Xing性 and Ming命, Essence and Life, in the DDJ

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Wondering if people would be interested in discovering the appearance, use, and meaning of Xing性 and Ming命, Essence and Life, in the Dao De Jing. These terms were very central to some Quan Zhen Taoist writings.

 

The only instance I know of currently is the description of Ming in Chapter 16.

 

Does anyone know of others, or perhaps even have some type of search engine that can find these characters in the chapters?

 

thanks

 

he

[dawei]

Xing does not appear in the DDJ. And as you point out, Ming is in 16 but also in 53.

 

Vincent Shen in The Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy, Laozi, says that that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性).

 

The alchemic relationship of Xing-Ming was probably developed later and outside of Laozi's thought.

 

 

http://www.all-dao.c...st-alchemy.html

 

http://laoziacademy.us/wangtj.pdf

Edited December 27, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Vincent Shen in The Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy, Laozi, says that that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性).

 

Do you believe that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性)...???

I definitely hope not. He was way off basis.

 

From a linguistic point of view.

1. 性(xing) is the nature or character of a living thing.

2. 命(ming) is the life of a living thing.

3. 性命(xing ming): is the life of a living thing.

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

Do you believe that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性)...???

I definitely hope not. He was way off basis.

 

From a linguistic point of view.

1. 性(xing) is the nature or character of a living thing.

2. 命(ming) is the life of a living thing.

3. 性命(xing ming): is the life of a living thing.

now keep going, relate them to alchemical practice

[ChiDragon]

now keep going, relate them to alchemical practice

 

Well, I don't like to mix things up to confuse the issue like others. All the thoughts must be kept separate to avoid confusion. Why do you like to mix everything up where they don't belong....???

 

 

This is a linguistic discussion, why must you have a tendency to contaminate all the subjects with your own stupidity...???

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Do you believe that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性)...???

I definitely hope not. He was way off basis.

 

From a linguistic point of view.

1. 性(xing) is the nature or character of a living thing.

2. 命(ming) is the life of a living thing.

3. 性命(xing ming): is the life of a living thing.

Yes.

 

I think it is explained fairly well here:

http://www.imperialt....net/daoism.htm

 

 

Realize that the OP stated: "These terms were very central to some Quan Zhen Taoist writings."

 

 

This is a linguistic discussion, why must you have a tendency to contaminate all the subjects with your own stupidity...???

 

It is not simply a linguistic discussion. You are trying to force it that direction. Based on what the OP comments, it is also an alchemy discussion.

 

http://en.wikipedia....Quanzhen_School

 

The meaning of Quanzhen can be translated literally to "All True" and for this reason, it is often called the "All Truth Religion" or the "Way of Completeness and Truth." In some texts, it is also referred to as the "Way of Complete Perfection." Kunyu mountain in Shandong provice Weihai city is the birthplace of Taoism(Quan Zhen Religion).[2] With strong Taoist roots, the Quanzhen School specializes in the process of "alchemy within the body" or Neidan (internal alchemy), as opposed to Waidan (external alchemy which experiments with the ingestion of herbs and minerals, etc.). The Waidan tradition has been largely replaced by Neidan, as Waidan was a sometimes dangerous and lethal pursuit. Quanzhen focuses on internal cultivation of the person which is consistent with the pervading Taoist belief of Wu Wei, which is essentially "action through inaction."

 

Like most Taoists, Quanzhen priests were particularly concerned with longevity and immortality through alchemy, harmonising oneself with the Tao, studying the Five Elements, and ideas on balance consistent with Yin and Yang theory.

Edited December 27, 2012 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Xing does not appear in the DDJ. And as you point out, Ming is in 16 but also in 53.

 

r u sure? I don't see it there. In which version?

 

 

Vincent Shen in The Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy, Laozi, says that that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性).

 

Based on the descriptions of Xing from your links, I can definitely see how he makes that parallel.

 

 

The alchemic relationship of Xing-Ming was probably developed later and outside of Laozi's thought.

 

 

http://www.all-dao.c...st-alchemy.html

 

http://laoziacademy.us/wangtj.pdf

 

Not so sure. After reading both links, my sense of the two has maybe stretched a bit, but not really strayed from my previous perceptions of Ming as described in Chapter 16. They were certainly and especially helpful in seeing the differences between Xing and Ming, however.

 

It would be interesting to look at the similaries in descriptions of De in the Dao De Jing, and Xing in the alchemical texts, though I'm not sure how far we'll get with the pressures to conform and reduce them to a dry and materialistic, commodified, literalistic, and limited "word."

 

The purpose here is finding the various things they could mean, and what they seem to have meant to later Alchemists, rather than finding and agreeing on any single English word to replace them.

 

I think for terms like this to be effectively translated, they are better done so with 5 or more words, rather than one, anyway.

[ChiDragon]

Linguistic and religion are two different subjects. The OP is about two characters, they can appear in any literature. You just can't say that they are related somehow. If you want to talk about alchemy, then you should use the proper terms to begin with. I wouldn't force something to fit with a hammer. We have plenty of alchemy discussion elsewhere. This is definitely not the place to do it here. I believe this is the Tao Te Ching section.

[joeblast]

right, I forgot, ttc doesnt involve alchemy at all if you want to stick to scholarly translation devoid of ancient meaning, I'm sure there's forums out there that have that as their aim.

[ChiDragon]

This is definitely not the place to do it here. I believe this is the Tao Te Ching section.

[joeblast]

hate to point out the obvious, but,

 

Discussion focused specifically on Taoist teachings, particularly those found in available texts of the Taoist canon and as expressed through Taoist cultivation practices

 

you've got an attachment to being correct.

 

much like I have a minor attachment to having to call people out when they assert things that arent true in the generally accepted context the discussion relates to or ya know, "insights" brought about by putting one's head in a few books, as opposed to having it come from rigorous practice-experience.

[dawei]

Sorry... Ch. 51: 夫莫之命而常自然 - Wang Bi version

 

Ok... I get your point.

 

 

@Chidragon:

 

here is another link: http://silenttao.com...-xing-and-ming/

 

 

Just to summarize: The topic, from my understanding, is how do the later ideas of Xing-Ming (Quan Zhen Taoist writings for example) possibly originate from the DDJ?

 

Although I might agree that most alchemy threads may not belong in this sub-forum, this is asking specifically to explore the origin of Xing-Ming ideas in the DDJ. I would tend to leave the thread here and see where it goes. This is not often discussed about the DDJ and while I can predict there will be disagreement, it may be interesting nonetheless. Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Embryonic Breathing has many references to the DDJ. Most (if not all) of alchemy texts clearly have regard for the DDJ as the source of understanding.

 

IMO, from an alchemy point of view... this is a natural (and necessary) investigation for understanding the influence of the DDJ.

Edited December 27, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

This is another one of those misleading from blind to blind. This is as far as I can go on this thread.....

here is another link: http://silenttao.com...-xing-and-ming/

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

H.E: Ok... I walked away and had a game of racket ball and it seems fairly clear to me... here is Occum's Razor applied.

 

I often want to see the transformation and microcosm in understanding such issues. but it's seems simple enough to me.

 

Alchemy is about transformation but more specifically the return path. So we should look at the entire circuit.

 

The Great Way: Tao <-->Wu/Void<-->Spirit/Shen <--> Energy/Qi <--> Physical/Jing

 

Jing is also referred to as 'essence' and is the physical aspect. So I can see the easy microcosm relation to essence as Xing (essential nature--physical)... and spirit as Ming (eternal nature--Tao).

 

To show transformation in the DDJ is easy... It is one of the main messages throughout... Not sure I actually have to do show passages for it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions here Dawei.

 

I really need to get into the images in chapter 51, as it is also all about De, with the line about Ming.

 

Since we're talking about the influence of the Dao De Jing on Alchemical treatments of Xing and Ming, note the similarities between this, the only other appearance of Ming in the Dao De Jing, and the opening lines of Secret of the Golden Flower:

 

from Chapter 51:

夫莫之命而常自然

 

to the opening lines to Secret of the Golden Flower:

自然曰道。道無名相。一性而已。一元神而已

 

The stanza in the DDJ is often understood rather differently than that from the SGF.

 

自然 in the SGF is understood to mean "Naturalness" as it basically says "Self/True or True-Self."

 

The same characters in DDJ are all but overlooked it seems, as 90% of scholarly understandings don't seem to take much more than official guesswork for authority. There is no 123 or 4 next to characters to determine exactly which word they referred to, so one person see's one things, while initiates might still see something further. This is part of the scriptures of every mystical tradition, from Sufism, to Christianity, to Kabbalah, and of course alchemical Taoism.

 

道之尊,

德之貴

夫莫之命而常自然

 

This is usually understood along the lines of

"Yet the way is revered and virtue honored 莫not because this is 命decreed by any authority but because it is natural for them to be treated so." (translated by D.C. Lau)

 

This does seem to make obvious literal sense, but comparing the way Ming is described in Chapter 16, basically "returning to the foundation called Peaceful Harmony," and seeing the image of sunset 莫 here makes me wonder if there was a similar message to be found here.

 

 

 

The similarities of De in the this chapter to both xing and ming are very interesting.

[dawei]

Haven't had any time to follow up but a quick note as I did a quick check: In chapter 53, 'Ming' was not the original character... so the later exchange to Ming may mean that the usage in 53 will not be compared to the use in 16(?).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Haven't had any time to follow up but a quick note as I did a quick check: In chapter 53, 'Ming' was not the original character... so the later exchange to Ming may mean that the usage in 53 will not be compared to the use in 16(?).

 

Yeah, I think you're right.

 

Seems if there's much hope for this thread beyond Chapter 16, it will be finding the parallels between Xing and De

[dawei]

I wanted to back up and look at some more background on this and to see if embryonic breathing [EB] (from Yang's book) shares anything. While not explicitly mentioning Xing-Ming as a dual-training method it is clear there are similarities. I suspect is it really all part of the same idea with [EB] simply the early precursor to later Xing-Ming training. Will comment later after some more comparisons.

 

This lead me to some more interesting links and a reminder of a Guodian Document: Xing Zi Ming Chu 性自命出, which has a very interesting passage:

 

Dao begins in Qing

Qing arises from Xing

Xing issues from Ming

Ming descends from Heaven

 

While this dates back to the Guodian Lao Zi, it is a Confucian text but shows how close the early thinking may of been between Confucians and Daoist (an argument I have see many times due to the Guodian findings).

 

Confucians emphasized Qing-Xing and eventually Ming-Tian(Mandate of Heaven) but Daoist would later emphasize Xing-Ming in regards to Dao.

 

 

 

Xunzi in light of the Guodian Manuscripts

http://lucian.uchicago.edu/blogs/earlychina/files/2008/07/ec25_goldin.pdf

 

 

Principes of Xing-Ming

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Awesome. I've got some reading to do then

[dawei]

Ok... so it all ties together for me. Ken Cohen paraphrases Xing Ming as "body and spirit".

 

And this shows a history for embryonic breathing [EB] as earlier and Xing Ming being a later extension and further development.

 

http://world-news-research.com/NeidanTantra.html

 

 

How the DDJ is the basis for this goes without question. There are a number of chapters which could be looked at and it will be easier to show the EB relationship, IMO, as I've read more on that but but I'm now game to share and discuss the connections.

[dawei]

H.E. Based on what I've read, it may be better for me to start another thread to separate out some generalities of the DDJ's influence on inner practices and let this thread look specifically at Xing and Ming.

 

I will add that I think I got the Xing Ming association backwards. While I said that V.Shen equates De with Xing (Confucian's), I should of also shown that Xing is equated to higher aspect.

 

I said the below but not sure this truly equates to Xing Ming as you are investigating.

 

The Great Way: Tao <-->Wu/Void<-->Spirit/Shen <--> Energy/Qi <--> Physical/Jing

 

Jing is also referred to as 'essence' and is the physical aspect. So I can see the easy microcosm relation to essence as Xing (essential nature--physical)... and spirit as Ming (eternal nature--Tao).

 

 

I associated Ming with Spirit but that may be Confucian thinking as the other quote I shared: Xing from Ming... Confucians saw Ming as the 'mandate from heaven' (higher) whereby man has a 'contract' to align himself (Xing) through effort.

 

I wanted to show the general relationship of the DDJ to inner practices but that will distract from Xing Ming in the mean time. So do you want me to start another thread on that?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hey Dawei

 

yes another thread might make a bit more freedom for that.

 

I've been slow on this thread as I want to read that Burton Rose translation but can only access it from home. It might be a bit longer before I can make anything resembling a meaningful contribution, but I am reading.

 

thanks

[dawei]

Two interesting comments I found:

 

 

Foundations of Inner Alchemy: Awakening to Reality

Zhang Boduan’s works show that, in his view,

1) the first stage of the alchemical practice (“laying the foundations”) consists of the dual cultivation of Xing (Nature) and Ming (Life).

2) The second stage (“refining Essence to transmute it into Breath”) emphasizes the work on Ming.

3) In the third stage (“refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit”), the work on Xing has priority on the work on Ming.

4) Finally, in the fourth stage (“refining Spirit to return to Emptiness”) one works only on Xing.

-- Fabrizio Pregadio

 

 

The Classics of Inner Alchemy:

Robinet is cited to say: without ming, xing will forever be stuck in inactive emptiness; without xing, ming will never attain perfect non-action.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

From "Xing Ming Gui Zhi" trans by Burton-Rose:

 

i.23

 

 

Body, mind, and intention are called the “Three Families.” If the Three Families

call upon one another, the embryo is perfected.

 

Essence, qi and spirit are called the “Three Originals.” If the Three Originals integrate into one, the elixir is achieved.

 

Absorb the three and return to one in the void-quiescence. Empty your mind, then spirit and

innate disposition[Xing] integrate. Still your body, then essence and emotion are still. Greatly

fix your intention, then the Three Originals combine into one.

 

The integration of emotion and innate disposition[Xing] is called “the combination of metal and wood.”

 

The integration of essence[Jing] and spirit is called “the joining of water and fire.”

 

The setting of intention is called “the completion of the Five Phases.” Nevertheless essence transforms into the qi by means of the stillness of the body. Qi transforms into spirit by means of the stillness of the mind. Spirit transforms into the Void by means of the stillness of the intention.

 

Interesting that “the combination of metal and wood” could be referring to uniting 3 hun (heavenly) and 7 po (earthly) spirits, being hun/liver/emotion with po/lungs/metal, possibly making innate disposition/Xing somewhat related to the 3 heavenly po spirits.

 

Seems that this phrase puts Xing as a metal elemental.

 

a few other notes to remember:

Intention/yi is associated with the spleen/earth and the zhi/will is associated with the kidneys/water.

 

The process involved here reminds me, once again, to the mention of Ming in DDJ Chapter 16.

[dawei]

If one considers the arrangement of the five organ-spirit association, then add in hun-po... your right: Xing will be the metal element. Very interesting.

 

 

I don't know that the idea of 'fire and water' and 'wood and metal' (Hun and Po) equate exactly to Xing-Ming. But there is a relationship going on.

 

Xing Training: Connecting the real self to original spirit

Ming Training: Strengthening the self (health, will, etc)

 

Most everything I read corresponds to 'combining fire and water first harmonize. Then the transformation of Jing>Qi>Shen>Dao;

 

1. Fire<>Water (Xing-Ming)

2. Jing>Qi (Ming).

3. Qi>Shen(Ming and Xing);

4. Shen>Dao (Xing).

 

I read that when Qi-energy is pure, Po follows Hun; Otherwise, Hun is following Po.

 

Two DDJ Chapters come to mind:

 

DDJ25: PO [Man > Earth >] follows HUN [Heaven > Dao > Naturalness]

 

DDJ10:

載營魄抱一 : Carry Ying-Po by embracing One.

 

Zai Ying Po Bao Yi

 

Ying Po as male and female spirits: As body and soul; Yang and Yin; Hun-Po.

 

Bao Yi is an ancient exercise

Edited January 5, 2013 by dawei