Depression

[mantis]

How would you approach this subject from a healing point of view? Can ayahuasca help?

[ShenLung]

Between a general funk and soul crushing despair, there are a lot of feelings that can be called 'depression'. Characterization of the symptom specifically, and then discernment of the cause must be done before any kind of treatment can be attempted. The cause may also be a symptom of a more general disorder. I would recommend in-person consultations with a legitimate healer.

 

Ayahuasca, and other ethnobotanicals are part of the shaman's tool kit, and the decision to use them or not use them, or when and under what circumstances is a decision best left to the shaman, if that is the healer that is being consulted. Solitary experimentation with these chemicals is not advisable regardless of one's mental state, and particularly if one is depressed.

[doc benway]

Totally agree with above. Ayahuasca can be very unforgiving and should not be used without guidance any more than potent pharmaceuticals.

 

Things that can help depression include -

- addressing situational triggers (most often relationship issues for women and career issues for men)

- mindfulness practices with guidance and support

- spending time in nature

- body related practices (taiji, qigong, yoga)

- physical exercise

- proper diet

- restoration of normal diurnal cycle

- meds (in cases associated with psychosis)

Edited December 26, 2012 by steve

[Mokona]

It's better to eat an over all healthy diet, I recommend oily fish and lots of green tea as they seem to help quite a bit: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fish-oil-supplements/AN01399

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/027553_green_tea_stress_reduction.html

[GrandmasterP]

How would you approach this subject from a healing point of view? Can ayahuasca help?

........

The problem with any herbal decoction is that that dosages of the active ingredients may vary wildly depending on all sorts of factors such as time or season gathered, cross pollination of the plant and whether or not (witn ayahuasca) a certain species of tree frog has widdled on it recently. There's little or no regulation to ensure quality of your ayahuasca as compounded by the local shaman.

All Mono amine oxidase inhibitors MAOI drugs (which ingredients of ayahuasca contain in varying strengths) can and are used to treat clinical depression but of you decide to go down the chemical treatment route then the proprietary western MAOIs as prescribed by a qualified doctor would be far safer.

Psychiatric meds in general now counsel a multi modal approach towards the treatment of depression involving a menu tailored to suit the patient and usually combining drugs, counselling and regular visits from a qualified psychiatric nurse to assess progress or otherwise.

Clinical depression is best treated by qualified medical practitioners with any adjunct complementary therapies just that.. Complementary NOT alternative.

Edited December 26, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[skydog]

peyote is powerful..I dont agree with all this terrified safety stuff..depression is low energy...many faceted approach to that

[GrandmasterP]

Trust an old psychiatric nurse Sinan, depression untreated can be a killer.

[skydog]

with respect I trust myself

 

Psychologists get paid millions for what Ive done myself through many hours of cultivation, they often have bullshit treatments that make things worse.

 

I didnt say dont treat it, I said there are many causes of depression

[suninmyeyes]

Are you physically healthy? Any complaints whatsoever? (this is more for you too adress for yourself..)

For example my collegue at work suffers from alzer and is clinically depressed despite having a good loving relationship, a flat and steady income -- she doesent know why is she depressed. I know that it is alzer in the stomach that is bothering her and make her feel that way and if only she would eat and drink stuff that would enable internal healing ,plus execrsise to built muscle that support the spine more--she would heal.

If you feel really pulled to try ayahusca ,than try it . Personally I have no experience with any of these plants,nor feel particular pull but have read that iboga is the one to treat depression. Keep in mind that it is best to do it with experienced shaman, same like getting normal medicine is meant to be done by a good doctor and not an automechanic.

[GrandmasterP]

I'll give you psychologists mate, they have a far higher suicide rate as a profession than most others.

A clinical psychiatrist though has had 10-years or more training and experience.

4-years for a psychiatric nurse and s/he can't fart unless the doctor says so.

No easy answers for depression more's the pity ; but sufferers are much safer being treated in qualified hands than amongst quacks.

[ShenLung]

........

The problem with any herbal decoction is that that dosages of the active ingredients may vary wildly depending on all sorts of factors such as time or season gathered, cross pollination of the plant and whether or not (witn ayahuasca) a certain species of tree frog has widdled on it recently. There's little or no regulation to ensure quality of your ayahuasca as compounded by the local shaman.

All Mono amine oxidase inhibitors MAOI drugs (which ingredients of ayahuasca contain in varying strengths) can and are used to treat clinical depression but of you decide to go down the chemical treatment route then the proprietary western MAOIs as prescribed by a qualified doctor would be far safer.

Psychiatric meds in general now counsel a multi modal approach towards the treatment of depression involving a menu tailored to suit the patient and usually combining drugs, counselling and regular visits from a qualified psychiatric nurse to assess progress or otherwise.

Clinical depression is best treated by qualified medical practitioners with any adjunct complementary therapies just that.. Complementary NOT alternative.

 

The variation in concentrations of active chemical in any given herbal sample is one of the reasons that, unless there is a very urgent need, some preparations are avoided. First, do no harm is a simple rule that seems to get forgotten in the rush to treat. A person who prepares a mind altering substance and then gives it to a 'patient' for later use is not a shaman - that is a drug dealer. The shaman will sit with the patient and guide them through the experience.

 

Perhaps a better job is being done across the pond, but here in the USA, the mental health profession has gotten into the habit of reaching for the prescription pad far too early. I feel that this is an abandonment of the first principle of medicine.

There are still good doctors, of course, but the number of well-educated pushers has grown to a societally unsafe level.

[GrandmasterP]

Not so bad here as in USA where big bad pharma has more clout and US doctors might be rewarded for pushing certain pharmaceutical products above others.

We are very lucky in our generics legislation where , within our National Health Service a generic alternative must always be prescribed over a proprietary product for the the same outcome. That saves billions a year quite literally, billions of pounds.

[ShenLung]

Not so bad here as in USA where big bad pharma has more clout and US doctors might be rewarded for pushing certain pharmaceutical products above others.

We are very lucky in our generics legislation where , within our National Health Service a generic alternative must always be prescribed over a proprietary product for the the same outcome. That saves billions a year quite literally, billions of pounds.

 

Not just the little rewards that the reps give the docs, but such an immense volume of new drugs coming out of the pill mills that it is difficult for even the more principled to keep up. The nurses who catch dangerous drug interactions after the scrip has already been signed .. the stories curl the hair.

 

Part of the problem may be in the way patent law works regarding medication. The last time I checked, a new medication could have two years before another manufacturer could duplicate it. Since the pharmacological companies always want to have the next hot new med, R&D keeps finding new ways to accomplish the same treatment with a different molecule.

Many beneficial medications started life as herbs, but one cannot patent a plant, except by the genetic designing of a new species. Instead of constantly designing new drugs that are farther and farther from what nature made first, the better meds should take nature, and provide a reliable and consistent dosage. Since these meds are not always produced here, one would have to import them from somewhere else ... but there are barriers to doing this, as well. Craziness.

[skydog]

Depression is not a thing it is a frequency of energy, it is an emotion, it can come back, it can be better one year than another. Some people experience more of this state than others.

 

It also depends who you define as a quack personally I lean less towards an enlightened shaman who spends days in bliss, peace and harmony being a quack and more towards a wealthy psycologist who spends all day analysing, rationalising and as you say has the highest suicide rate for any proffesion.

 

There are many things which attribute to this low state and this is what all of spirituality is about.

 

On one level it can be improved with simple shifts in paradigm such as "emptiness, being in the now, watching the watcher/I, being in the body"

 

Blockages of energy and emotions in the body and organs cause a lower frequency state and things such as Qigong (energy work) help to get rid of these obstructions. There are many kinds of energy work. I do stillness movement and gift of the Tao, others prefer breathing exercises or zhuang zhang, zazen or out with trees.. I also like activities such as dancing, ecstatic dance, drumming, listening to peaceful, high vibration music, painting, creating etc. The type of food one eats will affect their vibration I lean towards a vegan/vegetarian diet with as little processed, unnatural foods as possible with decent amounts of fruit and vegetables, I like to eat light as too much food affects my energy as the body takes energy to digest extra food. Blessing your food is helpful as is drinking filtered water and enough water in general. I dont like to eat past 6pm. I like to sleep during normal hours eg 10pm- 6am, I like to get enough sun everyday and even sungaze sometimes. I like to spend time in nature where there is good fresh air and oxygen rather than by a computer or on facebook. Exercise keeps the body healthy. Specific heart issues can be more easily focused with healing modalities such as shen healing, the healing codes or the yuen method. Specific lifestyle changes such as careers, area you live or friends you live with can affect your mood. Law of attraction and manifestation can help these things become easier and things like the sedona method or visualisation help. Some people will lean more towards that than do nothing "wu wei". Also the way you think about things can affect your energy so if you believe everything is in harmony right now, or that you are good enough right now, this affects your energy as does things like practicing kindness and appreciation. Habits such as porn, indulging in negative emotions etc can also be harmful. Also water fasting is very powerful.

 

I could issue a warning label with psychadelics but others have done this already and to me thats leaning too far towards "trying to be safe" which could deter you from trying something very powerful in my opinion. People dont seem to issue warning labels with medicines which actually "Ibogaine" is prescribed as a medicine except they have added 1 ingredient to it so they could patent it, made it illegal and charge something ridiculous like £9000 for one usage, peyote is relatively free.

 

 

 

 

I'll give you psychologists mate, they have a far higher suicide rate as a profession than most others.

A clinical psychiatrist though has had 10-years or more training and experience.

4-years for a psychiatric nurse and s/he can't fart unless the doctor says so.

No easy answers for depression more's the pity ; but sufferers are much safer being treated in qualified hands than amongst quacks.

Edited December 26, 2012 by sinansencer

[GrandmasterP]

We use herbal remedies quite a lot for stuff you'd not trouble the doc with such as mucillage of squill for chesty coughs, but the tried and tested ones, the old stuff .

Potters Herbal are excellent for supplies and our dear Queen (Gods bless her) is rumoured to be a great fan.

http://www.pottersherbals.co.uk/

Year by year the list shrinks as to what you can get hold of.

Will stop here don't want to take the thread too far away from depression but feel I have nothing to add on that cruelest of complaints.

Edited December 26, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Birch]

From experience, what is called 'depression' ought to be 'opened up' to talk about what it might be composed of. A grey 'flat' feeling cutting one off from both 'positive' and 'negative' feeling. An actual physical loss of energy. A crushing sadness. I have experienced them all and they each had different underlying triggers (a loss of a relationship, being screwed over in business, mistreatment by friends and family members, a death in the family). The thing they had the most in common is the way I blamed myself for not doing or being 'the right way' in each case. IME it has been in digging into these situations and looking at the way I treated myself as a result that has been the most conducive to getting over it.

 

 

---personal opinion alert---

 

 

[GreytoWhite]

Almost every drug that I have been prescribed for depression has had such negative side effects that I refuse to submit to a doctor's opinion on these things any longer.

[thelerner]

I don't think I've suffered from depression, but I do get bouts of melancholy. I think its a matter of being sensitive and empathetic in what can be a cruel world.

 

I think exercise helps. Sometimes there's just too much energy stuck in the head, negative thoughts circling like vulture. A hard work out sucks them out.

 

There's a tendency to look for exotic 'cures' before we've gone through the common, like eating right, getting enough sleep, just plain disciplining our mind.

[Birch]

What do you mean by 'disciplining the mind'?

[Immortal4life]

[ShenLung]

Speaking of side effects ... a While back, one of the major pharma companies noted a high incidence of smoking cessation in patients recieving one of it's anti-depressant medications. So ... they lowered the dose, repackaged the pill, got a new patent, and marketed it as a means of quitting smoking!

Plenty of people took the drug for this purpose, and it did help many in some ways .. but with the usual sleep disorders, mood alterations, and outright psychotic episodes.

[Immortal4life]

Whatever you do, overcome your shortcomings and weaknesses with natural methods only, period

http://researchmagazine.uga.edu/summer2005/prozac01.htm

Marsha Black has learned that sometimes the best way to see the big picture is to study the small details. The University of Georgia ecotoxicologist has examined water-quality issues for decades, spending most of that time trying to better understand the biological impact that pollutants can have on even the tiniest of aquatic organisms. Recently, she has turned her attention to a new concern — the steady deposit of antidepressant drugs such as Prozac into wastewater, their ultimate presence in creeks, streams, and other surface waters, and the consequent effects of these chemicals on wildlife.

 

Ironically, when Black’s collaborator, Mississippi State University scientist Kevin Armbrust, was younger, his father used to joke that “the world would be a better place if its drinking water supply had a little bit of Prozac in it.” But while Prozac and related medications offer hope to millions of people who experience a range of mental-health problems, such drugs have properties similar to other pollutants when they wind up in unintended places. And the damage they wreak on aquatic species there could be just as great. Black and Armbrust are discovering, for example, that when certain types of fish and frogs are exposed to “a little bit” of these medications, they experience problems that include slowed rates of development and a sluggish state that leaves them vulnerable to predators.

 

The intricate relationships among animals and plants that make up an ecosystem depend upon a certain balance. Therefore the question that haunts Black, Armbrust and others is: What happens to those organisms — and to us — if that balance is upset? “We used to think that only compounds in the water would harm humans, and only through direct exposure,” Black said. But scientists have come to realize that the harm may occur indirectly by disrupting ecological biodiversity.

 

Chemicals Out of Place

 

Up to 90 percent of many prescription drugs that humans consume ultimately find their way to sewage-treatment plants. While treatment plants that process drinking water remove these chemicals and their metabolic byproducts, these compounds pass through sewage-treatment facilities, which are designed to remove solids and bacteria but are not equipped to screen for pharmaceuticals. Armbrust, who is also the state chemist for Mississippi, was particularly taken aback by a 1999 paper in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives that documented a steady stream of pharmaceuticals — including Prozac and other selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, or SSRIs — being passed into the nation’s waters. SSRIs are among the 200 most-prescribed medications in the United States; the number of adults taking antidepressants has nearly tripled since Prozac was first introduced to the market in 1987, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

 

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/wildlife/fishfeminization.htm

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/Commentary/News/newspapers.htm

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb02/endocrine.html

Monday, July 18, 2005

 

Male smallmouth bass developing eggs in the Potomac, carp with low sperm counts in Nevada's Lake Mead and white suckers with male and female characteristics in Colorado's South Platte River have Pittsburgh researchers wondering what might be found in Western Pennsylvania's three rivers.

 

Starting this fall, several University of Pittsburgh researchers will hook 100 fish in the Allegheny, Monongahela and Ohio rivers and analyze them -- and the water and sediment where they swim -- for estrogenic compounds and other contaminants. Then they'll try to see what kind of effects those compounds, similar to those found in birth control pills, could have on humans.

 

"The fish are pretty much like the canary in the mine," said Dan Volz, a Pitt Graduate School of Public Health professor and lead investigator of the project, which will be paid for by DSF Charitable Foundation, the Heinz Endowments and the Highmark Foundation. Much like miners used to know lethal gases were present in mines when the sensitive caged canaries they brought along died, Volz thinks fish will give an early indication of problems in Western Pennsylvania's drinking water.

 

The compounds scientists believe are mutating fish might cause breast cancer and reproductive problems in humans, said Pat Eagon, a Pitt Cancer Institute professor participating in the study.

 

 

Study links antidepressants with birth defects

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9511980/

WASHINGTON - The Food and Drug Administration is warning that a study has suggested that the antidepressant Paxil may be associated with birth defects.

 

A retrospective study found increased numbers of babies born with birth defects to women who were taking Paxil during the first trimester of pregnancy, as compared with women on other antidepressants, according to the FDA and the company.

 

This included an increase in heart defects, according to a letter from GlaxoSmithKline to health care professionals.

[Birch]

Speaking of side effects ... a While back, one of the major pharma companies noted a high incidence of smoking cessation in patients recieving one of it's anti-depressant medications. So ... they lowered the dose, repackaged the pill, got a new patent, and marketed it as a means of quitting smoking!

Plenty of people took the drug for this purpose, and it did help many in some ways .. but with the usual sleep disorders, mood alterations, and outright psychotic episodes.

 

Thankfully this forum is anon so I can 'admit' that yes the above happened to me. I almost killed myself. In exactly the above circumstances.There have been class action suits over this but given the stigma attached to mental health (and the poking about into personal history that is bound to be gotten into in such a case) I decided it was a bad idea.

[Owledge]

How would you approach this subject from a healing point of view? Can ayahuasca help?

Depression has its roots in the mind. When you take ayahuasca, your mind will process the experiences made. A depressive mind will process them from that standpoint. I think a crucial part of the healing procedure is to set the mind aside, and that might be more difficult in a depressed state.

The Santo Daime church gives you a questionnaire and wants to know whether you have been treated for depression. It's an added risk.

I think if you have a tendency to take what you see during a psychedelic trip as literal truth, it might not be wise to do it.

It's the stuff flying under the radar that does the profound healing.

[ShenLung]

Mantis, please forgive me. In the rush to discuss the topic, I failed to ask; is this information for you, to aid you with depression, or for you to have some tools to help someone else with depression? Spouting ideas like a fountain might provide some useful answers, but the more detail that you can give the room, the better focused the answers will be.