead]

Actually, the body never goes away in real meditation. On the contrary, every sensation is heightened as the illusory boundary between mind and body fades away.

Hehehe. Don't tell me what I feel. You are starting to sound like a Buddhist.

[sree]

Hehehe. Don't tell me what I feel. You are starting to sound like a Buddhist.

 

Why do you say that? Are there different types of meditative states? I suspect there is concept of individualism at play here. I do this and you do that and nobody tells me what to do. In arithmetic class in America, the land of the free, are kids allowed to choose any answer they fancy to 1 + 1 = ?.

[ChiDragon]

Do you think there is any connection between 道德經 and 氣功 ?

 

No. I don't think 氣功 has anything to do with the 道德經. The reason some people thought so was because Lao Tze has mentioned 氣(Chi), as yin-yang, once in the Tao Te Ching.

[Marblehead]

Why do you say that? Are there different types of meditative states? I suspect there is concept of individualism at play here. I do this and you do that and nobody tells me what to do. In arithmetic class in America, the land of the free, are kids allowed to choose any answer they fancy to 1 + 1 = ?.

Comparing the objective against the subjective is not a fair comparison.

 

Yes, there are different forms of meditation.

 

Yes, there for sure is a concept of individualism at play here.

 

As to 'nobody tells me what to do' depends on the individual as well. If the person is attaining what they want from their meditation then they are doing it right. If not, then they are doing it wrong. Or maybe they need to try a different method.

 

Yes, 1 + 1 still equal 2. That's objective (based on numerical concepts).

[sree]

Haha it's ok. It's just that we're taught in the west to accept things like that but when it comes to wisdom and knowledge of unknown things we're taught to ignore it and say not to tell me what to do. Pretty twisted isn't it. That's why you learn to let go of the hate that you have towards people who couldn't understand deep wisdom if it hit them in the face.

 

Wow, you actually got it! You're damn right it's twisted. And they would twist the Tao Te Ching into a cockscrew just to get their wine out of the jug. It like the devil demanding entry into Heaven without given up his pitch-fork, horns and pointy tail.

[sree]

If the person is attaining what they want from their meditation then they are doing it right. If not, then they are doing it wrong. Or maybe they need to try a different method.

 

This is revealing. So, to you, the end justify the means?

This is a moral value of Scarface. "I don't care how you do it, just get it!"

 

With Chinese philosophy, there is a different value at play: the end is the means.

Edited December 28, 2012 by sree

[ChiDragon]

Yes, there are different forms of meditation.

 

If the person is attaining what they want from their meditation then they are doing it right. If not, then they are doing it wrong. Or maybe they need to try a different method.

 

Ahhh....

It sounds like duck hunting to me. I still cant figure out how the brain works from here. How many types of meditations are there? The brain only can think one way....??? I can see that I can alter my behavior differently if I change the logic in my thoughts; but to change my physical body with my thoughts...hmmmm...???

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

This is revealing. So, to you, the end justify the means?

This is a moral value of Scarface. "I don't care how you do it, just get it!"

 

With Chinese philosophy, there is a different value at play: the end is the means.

Well, apparently I have revealed myself. Accomplish the mission.

 

But I would question "the end is the means". I am sure it is just because I am a Westerner that is the cause of my not understanding. Or maybe it is because I was a career soldier. In my book, if you don't accomplish the mission you used the wrong means.

[Marblehead]

Ahhh....

It sounds like duck hunting to me. I still cant figure out how the brain works from here. How many types of meditations are there? The brain only can think one way....??? I can see that I can alter my behavior differently if I change the logic in my thoughts; but to change my physical body with my thoughts...hmmmm...???

No, we are not speaking of the same concepts. Likely I did not express myself properly. Yes, I have only one brain. I have only one body. My brain surely reacts differently than does yours from the same stimuli. Everyone's brain is not equal. Everyone's body is not equal. Similar, yes; equal, no.

 

I can alter your behavior as well as my own. This just requires the right conditions.

 

No, I cannot change my body, but I can change my mind.

[Marblehead]

Too much twisted. Not enough emphasis on the fundamentals. I just reside in my studies. All I have to do is cut off some distractions and I'll be good

I hope you two get untwisted pretty soon.

[Marblehead]

Thank you I am humbled.

 

And I am pleased that you took the time to seek an understanding and the time to respond in such a thorough manner.

 

And what I am about to say applies to 99.9~% of the members here. I was not attacking Sree. I was attacking the concept that was presented. I try very hard to not get personal while having a disagreement with another member.

 

It is pretty easy to talk about the objective. 1 + 1 = 2. The Earth is relatively round and it rotates around the sun while it also rotates around its own axis. The objective can be proven, in almost all cases, with systematic investigation.

 

The subjective is quite different. To any question of a subjective nature there may be as many different answers as there are different people on the Earth. And even though I love discussing subjective concepts, there really is no right/wrong judgements. Well, at least there should be no judgements of right or wrong.

 

I can see only through my eyes and I can understand only through my brain. I cannot see through Sree's eyes nor understand through his brain or anyone else's. To say that we of the West see things differently than those of the East is an extreme understatement. However, we can try to imagine what the other sees and we can try to understand why the other believes as they do.

 

Yes, back to meditation. This is an activity conducted by individuals. Individuals living in Western cultures and by individuals living in Eastern cultures. And each of these individuals living in these different cultures are different as well. And then there are different forms and methods as well as goals of meditation.

 

Now, sure, the form, method and goal of meditation of one person may be identical. But then, any one form that is 'perfect' for one person might be the worse form for another based on too many factors to even start talking about.

 

Except for self-hypnosis, I practice only one form of meditation. That is empty-minded meditation. I know how to do it. Chuang Tzu explains it in "The Chuang Tzu". Sometimes I attain empty-mindedness, sometimes I don't. But it works if I am able to let go of all the restrictors while trying to attain the state I desire (my goal).

 

Any method, no matter what, should be considered a good method if it has brought the meditator closer to their goal. The only bad methods of meditation are the ones that don't work for that particular individual. That is why I said that if the method any person uses is the "right" method if it is working for them and that if a particular method is not working for the individual they are either doing it wrong or they are using the wrong method. Basically I am saying that there is a "right" method for everyone. We just have to fine "our" "right" method.

 

So anyhow, it is not my intention to tell everyone the "Truth" but I will share my truths and I really believe that we all should have our own truths regarding subjective matters. Objective truths, however, are what they are and cannot be otherwise until they change, and afterall, everything changes, it's just that some changes take longer than do others.

[sree]

Well, apparently I have revealed myself. Accomplish the mission.

 

But I would question "the end is the means". I am sure it is just because I am a Westerner that is the cause of my not understanding. Or maybe it is because I was a career soldier. In my book, if you don't accomplish the mission you used the wrong means.

 

And what is that mission? The acquisition of the target in the battle plan based on intelligence from Taoist High Command?

 

Gullibility is a mortal sin (especially in the US Military when your life and those of your team are at stake). And it has nothing to do with the color of your mother's skin. No soldier who is or has been the Tip of the Spear of US Military muscle would accept failure in any mission. It is that serious - no mucking around - be it taking out Al Taqadam or entering the Void.

 

The end is the means. That's the mission, soldier.

Edited December 29, 2012 by sree

[Marblehead]

Gullibility is a mortal sin ...

I agree and you will never see that from me. No one ever saw that from me while I served my country.

[Marblehead]

The end is the means. That's the mission, soldier.

You are wrong. There are some things I will not do nor did I do them when I was active military. Not all soldiers are cannibals.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

I have to disagree with you saying that meditative states are completely subjective though.

I must have experssed myself poorly or inaccurately as this is not what I meant. Meditative states are objective.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think balance is best. Too much sitting can make someone stiff and inflexible. We need a good degree of freedom, like the Taoist monkey exercise for the kidney/water element, to balance and adapt while not loosing that stillness within, like the water trigram.

[Marblehead]

Yeah I agree. One should not only do sitting meditation but it is crucial to work out the body. One of the reasons of why external martial arts was made after all.

"use the false body to cultivate the real"

 

Ahh then I agree then. I thought you meant the opposite. I think what you were saying is that the chose of using a specific meditation method is individual. That's like no shit haha.

Hehehe. Yeah, we have an understanding now.

[sree]

You are wrong. There are some things I will not do nor did I do them when I was active military. Not all soldiers are cannibals.

 

Not all soldiers are soldiers anymore. It hurts those who care to see this painful truth and watch the destruction of the history, the proud traditions of this supreme organization, the US military. Not to mention the distant call to arms that would summon each and every one to the flag. Not anymore, because the nation has ceased to value its supreme asset and doesn't much care whether the best in the service stayed or left.

[Marblehead]

Not all soldiers are soldiers anymore. It hurts those who care to see this painful truth and watch the destruction of the history, the proud traditions of this supreme organization, the US military. Not to mention the distant call to arms that would summon each and every one to the flag. Not anymore, because the nation has ceased to value its supreme asset and doesn't much care whether the best in the service stayed or left.

Okay. Now you are talking reality and I can't argue against what you have said. When I retired in 1979 the US military was already changing into something I didn't like. Of course, that change is only a reflection of the changes in American society overall so it really isn't just a military problem. No, I can't do anything about it but then I didn't have to be a part of it and I am not.

 

Hehehe. BTW, we are still talking about dynamic vs stillness meditation. I'm not meditating right now.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Marblehead

[idiot_stimpy]

Can anyone comment on the Outer Rushen practice in terms of dynamic meditation?

[sree]

Okay. Now you are talking reality and I can't argue against what you have said. When I retired in 1979 the US military was already changing into something I didn't like. Of course, that change is only a reflection of the changes in American society overall so it really isn't just a military problem. No, I can't do anything about it but then I didn't have to be a part of it and I am not.

 

Hehehe. BTW, we are still talking about dynamic vs stillness meditation. I'm not meditating right now.

 

That is where you are wrong, my friend. If you know you are meditating, then you are not. But when you know you are not meditating, then you are.

 

I know how you hate being told what you know and what you don't, what you are doing and what you ain't. Mother(f--ker)s are like that. They are always telling Tommy what he likes and what he doesn't regardless of what Tommy says.